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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 5:46:41 AM

happypervert

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Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
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I don't see this as an either/or question in a relationship, but I do see having some fear as as being useful; I don't think love is necessary either, but respect is.

I do consider Machiavelli to be the #2 influence on my ideas about domination; #1 would be Cesar Millan from the show The Dog Whisperer. I prefer being a pack leader instead of being a ruler (or tyrant).

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Post #: 41

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:01:43 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So my question for dominant sorts is this, would you rather inspire fear or love in your submissive if you really can't have both?

This is a no-brainer. It is better to be loved (and trusted) than feared.

If people fear you, they do not trust you. If they do not trust you, how can you trust them? Where there is no trust, there is no relationship. What would be the point of having slaves then?

Peter

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 42

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:10:09 AM

lighthearted

Posts: 1165
Joined: 11/26/2006
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thank you for the thread, Julia. I find it very interesting.

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Post #: 43

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:16:26 AM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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I'd rather be loved than feared, though in real life, I tend to employ a little fear as well in my domination...
My first dominant instincts saying "I must be obeyed" wanted to answer that I'd prefer fear, but I am much more emotional than I am practical, so that a practical approach is not inspiring enough for me to do anything for longer than a few minutes/hours or weeks at best. M

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 44

RE: Machiavelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:35:59 AM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

I disagree that love and fear can hardly live together, however. I have seen such an amalgam before my eyes, and regularly do with any female who serves me for a long enough period of time. Fear and love working together toward obedience in the same soul is beautiful and attainable.

Very well said. Speaking from my own life I know that fear and love can function together in a balanced relationship. I regularly have fear struck in my heart and Daddy drinks it in, it is an intoxicating mix. For me there would be no other way or I would have tread all over him in the beginning.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 45

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:41:08 AM

marieToo

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Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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From the submissive side of the coin, I have found that love and fear are connected on a particular level; being in fear of someone isn't even possible unless there is some level of love, devotion or need. Otherwise what would there be to fear? We would just walk away rather than endure a consequence, etc..

When bound by something like love/need/desire, fear becomes a very powerful tool; fear of loss, fear of disappointment, fear of punishment, abandonment, whathaveyou...

I think as humans in general we are driven by fear all the time without being mindful of it. I think a smart D-type would harness this innate human characteristic and channel it very carefully in order to fine tune his/her instrument.

However, if fear is used to a very great extent I don't think it would work long term. I think it would eventually erode rather than strengthen--like taking something and putting too much weight on it until it cracks. It gets tiresome to always be in that state; shaking, fearful,nervous etc.

I think in small doses used wisely, a little bit of fear can go a long way while being nicely balanced with positive reinforcement-- ie "Im proud of you" and comments of that nature. I think it has to be a delicate balance. I don't envy the D types. Surely this stuff can't be easy.

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Post #: 46

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:43:58 AM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

Susan,

I can tell you that within some of our activites, they do inspire fear within my little one, but it is not fear of me. Some activites she has a fear reaction to. When I run the blade of the knife across her throat she knows I would never cut her on the neck but she will still shake and react as if I were going to slice her throat. She loves me dearly and knows I love her but the fear reaction is still heavily present.

That is different from me ruling over her by fear. She does not fear me but rather the event. I would rather she serve out of love and devotion than fear. There are things my little one gives me because she loves and is devoted to me but there are also things she fears that I extract from her. One of the reasons she is able to get past those fears is because of the love and trust we have with one another.

K

When i first read the OP, i thought it meant an actual fear of the person, as in you almost hate to see him come home because you are afraid of what he was going to do (almost like abusive). But i see others are not putting it in that context.

i agree with this. i never feared any of my former partners themselves but i sure hated the punishment spankings (perhaps i feared them?). In any event, it wasn't him that i feared.

When i lived home and missed curfew, i knew i would be grounded. i did all that i could to get home on time because i hated being grounded. i was not afraid of my father.....i loved him dearly....but if hate of the grounding can be called a fear of it, then that is what i experienced.

Now we all know kids who were abused and actually did live in fear of a parent....or a spouse who was abused and lived in fear of her partner....but that is not the type of fear i see in D/s. So i may not have realized the context it was used in when i first posted

DG

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 47

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:50:06 AM

StellaByStarlite

Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
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Hello. =)

Julia, that's a great question, and an example of why I come here in the first place.. to think about things I haven't before. =)

The Mister and I are extremely new at this, so it's safe to say we have a very vanilla core to us right now. We've been together as a vanilla married couple for 3 years, so it's very hard to imagine me fearing him, or him wanting my fear.

But you know, it's definitely something to bring up as a topic we can discuss together. I'll have to ask him when he comes home tonight and hopefully give you a more specific answer then this one. =)

Thank you so much for giving me food for thought!

Stella

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 48

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 6:53:19 AM

sublizzie

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Having read this thread with interest I'll say this. I am more deeply motivated through love and respect than fear. If all I do is fear, then I feel abused, not used. If I love, then I will submit more fully to demands and fear failure more intimately.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 49

RE: Machiavelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:07:54 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

What does Dominance of the bdsm type inspire then? "Merely" devotion? Love? All the time? Is it any different than a "vanilla" relationship? "Vanilla" relationships inspire devotion and love as well. Is it the "route to devotion" (or love) that is merely the different factor? Or is it the end-goal sometimes achieved via bdsm activity that is different and to be sought-after?

Susan,
Fear is easy. beth tells me all the time that I 'scare' people without trying; although she says she never has been afraid of me. When it comes to beth, my goal was/is to eliminate fear. Maybe there can be fear, nervousness, or apprehension about a certain type of play, place, or activity; but not me. I'm sure beth has experienced those emotions while serving me. she got through the experiences. I never put her in a situation where the fear exeeded her trust in me. Trust always exceeded the fear of the activity. In my opinion it defines "training". The submissive comes to trust that the dom and accomplishes things easily that she used to fear. Whether that is different than a "vanilla" relationship or not isn't important.

You can train through the use of intimidation and power. If you goal is to see a flinch every time you raise your hand its easy, and requires less time. Reaction to fear isn't the opposite of reacting out of devotion. Unless you believe that reacting to hate is the opposite to reacting to love. But wouldn't one be aversion, while the other devotion; regardless of the fear of the particular activity?

Love? Who can intend love. Love happens. Love isn't required to accomplish trust. Love isn't necessary to train someone by using their fears, or to challenge their fears. It doesn't change the dynamic, or at least it shouldn't because it derived from the dynamic. Going deeper in love runs parallel to going deeper in trust. You can build on love. I don't believe it possible to build on fear.

for this slave, who has been able to overcome certain fears, of certain folks(not Master) and activities, Yoda expresses her feelings accurately here:

"fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/2/2007 7:28:31 AM >

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 50

RE: Machevelli Domination (sorry long) - 3/2/2007 7:11:14 AM

charismagirrl

Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
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Sorry longish...
Wow this is such a great topic...lots of great replies too. i haven't read them all yet but wanted to jump while my iron (brain) was sorta hot.

i love the thing 'Troll said (on the first page of the thread) it was really profound ( not really loving the whole festering part LOL but...)

Then there was what ownedgirlie said and juila responded about the extraction of things within someone...about making someone into a vision of what they want them to be etc. All these things and also part of what Amayos was saying made me look at some stuff.

On my second date with my Daddy, in the "getting to know you process" i asked him about something (cant now recall what) and if it really mattered to him or was he going to just change me into something else entirely, so that what i was when i came to him would not be what i would be anyway in the long run. (He didn't really respond but now i am seeing my answer)

Fast forward to last spring when Daddy and i were first living together...i began agonizing over the fact that Daddy didn't punish me or give me lists to do and all of those slavey things i thought would "just be". Sure he was being his naturally dominant self and i was being who i was becoming, my true submissive self (at the time i had no idea how that was happening) But i thought that he wasn't training me, wasn't trying to break me etc....all of the things i just thought would "BE". It was really painful.

my Daddy isn't one to spell out the lessons to me rather waiting until i learn them from living them...but over the summer, when i was still confused he did help me understand one thing, and then THAT opened it all and everything fell neatly into place.

He said that he'd seen girls with Masters that were quick to punish alot or had a zillion rules and eventually they became scared and ran away...they were ultimately submitting to the punishment, or the implement used and not really submitting or surrendering to their Masters. He told me that he would't force it out of me, and that so far i was doing everything to make him happy (save for the fact that just obeying without explanation is still a stumbling stone) He wanted me to just submit to him. Then it sunk in.

This way there is no point in trying to top from the bottom, no resentment or anything of the sort. i do things simply to make him happy and smile his beautiful smile or laugh the laugh that is music to my ears. Do i fear things? Yes, disappointing him (like 'Troll said) But, i am totally submitting to him and not for the fear of what he will do to me if i don't.

As for what ownedgirlie and julia were saying about extraction...although my Daddy doesn't really make me fear him he is completely extracting things from within me....He is making me into a vision of what he wants me to be...but it is ALSO who i REALLY am. He's told me many times that he loves me for who i am, the whole of my experiences and NOT in spite of them.

This being said, he ALSO saw something inside of me when he first saw me and that is who he's been helping me become...this person IS me...the me that was lost and hidden away...the me that can only be when i am surrendered to him. SO he is extracting the real me from behind the internal wall of ice and he is also helping me GROW and change into something that may have never been able to be without him.

So extracting something doesn't have to always mean something that wasn't already there...on the contrary...one can't extract something that wasn't there to begin with (can they? think about it

) You can't take something out of something unless it was in there to begin with.....It's kind of like finding seeds that hadn't been watered or given a chance to bloom and giving them all the care they need.....It won't turn a rose into a daisy no matter what you do to it. But, without proper care whatever flower you have will either not sprout or will wither and die.

Okay, this became too deep for this early in my day....lol

Edited to add: (never mind) LOL

< Message edited by charismagirrl -- 3/2/2007 7:25:18 AM >

_____________________________

For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

http://www.mycollarspace.com

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 51

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:15:24 AM

nissa

Posts: 125
Joined: 2/28/2007
From: Carson City Nevada
Status: offline

quote:

I don't see this as an either/or question in a relationship, but I do see having some fear as as being useful; I don't think love is necessary either, but respect is.

If I may ask? How do you see fear as being useful? Just curious and trying to understand the concept of this .

_____________________________

nissa

(in reply to happypervert)

Post #: 52

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:21:19 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Because if bdsm actvity doesn't many times inspire fear (and I am speaking of anything from apprehension to flat-out dread), then what does it inspire? I guess I am objecting a little to the use of "fear" as a dirty word here. Because I thought is was sort of a "given" already, considering the context in which we are operating.

It can inspire fear, but in me it often inspires trust.

quote:

I do realize it was merely a question (and posed to Dominants, and I'm not, I am a submissive), and that the OP was maybe not insinuating, perhaps, that either is "good" or "bad" but still - the premise seems to be somehow that "fear" possibly has no place in a bdsm relationship, when (to me) it seems to be the basis for more than a little bdsm activity. Otherwise, (presumably) it's "vanilla." Isn't it?

I aimed it at dominants but expected everyone to comment and that is why I posted this in general discussion. As for judgment... I do not have a judgment about the use of fear personally. I have a preference of what works for me, but no judgment on others.

quote:

My premise would be that anyone who enjoys bdsm activity also (to some degree) enjoys either inducing fear, or experiencing fear, sometimes, and it's a mattter of degree.

There are fear junkies, I am an endorphin junkie. I welcome the introduction of fear in play if he desires, but I truly have not been afraid of our play. I have felt the deepening of trust though.

quote:

So - are we speaking only of methods used, or end-results aspired to? Or both? Does that matter?

Is it the difference between relating to a submissive who "knows it's just a game?" and one who might not be fully convinced of that, at all times?
Because, presumably, this is all consensual activity, too.

I mean no disrespect at all (truly I don't, juliaoceania) - but mine really is a serious question and-or comment.

I will think on these question, and I do not feel disrespected to see the thread go which ever way it winds. I started it to generate thought... which ever way it goes. I am enjoying reading everyone.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 53

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:40:48 AM

charismagirrl

Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

What does Dominance of the bdsm type inspire then? "Merely" devotion? Love? All the time? Is it any different than a "vanilla" relationship? "Vanilla" relationships inspire devotion and love as well. Is it the "route to devotion" (or love) that is merely the different factor? Or is it the end-goal sometimes achieved via bdsm activity that is different and to be sought-after?

I'm not saying the thread isn't on point, it's just that now it has me thinking...

I realize it is a matter of taste and degree, but if bdsm relationships, er, make that bdsm activity, never inspired fear at all, wouldn't they be "vanilla?"

- Susan

Susan,

i had to respond because this was exactly the quandary i had last spring with my Daddy. Evrything seemed so natural and sooo normal that i feared that ours was a vanilla relationship (GASP! the HORROR

) Then after some time and some lessons learned i realized that i wasn't seeing the whole picture.

my Daddy is dominant in that he has the final say in everything we do...he can't be manipulated by me. He is also dominant in the fact that he is teaching me and helping me grow....This stuff sticks in me and makes real changes much longer than when we play or when i have been punished (the handful of times)...It's much more subtle and there have been times when i just didn't think i was a slave.....Then something happens and i realize i am in really really deep slave space (which to me is something seperate from subspace)

Also, rather than inspiring fear in me my Daddy tries to help me FACE my fears and go past them.

< Message edited by charismagirrl -- 3/2/2007 7:42:05 AM >

_____________________________

For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

http://www.mycollarspace.com

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 54

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:46:54 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
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Found this on a website today.

"When that sexual 'chemistry' happens, it can be the ultimate experience, involving love, intimacy, trust, longing, and possibly danger as well."

I don't think I'd want to choose ... or even could....there's a need for both.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 55

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:53:15 AM

swtrayn

Posts: 222
Joined: 2/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

. I take her frail face in my hand as she kneels before me and lock my eyes to hers and whisper….
I am disappointed.

Those words never hurt some much then when one hears them from the One that is her whole world.

I could not be with a Man I feared, but love, that is where I find my deepest submission.

rayn

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(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 56

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:56:01 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
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Wanted to add ... I see 'fear' in this context as about feeling vulnerable to someone rather than fearful of someone...exposed, pregnable, sensitive, unresistent, accessible, unprotected... stripped of all their protective layers ... open ...

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quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 57

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 7:56:51 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I am enjoying all the responses

Celeste and Troll, both of you gave me a lot to think about, thank you.

I did want to clarify something that charismagirl brought up

quote:

charismagirl

So extracting something doesn't have to always mean something that wasn't already there...on the contrary...one can't extract something that wasn't there to begin with (can they? think about it ) You can't take something out of something unless it was in there to begin with.....It's kind of like finding seeds that hadn't been watered or given a chance to bloom and giving them all the care they need.....It won't turn a rose into a daisy no matter what you do to it. But, without proper care whatever flower you have will either not sprout or will wither and die.

I agree, one cannot extract from another what is not there, and I agree that a dominant can help a submissive stretch and grow into things that she never dreamed possible, and that this is a loving thing to do...

It is hard to put words to methods used to procure this extraction, and I did not mean to say that ownedgirlie and Amayos are not inspired or inspiring. But I will be clear on how I see my own dynamic, I do not feel it is extractive....He seeks my improvement for his benefit, but I do not see him trying to change me in any particular direction, perhaps he does have some master plan of where he wants me to go and who he wants me to be, but it is so subtle I do not see it.

I have been changed in some ways by my dynamic, and he was the catalyst for that change, but he would also tell you that I was the driving force behind it through my own introspection apart from him... he only had to point me and I went. I work hard toward my own self awareness, and that is all he has ever asked of me. I think that the synergy of the relationship guides the direction more than he has some master plan. I think he sees in me things I do not see in myself, and he fully intends me to utilize all that I am in our relationship.

There are those who take a girl down to her bare elements and through training and rebuild her, the military does this also. It is a method of exerting ownership that I have read repeatedly, it is far different from my situation. I think many slaves/submissives benefit immensely from it though. Trying to quantify what I am talking about is hard, but I know that both ownedgirlie and Amayos would be the first to agree that there are differences in the way that people engage in their dynamics, and they would know I am not putting a value judgment on it at all. It is simply a methodology issue, which again is hard to quantify. I can tell from reading ownedgirlie is is inspired in her slavery, and that Amayos seeks to inspire his slaves... I guess words are failing me in my attempt to condense almost a year of reading these differences

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 58

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 8:10:19 AM

findmedaddy

Posts: 254
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Maine
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This is realy beautiful, ft.

(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 59

RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/2/2007 8:15:14 AM

charismagirrl

Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline

julia

i wasn't trying to imply that you were putting any judgements on anything...i read you alot and i know tht you don't do that.

It was more free (rolling through it all) thinking that was inspired by your post (as well as ownedgirlie and amayos and FkinTroll)

Just another view that i hadn't seen and thought i might share...Intitally i was right on with you and then as i read along it made me see more sides to the same coin.

_____________________________

For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

http://www.mycollarspace.com

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 60

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