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Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 3:32:40 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		In my mind living through life we must have integrity. We can all make a million and someone can take it from us. No matter how careful we are. Our health can be taken. Everything we are about today can be taken but our integrity.

So, why do so many of us throw it away? To me trust goes hand in hand within the scene. If I cannot trust my dom how can I be with him?
So, why are so many pathological liar's? Why do we respect these people? When they lie, they are only telling us we cannot respect them.
I read the board's and have for a long time. There are at least ten pathological liar's here. I'm not going to name, names. The same people that other's claim they respect.
How can you respect a liar? If you were in a scene with them and they beat you almost to death, are you going to come out of the hospital and say, well thats ok because I know you've lied to me so many times in the past so I expected you to lie to me again?

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?


Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 3:57:50 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?


Gloria,
Well, I try my best not to have them around me. When forced into a situation that can't be avoided I sure as hell don't let them bother me, especially in a social setting, which by definition is everything I do in the lifestyle. I actually find it amusing to catch them in their lie. The quickest way to sift out the phonies is to agree with them and challenge them to produce.

A few years back I only had integrity. Everything material that I possessed was lost. I agree with you that integrity is a valuable asset. With it, and hard work, you can recover from anything that presents itself in life. People throw it away, because they don't realize how important it is. It's comparable to trust. You only know how much you had when someone you love and/or respect says you've lost it. Then, too late, you learn that regardless of how much you have in material wealth or possessions, you can't trade it for that look of trust you used to receive when you had your integrity.

You're right in your assessment. Why let it bother you? "Ten pathological liar's here"? I think you are being conservative, but so what? Unless you are being forced to interact, why worry that they are around us? Remember Gloria, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 4:03:08 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?

I don't.

It takes a fair bit of time for someone to earn my trust before I allow them to get close to me. If one of those people violates that trust, they're gone. Kaput. Off the island. One strike and you're out. No second chances. It's that simple.

There's simply no room in my life for people like that.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 4:19:09 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

When they lie, they are only telling us we cannot respect them.


~~Hopes like hell no one see her in that light~~

When someone lies to me I feel like they are saying "Hey, I don't respect you enough to tell you the truth." or "I think you're to stupid to know I'm lying." Either way I take it as a personal attact on my integrity as well as my intelligence. I don't see it as "allowing them to be around us" as much as I see it as the same as walking through a forrest, somewhere along the line, no matter how careful you are, you're gonna pick up a blood-sucking, life-draining tic along the way.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 4:41:50 PM   
Harrison


Posts: 17
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

In my mind living through life we must have integrity. We can all make a million and someone can take it from us. No matter how careful we are. Our health can be taken. Everything we are about today can be taken but our integrity.


I sort of agree. The part I don't agree on is that "....living through life we MUST have integrity." I interact with many that don't seem to have any of that and they seem to be getting along just fine, without that integrity thing. I don't think we MUST have integrity....but, it would be nice.

This life is about choices.....and, living by a code of integrity is one of those choices.

I choose to live my life and be guided by a voice inside me. Not the "son of sam" kind of voice, it's a little, quiet voice I hear when all else is silent. It doesn't tell me what I want to hear....it tells me the plain, honest truth. Staying true to that little voice is part of, what I'd like to believe, my integrity.

quote:

So, why do so many of us throw it away? To me trust goes hand in hand within the scene. If I cannot trust my dom how can I be with him?


I agree, there must be trust, in all forms of this life including sceneing. Liars trash that trust. Remember the narcs of the 70s? They trashed a lot of trust between people.

Without trust, I wouldn't keep a sub around for a second and, there is very little opportunity for a second chance. When my trust is broken, there is no "do over." I suspect psycologists would tell us there are those that feel a need to stay with a liar, even when the trust is gone. Why? They can explain it....it's too deep for me.

quote:


So, why are so many pathological liar's? Why do we respect these people? When they lie, they are only telling us we cannot respect them.


Good question. Maybe the reason BDSM has its share of liars is that this life is fertile ground for them to prey on the new. This is a place of a sort of fantasy.....and, people often surrender all to someone else on rather short notice. It makes it easy for liars to find new victims. Online, it seems to be even worse. Places like this (and don't get me wrong, I like this place) seem to have more than its share of liars, probably because it is easy here to be anything you want. No one knows me....I could be a psycho, too. (I'm not....but, hey, you don't know...)

With over 1800 posts, you have a lot of time here and probably have much better bullshit radar that I. But, here on line, please do not confuse respect for a person with agreeing with what they said. When I show someone respect on these boards, I am only agreeing with what they wrote.....not with their ways. I have read writings that I agreed with...only to begin to feel that the person who wrote it was.....well, pretty far out in left field.

I agree with much of your writings, too....but, I can not judge your life or sincerity or anything like that. I show you respect.....but, I
can't respect you until I know you and just reading your words doesn't go that far.

quote:

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?


I've wondered that too. In person, I don't play with or around someone I know to be a liar or someone who has abused my trust and I don't allow them to be around me. They get no respect from me. So, it's a mute point. Online, it's different. I wish there was a way to cleanse this place of the pretenders and the predators. I meet them on the sub side just like you apparently see the doms that are. I don't know how we could do that so I choose to ignore them. I don't allow them to rent space in my head....

Like I said, I hear ya....and, I agree with you. I sincerely wish we could create a place that was safer.....especially on the new ones. They get the worst of it and need our help the most.

Harrison

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 4:44:11 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
In my mind living through life we must have integrity. Everything we are about today can be taken but our integrity.

I agree Gloria... I grew up with the idea that integrity is what would always elevate a person to his higher level, so it should never be traded for anything else, because no matter what else one had, if he didn't have integrity than he pretty much was as contemptible as the lying/drugged out scoundrel down the street.

quote:

So, why do so many of us throw it away? To me trust goes hand in hand within the scene. If I cannot trust my dom how can I be with him?

My guess is a lot of people come into this lifestyle with all the terrible insecurities that makes us jealous of each other, and compete for a desired' one's attention. There's a great need to be accepted no matter what the cost to our emotions/integrity. We fall in love with an idea, than no matter how much the object of our desire lives to disprove that idea, we've already got the love scenario in our minds, and cannot let go of it, because it feels like the end of what makes us feel alive... Am I on a tangent/?? ok, leave that idea for now...

quote:

So, why are so many pathological liar's? Why do we respect these people? When they lie, they are only telling us we cannot respect them.
I read the board's and have for a long time. There are at least ten pathological liar's here. The same people that other's claim they respect.

I'll be the first to admit that I cannot always pick out a liar though Lord knows I've been exposed to enough of them; but if I discover that someone is in fact a liar, or so insane they are unable to distinguish fact from fiction, than I will leave them alone immediately. What irritates me more than anything is when people rationalize inconsistencies with words rather than say "I believed this to be the truth, or I felt this way when I made that statement."
I will say I've been guilty of forgiving an occasional inconsistency (if I consider it not very serious), because it seems sometimes EVERYONE is trying to hide something for whatever reason.

quote:

How can you respect a liar?

I can't and I don't... For this reason the folks short on integrity have been known to call me a Byotch (when we're dealing directly, and I catch a lie, call them liars), so I had to get comfortable with that Idea, lol...
It actually bothers me every time I meet someone online or real life that is dishonest, because I always tell people I would respect and prefer the truth always over a lie, but still that doesn't ease many into enough of a comfort zone to be honest.

quote:

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?

I try to stay away from people who are Extremely different from me morally and phillosophically.
..but I guess because if we didn't allow them around us in the virtual realm, the boards would only have maybe 100 people emailing to one another and posting? M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 5:00:06 PM   
cynthiamarie


Posts: 205
Joined: 3/11/2005
From: Bluefield, WV, USA
Status: offline 		The more this sub reads the more scared this sub gets...and thinks that nobody can really protect themselves from soul rapes like that.

Trusting someone completely is one of the hardest, most dangerous, scary things this sub is doing. lol, feel free to ignore this sub...her PTSD is showing again...but this subject really hits this girl where she lives.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 5:11:58 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Trusting someone completely is one of the hardest, most dangerous, scary things this sub is doing.


cynthia,
Whether they admit it to themselves or not, it's the "hardest, most dangerous, scary thing" that any Dom/me does too!

(in reply to cynthiamarie)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 5:17:12 PM   
Guest
quote:

Whether they admit it to themselves or not, it's the "hardest, most dangerous, scary thing" that any Dom/me does too!


Amen.

Mod5

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
  Post #: 9
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 6:02:37 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?


Gloria,
I have to admit that this online interaction medium is one that is still fairly new to me. Recently it has caused me a bit of confusion. I could not figure out why it was that it seemed that I could not accurately convey my thoughts here or why it seemed that my words and intentions were so often misread or misunderstood. I never seem to have these type of issues in face to face interactions with people, so why here?

I have given the whole thing alot of thought and I have had a few realizations that for some reason have eluded me to this point regarding online interaction. In real life face to face interactions, there is a process that we go through to see exactly what category we want to put those new people we meet. Some of them will go on to become great friends because their integrity levels closely match that of our own. Some will remain in the acquaintance category because although they may be nice, entertaining or even informative, they for one reason or another are not close enough to our belief system to become a close part of our inner circle. Then there are those that we meet that we decide are so far from anything we hold dear, that we make a concious decision not to have ongoing interaction with that person other than merely being courteous to them in passing.

The part that was eluding me is that for some reason I never considered that I could also make those kind of concious decisions in regards to people posting on these forums. I thought myself impolite if I did not respond or clarify myself to them in a meaningful way. Suddenly it dawned on me that I was bending over backwards attempting to be polite to people who, if we were in face to face interaction, would have certainly been in the category of people who I would not choose to have ongoing interactions with.

I agree with your sentiments completely. There is more than a fair share of people on these boards who are not only pathologic liars, lacking in integrity but there are even some here who are just plain morally bankrupt. None of these are characteristics of those I would choose to call my friends. We don't have to allow them around us. We can make concious choices as to who is worthy of our time and energy here...just as we do in face to face.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 6:09:41 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Good question. Maybe the reason BDSM has its share of liars is that this life is fertile ground for them to prey on the new. This is a place of a sort of fantasy.....and, people often surrender all to someone else on rather short notice. It makes it easy for liars to find new victims. Online, it seems to be even worse. Places like this (and don't get me wrong, I like this place) seem to have more than its share of liars, probably because it is easy here to be anything you want. No one knows me....I could be a psycho, too. (I'm not....but, hey, you don't know...)




With over 1800 posts, you have a lot of time here and probably have much better bullshit radar that I. But, here on line, please do not confuse respect for a person with agreeing with what they said. When I show someone respect on these boards, I am only agreeing with what they wrote.....not with their ways. I have read writings that I agreed with...only to begin to feel that the person who wrote it was.....well, pretty far out in left field.

I agree with much of your writings, too....but, I can not judge your life or sincerity or anything like that. I show you respect.....but, I
can't respect you until I know you and just reading your words doesn't go that far.

quote:

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?


I've wondered that too. In person, I don't play with or around someone I know to be a liar or someone who has abused my trust and I don't allow them to be around me. They get no respect from me. So, it's a mute point. Online, it's different. I wish there was a way to cleanse this place of the pretenders and the predators. I meet them on the sub side just like you apparently see the doms that are. I don't know how we could do that so I choose to ignore them. I don't allow them to rent space in my head....

Like I said, I hear ya....and, I agree with you. I sincerely wish we could create a place that was safer.....especially on the new ones. They get the worst of it and need our help the most.

Harrison

Correct, what do you think the women slavemaster killed would say now if they had to do it all over? Travel cross country to meet the man they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with or open their eyes. Nobody could convince me the warning signs were'nt going off all over, yet none of them cared to see them or listen to them.
So they took the trip to their demise.
I don't expect anyone here on these boards to even agree with me. Let alone respect me. I'm not an ignorant person. One cannot have respect for another online. Sure, you can become infatuated and the like. However respect just cannot be earned here.
Yet, I am not one of those who as I said, expect to be agree'd with. However at the same time I don't expect for other's to be such children that they seem to think their way is the one true way. From what I know of people here on the board's I have more lifestyle background than any of them do. To my knowledge anyway. Yet I am continually learning. If I weren't I would not be here trying to learn more about people and the differences we all share.

cynthiamarie,
Then it was a good post. If it made you think. If it is the first one that made you think since you've been here then it was the best post yet. That is the reason why we are all here on the board's is to learn and communicate. If not why else? For prey? I can't think of any other reason.

There is a sure fire way to protect yourself too. Just listen to people. Read what they have to say. When they contradict themselves over and over. They are lying, plain and simple. Many have done that here over and over. A liar cannot keep their lies straight.
You can protect yourself if you learn how. Being a single sub protecting yourself is a must if you want to stay safe.

I've just tired of those who e-mail me telling me they are lying on the board's to get their jollies out of the twits here. To me that is a predator. That is also someone here for all the wrong reasons.
It amazes me when these people more less say what they are doing in public as well, yet nobody ever reads the posts well enough. I guess nobody really cares to.
I sure know if I were seeking a significant other I'd be watching very close what other's are saying around me.


(in reply to Harrison)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 7:25:18 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I'm just trying to understand why we allow them around us?



Because it's a public forum and we peons don't have the ability to censor others based on our personal perceptions and opinions. Well, we do to a degree - there's that handy block feature that makes them disappear from your reality if you don't want them around.

Blacklisting is not cool around these parts (and not particularly cool in my personal reality either).

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 8:56:57 PM   
GreyStorm


Posts: 423
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Cheeseheadland
Status: offline 		ok ok, it's not really 14 inches, sheesh.



_____________________________

Ahhh temptation, I have named thee and thy name is woman.

(in reply to SherriA)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/24/2005 11:34:19 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

ok ok, it's not really 14 inches, sheesh.


Damn!!

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to GreyStorm)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/25/2005 9:47:46 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ok ok, it's not really 14 inches, sheesh.


I know many females who think the larger the foot the larger some appendages are. Too bad it is a shame.

(in reply to GreyStorm)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/25/2005 10:21:51 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyStorm
ok ok, it's not really 14 inches, sheesh.

So how many inches is it? As long as we're on the integrity and honesty thing, and you brought it up (assisted or not by SherriA)? M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to GreyStorm)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/25/2005 1:01:33 PM   
ARoseAndAnEye


Posts: 67
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline 		... not to change the subject or anything, but...

i used to think of myself as a "wannabe". not because i was lying to myself, but because i felt i just didn't possess enough Knowledge of BDSM to call myself REAL (what does THAT mean????). i look at pictures of myself that Master has taken during sessions, and think WOW... that's ME!!!!! i guess i DO know something!! (or at least i've most certainly experienced a few things along the way) but aside from my most intimate relationships with my Master and Mistress, and a few play partners along the way, i have only my self image as a submissive to draw on.

i have an unsatiable thirst to learn all that i can about BDSM -- the knowledge and skills i possess in submission are private and miniscule in the proverbial BIG PICTURE. Everybody's experiences are different from mine, and i am thrilled to death everytime i try something new. There is absolutely no shame in not knowing how or what or where or why.

It is sad that there are those out there who lie when its sooooo unnecessary. i look to those with more skill & knowledge with respect and awe. i look to those with less skill & knowledge with hope that they find what they're looking for. In real life, its pretty easy to figure out who the knowers are and who the learners are.

i'll always be a learner. to some degree aren't we all?

~anna

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/25/2005 2:14:15 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

i used to think of myself as a "wannabe". not because i was lying to myself, but because i felt i just didn't possess enough Knowledge of BDSM to call myself REAL (what does THAT mean????). i look at pictures of myself that Master has taken during sessions, and think WOW... that's ME!!!!! i guess i DO know something!! (or at least i've most certainly experienced a few things along the way)

It is sad that there are those out there who lie when its sooooo unnecessary. i look to those with more skill & knowledge with respect and awe. i look to those with less skill & knowledge with hope that they find what they're looking for. In real life, its pretty easy to figure out who the knowers are and who the learners are.

i'll always be a learner. to some degree aren't we all?


To me everyone has self worth. Even if they do not think they do at the time. Everyone is real because life is real. Knowledge doesn't make you any less of a person. All it mean's is you have not ignighted your passions yet. Many go through the same phase you are.
You're just new in experiencing this new life you've thrust yourself into.
Nothing wrong with that.
For me it is actually easier telling the liar's here. I mean I have all of their post's to go back and refer to when they something that contradicted themselves earlier on. The only way for them to solve that is to also go back through their own posts and edit them all.
I think that is too much work for most liar's.
In real life we don't have a script we can read for inconsistancies. We do however have face to face interaction. However, take Scott Peterson's face when he is saying he is not guilty. Believable or not? Sociopaths can tell a lie and believe it themselves.
I gues the problem I was having is, some of these liar's e-mail you and gloat about getting one over on the people on the board's. Almost as if they are not worth talking to on an honest level.
We all like some people here and we all dislike some. That is human nature. However, for someone to gloat. Why are they here in the first place if it is so miserable for them?
Or if people don't come around to their thinking so they are considered worthless?

It doesn't quite make sense to me still. I am happy to see some have integrity like mine. I am also still learning. My process won't be over until the day I die, somehow I think it won't be over quite then either.

(in reply to ARoseAndAnEye)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/25/2005 2:16:38 PM   
CitizenCane


Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I don't see honesty as a lifestyle issue. It's a life issue. You find dishonesty everywhere, and a lack of integrity is no less important in vanilla life than in BDSM. I think that people lie, both to themselves and to others, for the same basic reasons in and out of BDSM- greed and fear. Each of these have many variations, and the variations have many combinations, but people lie because they are afraid of others or seek to gain something that they don't feel they are honestly entitled to. It's no different in the lifestyle than out.



_____________________________

Citizen Cane

If silence is golden, why is duct tape silver?

(in reply to ARoseAndAnEye)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Lies, Distrust and Integrity - 3/25/2005 2:24:10 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I don't see honesty as a lifestyle issue. It's a life issue. You find dishonesty everywhere, and a lack of integrity is no less important in vanilla life than in BDSM. I think that people lie, both to themselves and to others, for the same basic reasons in and out of BDSM- greed and fear. Each of these have many variations, and the variations have many combinations, but people lie because they are afraid of others or seek to gain something that they don't feel they are honestly entitled to. It's no different in the lifestyle than out.


The reason I see it as being more important within the lifestyle is because I put my life literally in my doms hands. If he lies about small things, how do I know he isn't lying about larger things?
In day to day life I don't put my life in my co-workers hands for them to do with what they please.

That is the difference I see.

I do however at the same time agree that integrity and honesty should be followed in all walks of life. I have discarded a number of people over the year's from my circle of friends because of lies.
For instance a dom I know whom I haven't heard from in about a year and a half called me today. His first words were, "it is so great to hear your voice, I've been in prison for the last year."
Insider trading, yet still a felony and he knew I would'nt judge him because of it at all. He is still my friend.

(in reply to CitizenCane)
Profile   Post #: 20
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