RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege?

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Real0ne -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 8:32:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sternhand4 Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? By right, I mean as a citizen, born or naturalized, are we entitled to a certain level of medical care. By privilege I mean, are you entitled to all the healthcare you can afford? i think you got your forms of government backwards. you already have the constitutional "right" to have health care if you so desire it as a sovereign in a sovereign state. Therefore you will pay for it. If you want the gov to grant you the privledge of someone else paying for it for you then you are asking for a socialist or communist form of healthcare. take a number and stand in line, if you die in the interim tough luck. great way to go!

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 8:33:20 PM)
Plenty of people who worked hard to get ahead and have college degrees now have low paying service jobs because their positions were either eliminated or went overseas. Lack of adequate healthcare often results in slow and painful death while death row inmates get a painless lethal injection. You call this fair?

popeye1250 -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 8:37:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Where will you draw the line, dbg. Why not go all-out Socialist / Communist, and give EVERYTHING away. Why isn't EVERYTHING a "right"? Why should I have to work for anything - why do only the people who work hard get to get ahead. They get the best jobs, the best insurance, you name it. It's terrible!!! quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl What about the people who work for everything and still can't afford health insurance? You seem to be forgetting that many US jobs are service jobs that pay next to nothing. Sanity, I don't think that "The Govt." should "provide" it I think the American People should provide it through our taxes and spending cuts in other areas. We need to get out of the "Foreign Aid" business for one thing! I've seen all kinds of estimates on how much we spend on foreign aid anywhere from $22B to $82B per year! When the govt. can't or won't tell us how much we're spending in foreign aid or any other program then it's time to end those programs. And, it should only be for U.S. Citizens, we shouldn't be paying for 20 million illegal aliens.

caitlyn -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 8:38:49 PM)
Looking at the system in the UK, and drawing the conclusion that the same system in the United States would have the same flaws, is quite a leap. Americans spend a fortune on healthcare, and get marginal service for it. Middle men make a fortune on our health. It's a national travesty, and needs reform.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 8:48:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Where will you draw the line, dbg. Why not go all-out Socialist / Communist, and give EVERYTHING away. Why isn't EVERYTHING a "right"? Why should I have to work for anything - why do only the people who work hard get to get ahead. They get the best jobs, the best insurance, you name it. It's terrible!!! quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl What about the people who work for everything and still can't afford health insurance? You seem to be forgetting that many US jobs are service jobs that pay next to nothing. Sanity, I don't think that "The Govt." should "provide" it I think the American People should provide it through our taxes and spending cuts in other areas. We need to get out of the "Foreign Aid" business for one thing! I've seen all kinds of estimates on how much we spend on foreign aid anywhere from $22B to $82B per year! When the govt. can't or won't tell us how much we're spending in foreign aid or any other program then it's time to end those programs. And, it should only be for U.S. Citizens, we shouldn't be paying for 20 million illegal aliens. My thoughts exactly. By the government paying for it, I meant through higher taxes for the wealthy. Maybe if these rich people who don't care about the rest of the America find out they will have to pay higher taxes for national healthcare, they will decide outsourcing isn't worth it and bring the good paying jobs with decent benefits back to the US. Then people will be able to afford their own healthcare.

Sanity -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 8:50:02 PM)
What are the chances we'd ever see spending cuts in other areas in exchange for more spending on expanding socialist programs in this one? I agree that healthcare needs certain reforms, but I'll never buy into the idea that government bureaucrats will ever run anything even half way decently, and I shudder to think that in the future going to the doctor will be a lot more like going to the DMV than it is today. Socialism just doesn't work on a large scale like this, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. Sleazy keeps trying to warn us out of experience, and his warnings make perfect sense to me. When the government takes something over, they tend to ruin it. quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Sanity, I don't think that "The Govt." should "provide" it I think the American People should provide it through our taxes and spending cuts in other areas. We need to get out of the "Foreign Aid" business for one thing! I've seen all kinds of estimates on how much we spend on foreign aid anywhere from $22B to $82B per year! When the govt. can't or won't tell us how much we're spending in foreign aid or any other program then it's time to end those programs. And, it should only be for U.S. Citizens, we shouldn't be paying for 20 million illegal aliens.

Sanity -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 8:56:34 PM)
And what are you going to do when you've taxed those evil rich people to the point that there are no more of them left. Who will you come for next to pay for all your government freebies and givaways? quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl My thoughts exactly. By the government paying for it, I meant through higher taxes for the wealthy. Maybe if these rich people who don't care about the rest of the America find out they will have to pay higher taxes for national healthcare, they will decide outsourcing isn't worth it and bring the good paying jobs with decent benefits back to the US. Then people will be able to afford their own healthcare.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:00:11 PM)
Well someone needs to run it and I think the wealthy corporations that eliminated decent paying jobs in the US and sent them overseas should have to pay for it. The more outsourcing and off-shoring there is, the more people there are that can't afford healthcare. I say tax the ones responsible.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:00:57 PM)
I'm sorry, defiantbadgirl, but what you are posting simply goes against every grain in my body. Yes, it is true that many people went to college and now they are in low paying service jobs. This could be due to various reasons, such as them choosing a non-marketable skill/degree, not adequately applying themselves, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to do with jobs going overseas. Many of which are service jobs such as call centers and such. No one has a right to a job. No one has a right to free health care. Why? Because these rights would then step on the rights of other people. If a person can't pay for their own health care, then you have a few options: either force the hospital or doctor to provide the services free of charge at a loss to them, or force other people, aka the US taxpayers, to pay for it. Notice how in both of those situations it requires forcing someone to give up something? And, please please PLEASE stop saying tax those 'evil' rich. The evil rich are already taxed to a much higher proportion than any other class, and as benji said earlier, provide more back into the system whereas folks in lower classes take more out. It may be easy to hate the rich guy who buys the big ol yacht, but I can guarantee you the salesman who sold the yacht, the insurer who provides coverage, the mechanic who fixes it, the company who built it, the builders who worked hard making it, the companies who supplied the raw materials to build it - get the picture? I bet they are dang glad he bought that yacht. As far as I can remember, America was founded on three basic rights - Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. With these rights come responsibilities. This includes the responsibility to take care of your own damn self rather than depending on everybody else to do it for you. And yes, maybe it is unfair that death row inmates are killed painlessly while others die in pain. But someone please, please tell me where it is written that life is fair? I feel it is 'unfair' that the government spends countless dollars on frivolous crap like the National Endowment for the Arts. How fair is it that your poor people are suffering but some artist is given thousands of dollars for a crappy sculpture because no one in the private community would buy it? How about this - get government completely out of our lives for almost everything. Give back all the money they take from us every year in taxes. Allow the incredibly generous American people to then utilize this extra money in philanthropical pursuits to help the truly needy. Government is never, ever, the answer. Only a last resort. Sorry, end of rant. This post just got my libertarian streak going.

caitlyn -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:01:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity but I'll never buy into the idea that government bureaucrats will ever run anything even half way decently, and I shudder to think that in the future going to the doctor will be a lot more like going to the DMV than it is today. Properly funded government programs seem to work well ... for instance the FDA, the Armed Forces and Social Security (which for all the alarmist talk, but has never missed a payment). Using the DMV as an example of what a large government program might look, is a poor example.

sleazy -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:02:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Looking at the system in the UK, and drawing the conclusion that the same system in the United States would have the same flaws, is quite a leap. Americans spend a fortune on healthcare, and get marginal service for it. Middle men make a fortune on our health. It's a national travesty, and needs reform. So agencies run by the US government are effective and cost efficient? They dont have legions of bearaucrats and empire builders that dig into large scale government programs? Here in the UK we spend a fortune on healthcare and rather than getting a marginal service, get a piss poor one. As with any other government project costs over-run, schedules slip and the penpushers dig in and hire more penpushers to protect themselves. Unless the US has the worlds first government free of unecessary adminstrative staff I suspect exactly the same will happen. Take medicare/medicaid and similar federal schemes, do they work well for all, or are they a quagmire of red tape, paper shufflers and pen pushers? Now expand that scheme to cover every man woman and child in the nation and convince yourself it would be more efficient, cheaper per user and have no negative impact on patient care. I think to fair to say that any business that was run as if a government would run it would soon fail due to mismanagement, cash flow problems and lack of customer & investor confidence, why should healthcare be any different?

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:05:28 PM)
That would never happen. There are plenty of rich corporations to foot the bill. It's because of people who think like you that honorable citizens are suffering more painful deaths than condemned criminals just because they can't afford healthcare......better to let innocent people die than to offer "freebies"

Sanity -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:08:30 PM)
You haven't spent a day in the Military, I can tell. And so far as the Social Security Administration goes, as well as the FDA, etc., I am NOT impressd - I'm sorry. I usually agree with you, but sometimes I don't, and this area is one. quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Properly funded government programs seem to work well ... for instance the FDA, the Armed Forces and Social Security (which for all the alarmist talk, but has never missed a payment). Using the DMV as an example of what a large government program might look, is a poor example.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:09:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Looking at the system in the UK, and drawing the conclusion that the same system in the United States would have the same flaws, is quite a leap. Americans spend a fortune on healthcare, and get marginal service for it. Middle men make a fortune on our health. It's a national travesty, and needs reform. So agencies run by the US government are effective and cost efficient? They dont have legions of bearaucrats and empire builders that dig into large scale government programs? Here in the UK we spend a fortune on healthcare and rather than getting a marginal service, get a piss poor one. As with any other government project costs over-run, schedules slip and the penpushers dig in and hire more penpushers to protect themselves. Unless the US has the worlds first government free of unecessary adminstrative staff I suspect exactly the same will happen. Take medicare/medicaid and similar federal schemes, do they work well for all, or are they a quagmire of red tape, paper shufflers and pen pushers? Now expand that scheme to cover every man woman and child in the nation and convince yourself it would be more efficient, cheaper per user and have no negative impact on patient care. I never had any difficulties with Medicaid when I was pregnant with my son.. The problem is, you have to be either pregnant or disabled to get it. Full time college students don't qualify. Nationwide healthcare would solve that problem. I think to fair to say that any business that was run as if a government would run it would soon fail due to mismanagement, cash flow problems and lack of customer & investor confidence, why should healthcare be any different?

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:11:01 PM)
Those examples you provided - FDA, Armed Forces, SS - not good examples. First, Social security. You realize that most of the amount of money you put into the system you will never, EVER get back. And if you die, all of that money YOU earned goes to others. Not your family. By investing the same amount of money in something like a 401K or even a crappy savings account the money would be yours, you could leave it to others, and you would actually get interest on the money. Social Security hasn't missed a payment because they take in far more than they actually pay out. And the day will come when they miss payments, trust me. Armed Forces - I was in the army. The sheer amount of waste in the armed forces is mind boggling. Again - the only reason they work well is because they throw an inordinate amount of cash at something that a private company would do better and cheaper. The FDA - nothing like killing innovation and progress with beauracracy while not doing such a good job either. Actually, the DMV is a much better example than the ones you stated. The DMV is a more localized entitity that everyone has to deal with. When was the last time you had to deal face to face with the pentagon or an FDA official? And if you have ever tried to deal with a mistake in Social Security checks like my grandmother did....

caitlyn -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:13:59 PM)
Impressed or not, the Social Security Administration has never missed a payment. That is sort of the bottom line, isn't it? You are right, I haven't been in the military, but know a lot of people that are, and the results seem reasonably obvious. Have you interacted with the healthcare profession lately? They should just call it the healthcare, because there is not a fucking thing "professional" about it.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:14:09 PM)
Many service jobs don't have the 401K program and don't pay people enough to save any money. In fact, many employed people are homeless in the US because their service jobs don't even pay them enough to afford rent, utilities, and food.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:14:27 PM)
"There are plenty of rich corporations to foot the bill." That right there shows you do not understand basic economics. There is no such thing as 'rich corporations'. A corporation holds no money. That money belongs to shareholders, employees, the PEOPLE that make up the company. When you tax the rich corporations, you raise the price for everyone because the cost of the tax is then built into the COST of what they are selling.

ArgoGeorgia -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:16:36 PM)
"Impressed or not, the Social Security Administration has never missed a payment. That is sort of the bottom line, isn't it?" Hell, you pay me $100 every month and I can guarantee you get your $1 check every month. Yeah, no problem there, huh?

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/1/2007 9:21:54 PM)
And how much do you think these big corporations pay their service work employees? The way the economy is headed, pretty soon nobody will be able to afford being a shareholder. The trickle down theory might have worked at one time, but now it's a joke. Too many jobs are being eliminated by these rich corporations while the "new jobs" the trickle down theory promises are being created overseas. I understand basic economics just fine.

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