quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

http://www.stanford.edu/~wfsharpe/art/fer/fer97.htm
 
"Unlike private pension plans, Social Security is not funded; it is a pay-as-you-go system. The payroll taxes paid by each generation of workers are not invested to cover that generation’s retirement. Instead the taxes are used to pay benefits to workers who have already retired. The young pay the old, and when the young become old, they in turn are paid by the next generation.
Payroll taxes will exceed benefit payments for the next few years. These surpluses will flow to the OASDI (Old Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance) Trust Fund. The Trust Fund is not intended to fund future Social Security liabilities. At its projected peak in about 2020, the Trust Fund will cover less than three years of benefit payments.
The Social Security system faces two serious problems. First, pay-as-you-go will not work in the long run at current tax rates and benefit levels. Projected annual benefits will exceed taxes before 2015, and the Trust Fund will be exhausted by about 2030. Projected annual and cumulative deficits become steadily worse through at least 2075. "

quote:

ORIGINAL: Inhibitor

Vote of general support for the various arguments of sleazy, benji, argo, et al.

I definitely do not think healthcare should be, or is, a "right." Granted, the opinion stems from how people define healthcare in general. Is everyone entitled to emergency treatment? How about anti-depression meds? Reiki? Expeller-pressed body thetan osmosis? Beyond that, I'm quite certain that there is no basic human right to spend pooled money on overpriced things, such as $40k LifeFlight helicopter rescues, etcetera.
Basically, where is the line drawn and who decides? 'Cause as long as people in powersuits sign off on who gets elective surgery gratis and who has to scrounge for change to buy birth meds (as determined by the indexed, numbered, and plastic collated Book of Rules), healthcare is neither a right nor a priviledge. It's the individual result of self-marketing. I don't want to see a completely socialist set-up in the US, but neither do I want to see people die over paperwork. I'll be satisfied when "healthcare" refers to actual healthcare, when the current strain of psychological hypochondria is given an appropriate bitch-slap, and when meds created from materials you could easily scrape off your bathtub and pour out of those bottles under the kitchen sink cost something akin to what they actually cost.

Oh and as an addendum, I'm naive, and I know it, and I like it like that. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
And why do you think that is? Nobody can put enough $ into social security because the jobs that pay enough to live on are dwindling every day, thanks to outsourcing and offshoring. Not to mention very few slave wage service jobs offer 401K.

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ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

The jobs that you keep speaking of were never meant to be lived on.  No one ever said that a minimum wage job was supposed to support a family of 4.  If the job doesn't support you, then do something.  THAT is what the freedom of America is about.  The ability to change your situation IF you take responsibility and make the change happen. 
And how is one supposed to make that happen when most of the decent paying jobs are being eliminated? Are you forgetting that many college educated professionals are now forced to work low paying service jobs? 

There have always been low paying jobs.  Throughout history, there has always been the fella who had to shovel shit.  So are you suggesting we raise the minimum wage to something more "livable"?  And what would that be exactly?  $10 an hour?  Why stop there?  How about $20? 
Of course there have always been low paying jobs. But there were also alot more decent paying jobs throughout history. My father works at a union oil refinery and he makes $27/hr. Now the company is bringing in outside contractors who employ immigrant workers instead of hiring new union workers. He's retiring early while he still has his pension because he's afraid his job will be eliminated. I'll never make $27/hr, even with a college degree. Make it happen? Maybe in my dreams.

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

The jobs that you keep speaking of were never meant to be lived on.  No one ever said that a minimum wage job was supposed to support a family of 4.  If the job doesn't support you, then do something.  THAT is what the freedom of America is about.  The ability to change your situation IF you take responsibility and make the change happen. 
And how is one supposed to make that happen when most of the decent paying jobs are being eliminated? Are you forgetting that many college educated professionals are now forced to work low paying service jobs? 

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There have always been low paying jobs.  Throughout history, there has always been the fella who had to shovel shit.  So are you suggesting we raise the minimum wage to something more "livable"?  And what would that be exactly?  $10 an hour?  Why stop there?  How about $20? 
Of course there have always been low paying jobs. But there were also alot more decent paying jobs throughout history. My father works at a union oil refinery and he makes $27/hr. Now the company is bringing in outside contractors who employ immigrant workers instead of hiring new union workers. He's retiring early while he still has his pension because he's afraid his job will be eliminated. I'll never make $27/hr, even with a college degree. Make it happen? Maybe in my dreams.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverWulf

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
And why do you think that is? Nobody can put enough $ into social security because the jobs that pay enough to live on are dwindling every day, thanks to outsourcing and offshoring. Not to mention very few slave wage service jobs offer 401K.

The myths of outsourcing:

Myth #1 America is losing jobs
Fact - More Americans are employed than ever before.
employed in service jobs that don't offer health insurance or pay enough for people to get their own-----I wonder how many of these employed people only have part-time jobs-----ooops, the statistics don't specify that

The household employment survey of Americans indicates that there are 1.9 million more Americans employed since the recession ended in November 2001. There are 138.3 million workers in the U.S. economy today—more than ever before.
employed and earning slave wages

Myth #2 The low unemployment rate excludes many discouraged workers.
Fact - Unemployment is dropping, despite a surging labor force.

Not only is the unemployment rate low in historical terms at 5.6 percent, but the workforce has been growing—there are now 2.03 million more people in the labor force than in late 2001. Without a higher rate of unemployment or a shrinking workforce, there is no evidence of growing discouragement.
the evidence of growing discouragement is in how much these jobs (or should I say jokes) pay

Myth #3 Outsourcing will cause a net loss of 3.3 million jobs.
Fact - Outsourcing actually has little impact and accounts for less than 1% of job turnover.
tell that to all the people with college degrees that have been forced to take low paying service jobs

Over the past decade, America has lost an average of 7.71 million jobs every quarter.  The most alarmist prediction of jobs lost to outsourcing, by Forrester Research, estimates that 3.3 million service jobs will be outsourced between 2000 and 2015—an average of 55,000 jobs outsourced per quarter, or only 0.71 percent of all jobs lost per quarter.

Myth #4 Free trade, free labor, and free capital harm the US economy.
Fact - Economic freedom is necessary for economic growth, new jobs, and higher living standards.

A study conducted for the 2004 Index of Economic Freedom confirms a strong, positive relationship between economic freedom and per capita GDP. Countries that adopt policies antithetical to economic freedom, including trying to protect jobs of a few from outsourcing, tend to retard economic growth, which leads to fewer jobs.

Myth #5 A job outsourced is a job lost.
Fact - Outsourcing means efficiency.
outsourcing means starving homeless families without health insurance.....efficiency for the greedy corporations that already make billions of dollars

Outsourcing is a means of getting more final output with lower cost inputs, which leads to lower prices for all U.S. firms and families. Lower prices lead directly to higher standards of living and more jobs in a growing economy.
no matter how inexpensive a product is, poverty stricken people won't be able to buy it

Myth #6 Outsourcing is a one way street.
Fact - Outsourcing works both ways.

The number of jobs coming from other countries to the U.S. (jobs “insourced”) is growing at a faster rate than jobs lost overseas. According to the Organization for International Investment, the numbers of manufacturing jobs insourced to the United States grew by 82 percent, while the number outsourced overseas grew by only 23 percent.  Moreover, these insourced jobs are often higher-paying than those outsourced.
and where are all these extremely high paying insourced jobs cause I sure haven't seen any

Myth #7 American manufacturing jobs are moving to poor countries, especially China.
Fact - Nations are losing manufacturing jobs worldwide, even China.

America is not alone in experiencing declines in manufacturing jobs. U.S. manufacturing employment declined 11 percent between 1995 and 2002, which is identical to the average world decline.  China has seen a sharper decline, losing 15 percent of its industrial jobs over the same period.
Myth #8 Only greedy corporations benefit from outsourcing.Fact -Everyone benefits from outsourcing.
Outsourcing is about efficiency. As costs decline, every consumer benefits, including those who lose their jobs to outsourcing. A 2003 study by Michael W. Klein, Scott Schuh, and Robert K. Triest, which includes dislocation costs in its calculations, shows the benefits of trade outweighing its costs by 100 percent.

Myth #9 The government can protect workers from outsourcing.
Fact - Protectionism is isolationsim and has a history of failure.

Proposals to punish businesses that outsource jobs, institute tariffs, or change tax rules will carry unintended consequences if enacted. Such measures would injure U.S. firms that export goods and services and erode U.S. competitiveness, often in unexpected ways. Recent steel tariffs, for example, cost jobs in dozens of industries while raising prices for consumers.
Why do we need to compete with other countries when we can make our own products in our own country?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

You keep saying that many college educated professional are now 'forced' to work low paying service jobs.  Can you please give me some statistics - any statistics - that support this?  That the reason these poor college educated professionals are out of work because their jobs were outsourced or eliminated?  And again - a college education does not guarantee you a good paying job.  What actual marketable skills does an undergraduate degree in "Psychology" or "Ancient Literature" or half of the degrees offered give you?  At the same time, I can pretty much guarantee you that a BS in biology, chemistry, etc will probably keep you from these low paying service jobs.  A college degree is crap if you don't have actual skills that are of actual benefit to someone who requires that service and is willing to pay you for it. 

By the way, please define a low paying service job.  How much are we talking about?
anywhere from minimum wage to $10/hr

Ah, unions.  Not even gonna open up that can of worms. 

And you don't think you'll ever earn $27 an hour with your college degree?  May I ask what you are studying?  And if you won't make that amount of money, maybe should switch over to something else?
$27/hr is a decent wage in Kansas (which is where I live). When I first started college, I was going to major in computer troubleshooting. I thought my 8 yrs of call center experience would get me in the door. Then I found out those jobs were being outsourced to India, so I switched to social work. I'd rather do that than be a nurse and risk getting stuck with an AIDS or Hepatitis C infected needle. 

Edited to add:  By the way - I graduated with a degree in Geography.  WTF?  I had NO skills whatsoever.  I had no idea what I would do.  So, I worked temp jobs for around $10 an hour (back in 96) while I re-evaluated.  Went to grad school for IT.  Survived through the dot com layoffs by keeping my marketable skills up to date, and now enjoy a good salary.  Is IT what I wanted to do with my life?  Hell no!  So now I do something that I enjoy less for more money.  It's a tradeoff. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverWulf

dbg - you keep referencing 'service jobs', 'slave labor', 'low pay', and a myriad of other ailments.  Sources please?

you say 'outsourcing means starving homeless families...'  your source?  Show Me some numbers, websites, statistics.

you say 'people with college degrees forced to take low paying service jobs...' as was asked previously, what degrees do these people have?  do they have any marketable skills? 

I don't have a college degree.  Don't need one.  I own My own business making way more than $27 an hour.  Special training, no... special skills, maybe a few... a drive to be self sufficient, you bet.  If I can do it, anyone can.  There is NO reason for anyone to live in poverty with the opportunities available in the various workforces.  Right here where I live are literally hundreds of unfilled jobs, all paying $25 an hour or more for unskilled labor, housing and transportation provided.

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ORIGINAL: ArgoGeorgia

Agreed, SilverWulf.  My brother is looking for apprentice plumbers - no experience necessary, learn as you go - and they can make up to $20 an hour during training, no skills, no degree!  After their apprenticeship, they can easily make well more than $27 an hour, without overtime or nightime/weekend rates (they'll rob ya blind for that).  And he is SCREAMING for more help. 

That is what America is about, man.  This is the land of opportunity, IF you go out and chase the opportunity.  Don't expect it to be handed to you on a silver plate with garnish.  And sorry, but a college degree does not qualify as chasing the opportunity.  It's a possible first step, but certainly not the only first step possible and definitely not the last step.