RE: The American Culture

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WyrdRich -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 3:32:16 PM)
Our culture is as broad and diverse as the continent wide landscape we inhabit. Look for the ‘real’ US in the things we take for granted. We expect prosperity to such a degree that even the poorest among us have color TV, and the biggest health problem among so-called ‘impoverished’ Americans is obesity. We expect individual liberty. We expect the rule of law. When we flip a light switch, or turn on a faucet, the light and water had better flow, or we expect someone to answer the phone and tell us why not, how long until, and offer an apology. Many of us have precisely zero appreciation for just how good we have it

subrob1967 -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 3:39:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent This is an interesting post, but one relative to the rest of the world so I'll take a crack at it. I wouldn't disagree that Americans value self-determination and personal responsibility, but I would guard against making the assumption that the rest of the world doesn't value these core attributes. There is a certain level of misunderstanding here, which is natural due to cultural reasons. Who's assuming? Where did I state that the rest of the world didn't relish these values? I was stating my opinion about what American values, and culture were. quote: I don't think your post is unique to the US. I value personal responsibility as much as anyone and self-determination more than most. I think we simply have a different view of how these things are achieved. For example, IMO, providing for those we care about most can only be achieved if we account for the environment. Unless you're prepared to build a fence around your house with machine guns to keep the world out, the world will encroach on our ability to keep our families safe. This is why Europeans have respect for the rule of law - it is an attempt to manage the outside world while maintaining our civil liberties and personal space. I personally "do not need the government to take care of me", but what I do need the government to do is manage the rest of society so when I'm down the pub enjoying a beer with my mates, the bloke down the street is not breaking into my house raping my wife or murdering my kids. It doesn't matter how much we say we go it alone, the reality is we all need help - in terms of law, justice, education etc. At some point in our lives we have all benefitted from government programmers. In my book, the best way to look after my family is maintaining my freedom and civil liberties while helping to create a society that manages the outside world - if everyone is running wild, sooner or later someone within your family will face the consequences. SubRob, from your post, I think it's you who doesn't understand the outside world rather than the outside world not understanding you. For example, "the socialists don't get us" - the ironic statement of the century. Back on topic, it'll be interesting to read how Americans view their country in relation to the rest of the world. Again, the question was about how the rest of the world perceives American culture, not about whether or not you espoused the same culture, and values. I understand the "outside world" well enough to know that most non American's don't understand our second amendment, and gun culture. I also understand that neither pure Capitalism, or Socialism aren't the answer to societies Ill's, and some type of balance needs to be struck for a nation to prosper, and succeed. Socialists just don't get capitalism, including our own home grown ones, and I find it ironic that you think this statement is ironic.

Sinergy -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 3:47:45 PM)
I will take a stab at this. I do want to say that generally I agree with the posting and I AM an American. quote: ORIGINAL: DCWoody Education system is awful beyond belief....and because of this so is the level of ignorance. We became the leaders in science and engineering when various Democratic leaders going back to Johnson and Kennedy poured money in to science and technology. While the reason for this was not something I consider particularly noble (Fighting Communism) it was done. I would have preferred something more in line with the Age of Enlightenment in Europe, but I am one of those silly tree hugging peaceniks. Every Republican administration and Congress we have had during that time has systematically dismantled it. I see education as being foresighted. You educate the people today you will need to develop things 15-20 years from now. The current administration is completely ham-strung by a belief that there is no reason to think out past 90 days. What will happen in 15-20 years is that our country will be filled with uneducated dolts. quote: Seem to just accept, beyond moaning a bit, ridiculous actions/performances by the govt. Jefferson almost succeeded in establish a truly ineffectual government system, hamstrung by the concept of checks and balances. What has happened with the rise of the corporatocracy is any attempt to change anything by the citizens faces a vast amount of money attempting to prevent movement, which simply adds to the general difficulty of Congress to actually do something. I like Jefferson's approach, and perhaps the "Yer fired" election of 2006 shows that people in the United States are starting to waken from their slumber. quote: Race is a big issue.....big big issue....you guys are still talking about when slavery was about. It is safer to focus on race than economic inequities. People find it easier to rail against the black people who work at Walmart and require government subsidies to exist than they are at passing laws to force Walmart to pass a living wage. People cannot help being black, which absolves anybody who objects from having any personal responsibility to change things. It requires a huge amount of effort to pass laws to make Walmart behave, and failure to do so implies one is being irresponsible. quote: A large percentage of the population seem to be constantly living from paycheck to paycheck....also a digustingly large number of people living in poverty/homeless. Rather than keep pace by forcing a living wage, our government systematically inflates our currency to overcome the debt problem they have. For example, if I borrow $1000 (in real value) from China today, then inflate my currency so it is only worth $500 in real value, I have just profited by not having to pay back that other $500 in real value. What this means is I made $7.50 an hour as a laser welder in 1979. I made $25.00 an hour in 1990. If it was not for the fact that I only worked 8 hours a week in 1979, I would be able to buy a lot more with the money I earned in 1979 than in 1990. To clarify, within 3 months of starting my laser welding job I bought my first car, I was taking my girlfriend in high school out for expensive dinners, and I had a complete SCUBA outfit I purchased new. quote: Big usa cities consider themselves tolerant but are in reality only tolerant of big usa city values. I am not really sure what this means. We have a few big cities, but with urban sprawl, white flight, offshoring of companies, and the movement of our manufacturing base out of large cities, I would be hard pressed to figure out what a big city value is. quote: Everything I hear suggests to me that the police are scum. Some are. Some arent. quote: Ridiculous lawsuits. While this is probably true to some degree, at least we in the United States have the ability to obtain redress for damages caused by other people and corporations. When Chevron killed all those people in Bhopal, India, they had to sue in US courts to get money from Chevron. quote: I have thought of something positive to say.....optimism, very optimistic outlook. Difficult to remain positive, but it does beat the alternative. quote: California seems to have a very separate culture to the rest.....although there are variations all over the place of course. Cali seems to really stand out. California, Oregon, and Washington tend to have a distinctly different culture than the rest of the country. Although one could say the same thing about other parts of the country. I have a co-worker who grew up in Baton Rouge. She says that much of Louisiana considers New Orleans a cultural anomaly which has no business in their state, whereas many in New Orleans feel the same way about the rest of Louisiana. Whether the cultural differences are considered positive or negative is relative; there are posters on here who want to hacksaw California off from the rest of the country because they dislike our culture. Of course, the same could be said about Californians on here who are developing plans for Pacifica; the sawing off of California from the rest of the country because we dislike their culture. Sinergy edited for typo

NorthernGent -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 3:49:12 PM)
Fair enough. The OP mentions US culture and the "American dream". I took this to mean peculiarly US culture, rather than Western culture. Obviously you did not. Out of interest, who are these socialists you mention?

cyberdude611 -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 3:50:55 PM)
The United States is a nation of immigrants. So there is no definite culture. And the reason the US has grown so powerful so fast has a lot to do with the location. The US resides in a stable part of the globe. There is practically no threat of invasion due to having an ocean on each side. Civilizations like Ancient Egypt lasted so long primarily because they had natural barriers. Until the Romans came along with their superior military, it was difficult for any army to really gain any ground in Egypt. The only threat Americans face in the world today is terrorism and nuclear weapons. Which is why the US Military is right now attempting to limit other nations from engaging in those activities. Domestically, it is a capitalistic society. Socialism and communism are curse words in a political campaign. A snowball has a better chance of living in hell than a socialist has at winning an American election. Over the past 50 years, with maybe the exception of Jimmy Carter, all US presidents have been either moderate or right-wing.

thompsonx -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 3:51:50 PM)
Mr.Lane: Your position that WWII was won largely because of U.S, industrial might is somewhat off the mark. The U.S, and its industrial might was really a minor player in WWII. As for the world being communist but for the U.S. seems more than a little farfetched. What I have noticed is that political systems do not export very well, be they of the left or the right or someplace in the middle. Thompson

subrob1967 -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 3:56:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Out of interest, who are these socialists you mention? Hillary Clinton, Noam Chomsky, Al Franken, and to a lesser extent John Kerry and Ted Kennedy.

thompsonx -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:04:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich Our culture is as broad and diverse as the continent wide landscape we inhabit. Look for the ‘real’ US in the things we take for granted. This would be the landscape we stole from those who were weaker than us. We expect prosperity to such a degree that even the poorest among us have color TV, I was unaware that they made black and white tv sets any more. A used color tv cost $20 at most any swap meet hardly making it a signature of wealth and prosperity. Less costly than a subscription to a newspaper. and the biggest health problem among so-called ‘impoverished’ Americans is obesity. Obesity is nation wide and not just among the "so called impoverished" It has more to do with the type of food that is marketed as opposed to what is healthy. We expect individual liberty. We expect the rule of law. Except where the government is concerned. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper" George W Bush on the constitution. When we flip a light switch, or turn on a faucet, the light and water had better flow, or we expect someone to answer the phone and tell us why not, how long until, and offer an apology. In all but the smallest utilities in east podunk you will most likely get a recording that will keep you on hold until you get tired of it and hang up. When was the last time a civil servant apologized to you? Many of us have precisely zero appreciation for just how good we have it To compare ourselves to another country makes little sense...lets compare ourselves to what our potential is. thompson

meatcleaver -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:05:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich We expect prosperity to such a degree that even the poorest among us have color TV, and the biggest health problem among so-called ‘impoverished’ Americans is obesity. These aren't specifically American problems but an idiot eye in the corner of the room and no books on the shelf, in my book, is poverty, as is fat in the fridge and no fruit on the table. Actually this seems to be current Anglo-Saxon culture and a good way of keeping the poor off the street protesting and on their fat arses stuffing their faces thinking they have got it real good. This is junk culture and it is a poverty of spirit.

Phantm173 -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:10:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Mr.Lane: Your position that WWII was won largely because of U.S, industrial might is somewhat off the mark. The U.S, and its industrial might was really a minor player in WWII. As for the world being communist but for the U.S. seems more than a little farfetched. What I have noticed is that political systems do not export very well, be they of the left or the right or someplace in the middle. Thompson Most historians, especially most military historians, would disagree with you on that. John Keegan, the great British military historian, has repeatedly noted that the Battle of Atlantic started turning towards the allies in March 1943 due in part to an increase in U-Boat sinkings, but mainly because American industrial might made it possible to produce transport ships faster than the U-Boats could sink them. Thus, the necessary material (and troops) could be sent to Europe. Similarly, in the Pacific, the U.S. was able to replace the capital ships it lost in the first year of the war (and in other major battles) whereas the Japanese were not able to do so. Thus, by the middle of the war, the Japanese simply did not have the carriers and planes to stand up to American fleets. Other examples: the U.S. had fleets of strategic bombers (B-17 and B-29) whereas the Germans and Japanese didn't. The U.S. was able to grind out large numbers of fighters that the Japanese and Germans couldn't match. In almost every land battle of Western Europe, the U.S. (and allied) troops had more artillery, more machine guns, and more ammunition than did the Germans -- and it made a difference. The same was true on the Eastern Front, where American supplies, combined with large numbers of Russian troops, made the difference. Perhaps the best example is the tank. The American Sherman tank was vastly inferior to the German tanks. BUT, the U.S. and British could field 10 or 11 tanks to each German tank, and the Shermans were able to simply smother the German tanks.

thompsonx -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:11:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Out of interest, who are these socialists you mention? Hillary Clinton, Noam Chomsky, Al Franken, and to a lesser extent John Kerry and Ted Kennedy. subrob1967: I would have thought that Donald Trump, Ted Turner, Archer Daniels Midland and The Rockefeller gang would have been a better example of socialist than the ones you mention. thompson

meatcleaver -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:19:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phantm173 Most historians, especially most military historians, would disagree with you on that. John Keegan, the great British military historian, has repeatedly noted that the Battle of Atlantic started turning towards the allies in March 1943 due in part to an increase in U-Boat sinkings, but mainly because American industrial might made it possible to produce transport ships faster than the U-Boats could sink them. Thus, the necessary material (and troops) could be sent to Europe. Similarly, in the Pacific, the U.S. was able to replace the capital ships it lost in the first year of the war (and in other major battles) whereas the Japanese were not able to do so. Thus, by the middle of the war, the Japanese simply did not have the carriers and planes to stand up to American fleets. Other examples: the U.S. had fleets of strategic bombers (B-17 and B-29) whereas the Germans and Japanese didn't. The U.S. was able to grind out large numbers of fighters that the Japanese and Germans couldn't match. In almost every land battle of Western Europe, the U.S. (and allied) troops had more artillery, more machine guns, and more ammunition than did the Germans -- and it made a difference. The same was true on the Eastern Front, where American supplies, combined with large numbers of Russian troops, made the difference. Perhaps the best example is the tank. The American Sherman tank was vastly inferior to the German tanks. BUT, the U.S. and British could field 10 or 11 tanks to each German tank, and the Shermans were able to simply smother the German tanks. The U-boat war was an abject failure for the Germans and very costly. One should read the German accounts and it will show that they conceded this during the war. A very good film based on life in U-boats is 'Das Boot' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot Although Winston Churchill, the United Kingdom's Prime Minister wrote "The only thing that really frightened me during the war was the U-Boat peril", evidence later accumulated showed that 98% of convoyed British ships in the first 28 months of the war crossed the Atlantic safely, and at no time was the U-boat force close to a successful blockade of the United Kingdom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boat

NorthernGent -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:24:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Out of interest, who are these socialists you mention? Hillary Clinton, Noam Chomsky, Al Franken, and to a lesser extent John Kerry and Ted Kennedy. I meant the foreign socialists you had in mind. While we're on, I'm no expert on the ins and outs of Hilary Clinton and John Kerry, but if they're socialists I'm a member of the former National Socialist Government of Germany.

thompsonx -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phantm173 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Mr.Lane: Your position that WWII was won largely because of U.S, industrial might is somewhat off the mark. The U.S, and its industrial might was really a minor player in WWII. As for the world being communist but for the U.S. seems more than a little farfetched. What I have noticed is that political systems do not export very well, be they of the left or the right or someplace in the middle. Thompson Most historians, especially most military historians, would disagree with you on that. The only one who would disagree are British and American with a nationalistic agenda. Real historians have a different opinion. John Keegan, the great British military historian, has repeatedly noted that the Battle of Atlantic started turning towards the allies in March 1943 due in part to an increase in U-Boat sinkings, but mainly because American industrial might made it possible to produce transport ships faster than the U-Boats could sink them. Thus, the necessary material (and troops) could be sent to Europe. The war in western Europe was a minor skirmish compared to the eastern front. The Germans never had more than 20 or 30 divisions in western Europe while they had over 300 divisions on the eastern front. Similarly, in the Pacific, the U.S. was able to replace the capital ships it lost in the first year of the war (and in other major battles) Of the 8 antique battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor only one stayed on the bottom 6 of the remaining 7 were tactical and on patrol in less than 6 months from their sinking. The magnatude of the pacific theater was miniscule in comparison to the confllict on the eastern front. All of the battles in the pacific were of division level and smaller. whereas the Japanese were not able to do so. Thus, by the middle of the war, the Japanese simply did not have the carriers and planes to stand up to American fleets. Other examples: the U.S. had fleets of strategic bombers (B-17 and B-29) whereas the Germans and Japanese didn't. The U.S. was able to grind out large numbers of fighters that the Japanese and Germans couldn't match. In almost every land battle of Western Europe, the U.S. (and allied) troops had more artillery, more machine guns, and more ammunition than did the Germans -- and it made a difference. The same was true on the Eastern Front, where American supplies, combined with large numbers of Russian troops, made the difference. American supplies constituted less than 10% of the total war material that the russians used in the conduct of the war. Perhaps the best example is the tank. The American Sherman tank was vastly inferior to the German tanks. BUT, the U.S. and British could field 10 or 11 tanks to each German tank, and the Shermans were able to simply smother the German tanks. The real reason the germans could not field enough tanks to fight the Shermans was because the russian T 34 destroyed the majority of german armor at Kursk. The total deaths of U.S, military on both theaters is about equal to what the germans lost in the battle for moscow. Which was about 20% of what they lost at the battle of Stalingrad. It is a difference of several orders of magnitude. thompson

NorthernGent -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 4:36:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 The United States is a nation of immigrants. So there is no definite culture. And the reason the US has grown so powerful so fast has a lot to do with the location. I would guess the British protestant work ethic and British entrepreneurial spirit has had some impact on the success of the United States. Now, this assumes that those running the show in the early days were of British descent and their way of doing things became the majority way - this could be a whole load of bollocks, but I'll put it up to be shot down, anyway.

Sinergy -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 5:00:57 PM)
We actually had the discussion about World War 2 on another thread. I do not dispute that the Germany's spine was broken by Hitler's idiocy in Russia. However, what was posted about the war in the Pacific is correct. The victor of a war is not really determined by number of people killed or number of troops on the ground. Japan could not sustain any sort of real military presence in the Pacific when they could not rebuild their navy fast enough to keep up with the United States sinking their ships. Sinergy

subrob1967 -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 5:21:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I meant the foreign socialists you had in mind. While we're on, I'm no expert on the ins and outs of Hilary Clinton and John Kerry, but if they're socialists I'm a member of the former National Socialist Government of Germany. They would be the ones who constantly criticize the U.S. for not having government controlled health care, the fact we don't rewrite the constitution to eliminate the second amendment, also the group who thinks the U.S. should allow the U.N. oversee our elections...etc. As for Kerry and Clinton, they're quite socialist as far as we're concerned, and the reason they appear centrist is to stay electable. John Kerry is a Europhile, and would love the U.S. to follow the EU model of government. & look at Hillary's health plan from 96, it's as socialist as it gets.

Sinergy -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 5:27:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 look at Hillary's health plan from 96, it's as socialist as it gets. I will agree that Hillary's health plan qualifies as socialist. It is requiring the Government to do something. What people who object to universal health care fail to understand is that we already have it in this country. I get injured. I have no insurance. I go to county. I have no money. County bills the government. The government pays. This is called Socialism. Why some of us want a socialist healthcare system is this would require healthcare providers to NEGOTIATE with the Federal Government for intelligent health care rates, as opposed to billing Uncle Sam $200 for a couple of tylenol and a band-aid. Not wanting to give the Federal Government the ability to negotiate as a player with big Medical and big Pharma is referred to as fiscal idiocy. I am always amazed at people who dont want universal health care fail to realize they are simply mindless yapping lap dog supporters of big Medical and big Pharma. Sinergy

NorthernGent -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 5:54:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I meant the foreign socialists you had in mind. While we're on, I'm no expert on the ins and outs of Hilary Clinton and John Kerry, but if they're socialists I'm a member of the former National Socialist Government of Germany. They would be the ones who constantly criticize the U.S. for not having government controlled health care, the fact we don't rewrite the constitution to eliminate the second amendment, also the group who thinks the U.S. should allow the U.N. oversee our elections...etc. As for Kerry and Clinton, they're quite socialist as far as we're concerned, and the reason they appear centrist is to stay electable. John Kerry is a Europhile, and would love the U.S. to follow the EU model of government. & look at Hillary's health plan from 96, it's as socialist as it gets. SubRob, this is exactly why I said your post "the socialists don't get us" is ironic. You clearly do not understand socialism if you think the EU model of government (whatever that is) is socialist. There is not a socialist country in the whole of Europe, with the possible exception of Belarus. You sort of tried to explain this by saying "they're socialists as far as we're concerned", but reinventing the definition of socialism to fit your case is the weakest trail of thought since Cardinal Wolsey got his cock out at Hampton court and pretended to be a door. Back to US culture, many of the values being stated here are actually Western culture and are not peculiar to the US. Diversity is an exception due to the sheer scale of the US. In terms of the "American dream", if this means social mobility and the ability to make the best of a bad start, then you're not unique in this respect. I come from a part of England with the highest rate of unemployment and social deprivation in the country - I've done quite well for myself and there are hundreds of thousands like me. It is the same in Western Europe - Germany, The Netherlands etc. Now, there's very little chance of me becoming the next King of England (I am still hopeful however and I'm sat waiting for the nod), but then what's the chances of you becoming the next President of the US? The majority of people across the Western world have no chance of attaining the top jobs, but have a good opportunity to make a good career for themselves. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept of the "American dream", but social mobility is a feature of the Western world.

popeye1250 -> RE: The American Culture (2/24/2007 6:05:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 The United States is a nation of immigrants. So there is no definite culture. And the reason the US has grown so powerful so fast has a lot to do with the location. I would guess the British protestant work ethic and British entrepreneurial spirit has had some impact on the success of the United States. Now, this assumes that those running the show in the early days were of British descent and their way of doing things became the majority way - this could be a whole load of bollocks, but I'll put it up to be shot down, anyway. The U.S. (was) a land of immigrants. I'm not an "immigrant." My parents were in this country legally and they and I were born in Boston, Mass. NG, I agree with you about the Protestant work ethic. And also about the Catholic and Jewish work ethic. People "made" things in this country. We still do but to a lesser extent with all this "globalism" crap going on. I hope the next President gets rid of all that stuff and these one-way "trade" deals.

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