RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Heathen/pagan roll call


Pagan/heathen D
  35% (21)
Pagan/heathen s
  33% (20)
Meek Popsicle
  8% (5)
Pagan/heathen switch
  22% (13)


Total Votes : 59
(last vote on : 9/21/2008 4:47:30 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


SleepyBeast -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:38:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Brilliant first post.

I always find it funny when white people call themselves Aryan.

quote:

Aryan is an English language word derived from the Sanskrit and Iranian terms ārya-, the extended form aryāna-, ari- and/or arya- (Sanskrit: आर्य, Persian: آریا). Beyond its use as the ethnic self-designation of the Proto-Indo-Iranians, the meaning "noble/spiritual one" has been attached to it in Sanskrit and Persian. In linguistics, it is sometimes still used in reference to the Indo-Iranian language family, but it is primarily restricted to the compound Indo-Aryan, the Indic subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch.




FukinTroll -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:46:55 PM)

Sleepy, your going to keep fuk'n around with posts like that and end up on the "thought highly of list."




SleepyBeast -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:50:10 PM)

Maybe I can hide from the quality post police.




LeatherWolffe -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:50:30 PM)

witch trials branched from the inquisition. And much was started by a boy-prince who helped have his cousin and rightful heir beheaded so he could take over, before starting a campaign of murder against his own people for religious intolerance.

Friday the 13th has many correalations to different reasons why it's "unlucky", ranging from the Templars to the Moon to Judas Iscariot.

Modern Crusades- who would rule the Holy Land? If he has his wasy- Dubya! :-P

Pagans are just getting organized after centuries of hiding- give them time! And the Christians didn't conquer them originally- it was the Romans. The Christians just spent the next 1000 years trying to cover as much territory is all.

and Fergus? Swords, Assault Rifles, whatever'll do they trick! It wasn't by violence they conquered the first time- that was for enforcement. Fear, Blasphemy and absorbing others into themselves is how they spread the first time, so I don't think it'll work these days. :-)  But don't take my word for it, read a bible- any of the 100's of versions now in print- and it's all there....

Proud to be a Pagan!!




FukinTroll -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:51:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SleepyBeast

Maybe I can hide from the quality post police.


Good plan. You may have to make a whole other profile for the good stuff.




SleepyBeast -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:54:19 PM)

Now that might work, maybe with the name WideAwakeBeast.





fergus -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:55:55 PM)

Man, I HOPE the pagans don't become organized ;)  would hate to see happen to us what has happened to the other world religions.  Anyway, from my 20 in the community, there is little fear ofthis actually happening ;)

fergus




FukinTroll -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 5:58:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SleepyBeast

Now that might work, maybe with the name WideAwakeBeast.




Too over the top man. No one would ever make the conection.




SleepyBeast -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 6:00:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

quote:

ORIGINAL: SleepyBeast

Now that might work, maybe with the name WideAwakeBeast.




Too over the top man. No one would ever make the conection.


Then what about the name SleepyBeastAlterEgo




Vendaval -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 6:02:50 PM)

"Greek archaeologists find Hera statue"
By COSTAS KANTOURIS, Associated Press Writer

THESSALONIKI, Greece -
"A 2,200-year-old statue of the goddess Hera has been found built into the walls of a city under Mount Olympus, home of Greece's ancient gods, archaeologists said on Thursday. The headless marble statue was discovered last year during excavations in the ruins of ancient Dion, some 53 miles southwest of Thessaloniki."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070301/ap_on_sc/greece_statue




FukinTroll -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 6:03:11 PM)

Hell man that is even worse!!! But... if you really wanted to hide the connection... I would use that one.




Vendaval -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 6:09:24 PM)

That is right, I forgot about that one.  See what too much homework
and not enough sleep does for ya?  sheesh...
 
There is a whole series about the Knights Templar in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Knights_Templar
 
 
 
"On Friday, October 13, 1307, 69 Knights Templar in France were simultaneously arrested by agents of King Philip, later to be tortured into admitting heresy in the Order. Over 100 charges were issued against them, the majority of them identical charges to what had been earlier issued against the inconvenient Pope Boniface VIII. The dominant view is that Philip, who seized the treasury and broke up the monastic banking system, was jealous of the Templars' wealth and power, frustrated by his debt to them, and sought to control their financial resources for himself, by bringing blatantly false information against them at the Tours assembly in 1308; it is also likely that, under the influence of his advisors, he actually believed many of the false charges to be true."

quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus
and the templars being rounded up for trial and execution on Friday the 13th I THINk the year was 1311, but someone will correct me :)
fergus




SleepyBeast -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 6:11:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Hell man that is even worse!!! But... if you really wanted to hide the connection... I would use that one.



I know now, I could use the name SomeoneElse




FukinTroll -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 6:14:09 PM)

Oohhh!!! I like that one!!!!




fergus -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/1/2007 6:43:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

That is right, I forgot about that one.  See what too much homework
and not enough sleep does for ya?  sheesh...
 
There is a whole series about the Knights Templar in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Knights_Templar
 
 
 
"On Friday, October 13, 1307, 69 Knights Templar in France were simultaneously arrested by agents of King Philip, later to be tortured into admitting heresy in the Order. Over 100 charges were issued against them, the majority of them identical charges to what had been earlier issued against the inconvenient Pope Boniface VIII. The dominant view is that Philip, who seized the treasury and broke up the monastic banking system, was jealous of the Templars' wealth and power, frustrated by his debt to them, and sought to control their financial resources for himself, by bringing blatantly false information against them at the Tours assembly in 1308; it is also likely that, under the influence of his advisors, he actually believed many of the false charges to be true."

quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus
and the templars being rounded up for trial and execution on Friday the 13th I THINk the year was 1311, but someone will correct me :)
fergus



HOT DAMN THANKS!

I Knew the right info would come up :)  Thanks Vendaval!

fergus




MsStick -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/2/2007 3:40:48 AM)

Sword and Sermon?  Yawn...

Regardless of what the terms originally meant - What is referred to now as 'Pagan' or even 'Heathen', generally linked under the broader term 'earth based spirituality' has been around for a lot longer than many previously thought.  Christianity is but a blink of the eye compared to this...

http://www.yubanet.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/21/46605

But as Fergus and others have so correctly pointed out, Wicca is relatively new.  See Prof Hutton's 'Triumph of the Moon' for an essential history lesson, the perfect initial antidote to the McCoys and Ravenwolfs of the world  [:@]

Having worked with some of the Wiccan greats over the years, and gone through the system as far as I could go training under the best that I could find, I don't do that anymore.  But I respect it's relevance as a system, when given and taken seriously. 

Far from having had its day, earth based spirituality is the fastest growing form of spiritual preference in the world today, despite blatant lack of organisation and the disgraceful in-fighting of egotistical elders.  This makes perfect sense, as it is humanity's 'default' setting!




DisirUrdsFylgja -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/2/2007 5:18:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueEyedAryan

The day will come when Christians will once again rule with sermon and sword .


Excuse me folks out of rhymes for this one.
 
Aryan, huh? By that you mean you are a white supremacist or do you mean of Norse descent?
 
Either way you make it sound ugly.
 
Did you know Adolph Hitler was born and died a Catholic? As in worships Jesus Son of Nazareth as in a Jew?
 
If you wish to practice the faith of your forefathers why do you not worship the All Father?
 
Your day of sword and sermon will never come.
 
Jesus, the Jew, gave one final and all encompassing commandment “love one another”.
 
Where does that fit into your worldview?
 




LadyEllen -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/2/2007 7:30:20 AM)

It seems to me that it’s necessary to do something to belong to any religion. It is simply not the case, as we record on the census in the UK every few years, that 85% or so of the population are Christian; to be Christian, one has to do Christian, and with attendance at church in single figures percentage wise, clearly this is an identity of convenience for most, on the basis of “I’m nothing else, so I must be Church of England”, (which is a euphemism for no religion at all). Likewise with Pagan and/or Heathen – one is not Pagan or Heathen because one is not Christian; one is Pagan or Heathen because one does Pagan or Heathen.

But then, it also seems to me that aside from the over religious zealots, even those who are Christian doers, are deeply submerged in a Pagan/Heathen background culture. Ask a Christian if he has cast any spells lately and he will look at you with horror at such a suggestion – yet, when his children have a birthday, in comes a cake laden with candles which must be blown out and a wish made. Ask him if he worshipped any spirits lately and the same disgust will flash across his face – yet, did he not buy and decorate a tree over what he calls Christmas?

The same applies to we Pagans and Heathens of course – we too live subject to a culture which is informed by Christianity, and whatever we do has an effect upon us. Again, aside from those who take it too far, and give us the same sort of bad name that Christian zealots attract to themselves, we find ourselves humming overtly Christian Christmas carols, using references that have their origin in the Bible and playing along with the Middle Eastern idea of opposing dualities in the world that are right and wrong, good and evil.

Historians tell us that in the century or so after Christianity was variously adopted by or enforced on our ancient tribes, there was a period of dual faith, with Paganism/Heathenry living alongside Christianity. Historians then tend to suggest that as time went on, Christianity came to the fore. Whilst it is true that the Church adopted and altered Pagan/Heathen festivals to help to bring this about, it seems clear that by no means were the older traditions wiped out. Rather, they remained and were woven into Christian ways, with but a few being heavily suppressed – mainly those elements relating to the feminine. What the Church adopted survived but little altered, what the Church suppressed lived on in folk traditions and so called fairy tales.

The thing is then, that aside from the say 10% of the population who are Pagan/Heathen doers, and the say 10% who are Christian doers, there is a huge proportion of the population which is certainly not Christian, but which by way of the background cultural survivals of Pagan/Heathen ways, could be said to be less than neutral in this matter, but who would deny that they are Pagan/Heathen even though so much of what they do in terms of observations and so much of their life in terms of the culture they align with, is clearly of ancient origin.

Where Paganism/Heathenry has an advantage over Christianity is in the fact that whereas the latter is fossilized by way of scripture and becomes ever more irrelevant, the former is a living tradition, which evolves to meet the time, the people and their circumstances. At the same time though, Christianity has an advantage by way of a universally accepted creed, and recorded standards over which there can be little or no argument – which is the bane of any Pagan/Heathen organising principle, in that we can and so often do, argue over all sorts of points relating to historical authenticity versus modern practical application. Throw into such a mixture on our side, that almost everyone has a unique personal gnosis, and we see why we are unable to organise; no two people can agree on anything very much it would seem, so to get thousands to do so is impossible.

And yet, as with bdsm, there must be much which we who identify as Heathen/Pagan must hold in common. The challenge we have, as of right now, is to pin down these commonalities into a form which will stand the test of time. Were we able to accomplish this, to bring about a creed to which all can subscribe, without having to compromise on their particular tradition or their personal gnosis, then we would become a force with which to be reckoned in society. Not only that, but removed thereby from the common perception of us in the mainstream as weirdoes, and the mainstream coming to see that they more or less belong with us, we could restore the ancient ways to our countries and people. Not that Paganism/Heathenry is a proselytising tradition, for as we see above it does not need to be since it is in the hearts of the people and the culture, but that it is much better represented in terms of adherence than any other religion in our society, but lacks at the moment any way of being so in terms of how our society is organised. By unification, however loosely that unification is brought about, we will automatically gain precedence over Christianity in terms of our influence.

The model I see in the world for this, is the Hindu religion which has much in common with what we call Paganism/Heathenry and is related in many ways to our European traditions. There is a single religion called Hinduism to which all Hindus belong – yet within that religion there is a wide variation by way of geography, tribal affiliation, cults and practices; exactly as any unified Pagan/Heathen movement within Europe could and should be.

But, as others have mentioned in this thread already, we in the west have a problem peculiar to ourselves – that of the egos of those who put themselves forward as leaders to others within Heathenry/Paganism. This is a problem we cannot afford and should not tolerate, and in fact rather paradoxically is one I see as arising from the messianic model we have through Christianity, in that invariably I find, those who put themselves forward in this way, have a Jesus complex! Of course, someone out there will always find themselves looked up to by others, but to my mind it is essential that admiration of another should be based on a lack of such egotistical tendencies in that person, if we are to gain ground.

This though, then brings us into a conflict with Heathenry/Paganism – a conflict which is in gross error in my opinion. The outlook of many I meet seems to be that self-fulfilment is their guiding principle and what brought them to leave the self-negating ways of Christianity in the first place. To think in this way with Heathenry/Paganism is actually erroneous and a reaction against Christianity, rather than an affirmation for the ancient ways.

Taking the Norse tradition as example, for that is the one I am most familiar with, there is only one character in the Edda who adopts the self aggrandising behaviour so often exhibited by modern Pagan/Heathen leaders – Loki, who thereby brings disaster on himself and on the cosmos. Meanwhile, the Gods and Goddesses make repeated self sacrifice for the benefit of all, which not only maintains the cosmos but also ensures its survival of the disaster brought about by Loki’s actions – even Freyja, so often dismissed as the model of selfish womanhood by those unfamiliar with Her, does so. And the leader of the Gods and Goddesses is none other than Odin, who alike with many similar deities, died on a tree and was resurrected, to save the cosmos. How then pride and arrogance can be the order of the day for Heathen and Pagan leaders, quite escapes me, when the very ancient lore they claim to represent speaks against this. Of course, this is not to say that we Heathens/Pagans should adopt the often affected humility of the Christians, but rather that we should be able to recognise a leader from a charlatan, by the motivations and effects of his or her words and deeds.

Heathenry and Paganism have been with us since forever, and will be forever into the future. With Christianity dying out in much of the western world, there is a vacuum emerging, into which we rightly should resume our precedence. Not only that, but this vacuum is one of morality too, since in throwing off Christianity much of our society has thrown out the universal values which for a long time it maintained, and which have been discarded by association. Paganism/Heathenry is now required to fill that moral vacuum, before the forces of chaos take over completely. Our morality is slightly different of course, in that it generally lacks the misogyny and homophobia of Christianity, yet it bears useful comparison in the main. Morality cannot be enforced by government though, regardless of initiatives and in the UK the “respect agenda”, it is something which resides in the culture and we have a huge headstart in reinforming that culture, as a form of being and doing which is embedded in the people already.

But, we must get our house or houses in order.

E

MissT – the Goddess of shoes? Interestingly, there is a lot of old lore surrounding ladies’ shoes. The Goddess Frigga (Norse) had a “maid” who carried her shoes around. The Cinderella/Aschenputtel story also features the famous glass slipper incident – “fairy” stories by the way, are no such thing, they’re remnants of the pagan/heathen tradition that survived.




bludemonn -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/2/2007 7:36:43 AM)

fucking hell Lady E you are the thread stopper!! TTOOOOO MANNYYY WOORRDSS BRAIN HURTS!!!

anyways all you Pagans are just attention seekers just like bloody witches 'ooooh im a pagan you know' then came the friggin satanists cos its more taboo well screw you lot, you are all sheep baaaa baaaaa..err..baaaa! Beliefs are flawed in that you have to force yourself to believe whereas ideas are always truer. Screw the pagans and the bloody heathens (middle finger upwardsly pointing) im a Demon and i outrank the flipping LOT of you!  [sm=sodoff.gif]




LadyEllen -> RE: Heathen/pagan roll call (3/2/2007 7:48:39 AM)

Interestingly though Blu, you prove many of my points.

Demons are Christian inventions, arising from Middle Eastern dualistic ideas. That you bring them into the thread and then conjure some hierarchy between Heathens/Pagans and Satanists, demonstrates that all too many people in our culture associate Pagan/Heathen with anti-Christianity. I'm not anti-Christianity, not by a long way - as long as it keeps itself to itself and is done properly.

I'm Heathen, in that I subscribe to Asatru, albeit by way of a peculiar form perhaps to the minds of others within that tradition. To be Heathen, I dont do the opposite of Christianity. To do so would imply that Christianity has some overarching power over me that I am rebelling against. In fact, there are a lot of similarities between Asatru and Christianity and people often mistake me for a Christian because of what I say and do; but I'm acting from a different set of principles and background ideas.

Its no surprise though, because anyone who studies comparative religion for a while, soon sees that all valid religions have an idea at their root which they hold in common, and the variations between them are mainly socio-cultural tribal and geographical disinctions. As a Heathen, I find the socio-cultural tribal and geographical traditions of my ancestors to be more valuable to me, than those of the ancestors of a Middle Eastern tribe.

E




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