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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 7:49:48 AM

sublizzie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Not to pick on you Lizzie, but you very clearly articulated something I find worth highlighting. I find it interesting that so many share this distinction between two words that are otherwise synonyms (i.e. Roget's Thesaurus, Punishment (n) syns: correction, discipline, punition). It is interesting that at some point "punishment" became "bad" or "evil" and yet we still have discipline, which is used in the vernacular in the exact same way punishment once was. I have my suspicions about the origins of that divide and redefinement but nothing conclusive. Still, its often the source of misunderstanding in such discussions... two people use the same word, which means different things to each... often without the other being aware.

How many arguments have happened over such a simple misappropriation of words and their meanings? How many judgements made on the basis of such a brief misunderstanding? Would a reminder of the definition of punishment help?

It is always good to have more information. I *like* being corrected when I am clearly wrong. Obviously I was going on my gut definitions rather than looking up the definitions, which I should have done in the first place. Thank you.

I have stated in other threads just this morning that verifying definitions is imperative to have a good conversation with someone. In that case it was about finding someone with similar tastes to hook up with. In this case, it's just as important to be clear as to one's definitions.

(in reply to Padriag)

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 8:16:24 AM

Padriag

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It's not just you though Lizzie, if you look around you will find that many (particularly in the US) share that same "gut" definition as you put it. Now that's a pattern, and all patterns have a reason behind them. But I think that is also a discussion far beyond the scope of this thread or even this forum as to what caused that pattern (personally I blame Skinner, but that too is just a personal opinion and perhaps unfair; I do admire the man and even feel a certain kinship with him). For now it suffices that we understand each other... that is all that we really need to ensure, regardless of the words we use.

Julia does raise a good point, the word punishment and in the way it has historically been applied could be more easily associated with revenge. So much so it prompted Nietzsche to write the following "A strange thing, our punishment! It does not cleanse the criminal, it is no atonement; on the contrary, it pollutes worse than the crime does." I had difficulty understanding his meaning until I put it in the context in which he wrote it. He was not speaking of punishment as discipline (to borrow your definition), but rather the practice of locking people away or hurting them out of revenge. Skinner too, I think shared some of this view, though his idealism took it further than was wise. What is unfortunate is that this is not punishment... but simply revenge. To use your previous example (which again I think illustrates the two common meanings very well), the later example you gave was not a parent correcting the child's behavior through discipline or punishment... but simply taking revenge. The parent had been in some way hurt by the child's behavior, perhaps the parent's sense of authority was offended, and so they took revenge on the child for having done so. "I hurt you because you have hurt me"... this is revenge.

But punishment was never intended to be revenge. Some blame the bibilical concept of "an eye for an eye" for this and I have thought about this and disagree. An eye for an eye is a very exact thing. Taken literally it is not revenge but a very measured punishment, it is stating that if one person harms another they will literally be harmed in the exact same way. This is not revenge, which often takes the route of, "You have harmed me so I will harm you as much as I am able." But I also think that that meaning was probably lost shortly after it was written. It takes a disciplined nature to be so controlled in punishment or discipline (whichever word you prefer, so long as we understand our meanings), but human nature is often not so disciplined and revenge is often the more appealing route. More simply put, we get angry and when angry our self-control often weakens.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 8:29:08 AM

juliaoceania

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The distinction is this Padraig, not all punishment is discipline and not all discipline is punishment. We punish criminals all the time with no intent on rehabilitation. They pay a debt to society. People study something, learn something, become more.. we often talk about discipline in learning. There is a big wide gulf between these two words in our relationship... others use them as synonyms, but we do not. Both words have multiple definitions and not all are synonyms.

Punish
1 a: to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation b: to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation2 a: to deal with roughly or harshly b: to inflict injury on : hurtintransitive verb: to inflict punishment

Main Entry:
1dis·ci·pline

Pronunciation:
\ˈdi-sə-plən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
Date:
13th century
1: punishment2obsolete : instruction3: a field of study4: training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character5 a: control gained by enforcing obedience or order b: orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c: self-control6: a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity You can punish someone to discipline someone, but the meanings of the words are not concisely alike. That is why my Daddy does not punish me, he disciplines me...we are word nazis though

I have to go catch a train folks.. have fun

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/5/2007 8:35:38 AM >

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 11:14:47 AM

SusanofO

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Well. I think when people speak of "punishment" and "discipline", that since it is obvious to me, even more from reading this thread, that the two words "discipline" and "punishment" can mean different things to different people, from now on I intend to ask someone what they mean exactly when they refer to it - not assume what they mean, if it's used in a bdsm context on these forums (unless I have good reason to believe I absolutely do know what someone else means).

Thanks to all for the thoughts on what each sees as discipline and punishment. Much appreciated by me. Yes, I do see a difference, between the two words, (but only kinda) as I stated earlier - only in the sense that I think the term "discipline" can indeed mean more than 1 thing to many people - in fact, as I said, I think it can mean any of 3 things, depending on the context and who you're talking to, whereras usually I've seen people mostly give "punishment" a negative connotation, and mostly after that then see it as vengeful only, much of the time, when the intent could in fact be "even-handed, correction" instead. Padriag shed new light on this for me (in a very clarifying way).

***What seems to stand out (to me) from this entire discussion is that, regardless of whether "discipline" is viewed as "corrective" discipline" or as "punishment" (yet still intended to be corrective, and not merely vengeful and appeasing to the Dominant - intended for true "correction") it seems very important that the"punishment" or "correction", if you will, "fit the "crime" if it is meant to "correct" bad behavior - so as not to merely appease a Dominant's bad mood - over valuing its likely value in doing that, and instead be viewed a "vengeful" or over-the-top, by the submissive. *Hopefully, a submissive knows how her Dominant views such things as "correction" and what kinds of negative behavior might merit "correction". And hopefully, any submisive with much foresight, as far as choosing a Dominant would value knowing enough about a Dominant to trust he would not use "punishment" in "anger" (more on this, below).

For many here on the boards (and myself) I still think the word "discipline" can be taken 3 ways -

1) In a casual or "play" (bdsm activity) context, as in: "I am going to "discipline" you, you naughty sub" (and both people involved know it's pleasurable in intent). Using it in this way, IMO, is not where confusion usually has arisen, from my obervations (at least, not today, lol!

unless - someone says they don't ever enjoy this in "play or bdsm activity" (as in: "I've never enjoyed and S/m activity, not even mild spanking"). I'd doubt that was true, if someone claimed it, but I suppose it could be true. This isn't what we're trying to define here, though, really, at all. So on we go to - context number...

2) The word "discipline" meaning something in a somewhat nuetral sense, If one sees the word "punishment" only as vengeful or retributive (but it still, in this #2 sense, can mean "corrective" in the sense one is forming a new habit (disciplining someone, or oneself, to lose weight, or arise earlier, for example).

I can see in this context where "discipline" could be "corrective" in the sense it might be "correcting" something someone sees as a "flaw" in themselves, OR a Dominant asking (or demanding) a submissive discipline themself this way, as imposing a "mere" form of "control", which could, IMO, in the right circumstances be viewed as "corrective" only (nuetral) - after all; you're "correcting" a weight problem if you go on a diet, period, IMO, no matter what the reason or who has asked you do do it,or who has "imposed" the demand on you - because the underlying problem, overweight, is being lessened or "corrected".

However, this reference to supposedly "nuetral" (in it's intent) discipline, could also be viewed as "punitive" (forced weight loss to atone for something, for example) and so as a "correction" for some other bad behavior, IMO. In this case, it is "punitive" as in also "correcting" behavior, but more as some see the word "punishment" in a retributive sense of the word, even in a bdsm context, for some reason, even if it is intended by many Dominants,as "corrective" as well, and even if the "punishment" in not vengefully motivated (*hence such phrasea we hear as: "Never punish in anger" given as "advice" on "how to be a responsible Dominant, on bdsm site references on the topic, and probably in many books written on the topic, too.

To me (obviously, and to many others I'd guess) however - this is where the waters can become muddied, and confusion can arise and I can see why people would want "discipline" to mean either one definition or the other - and not two things instead (and yet, it does mean two things, really, to many).

***However - I feel compelled to ask this: After Padraig's clarification of the word in a bdsm context, how "retributive" and "vengeful" can the term "discipline" OR "punishment" really be - if the intent is to "correct" bad behavior, and is not revenge or vengeful, because the "punishment" indeed does "fit the crime?" (or even, IMO, if the intent for such is clearly there?) In this way, I see "discipline" no differently than "punishment" if it "just and "fair" and is not "Revenge", but is an act that seeks to "correct" bad behavior, by imposing a consequence for it (as "discipline" in the right context, can also do).

I appreciated Padriag's (and Lizzie's) added thoughts (that some other Dominants, and others, have echoed before, and here, on the forums) that "punishment" in the sense a responsible and even-handed Dominants would use it, would never value (or try darn hard not to, anyway) salving a bad mood or "need for revenge" over the value it might have in actually "correcting" a submissive's negative behavior. *Thus we hear such phrases as "never punish in anger", as "advice" on how to be a good and responsible Dominant (on many site references on the topic, and threads on this forum I've read).

*Does that mean no irresponsible Domiants exist - anywhere? No, of course it doesn't. Anymore than saying good submissive don't exist anywhere, simply because "gamey" submissives actually do exist, IMO.

Interesting thread!

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/5/2007 12:13:56 PM >

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 12:06:30 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

We look at this the same way, Padriag. We just came at it from differing word usage. I know and agree that I am indeed responsible for my actions and thoughts and that they are not separate from me. As explained, I came at it in the way I did to differentiate between two types of fear.

I think there is much in this discussion that needs to be defined and differentiated to avoid misunderstandings. If I seem severe it is because I feel the need to be to avoid those misunderstandings. And also because I believe that as dominants we should be most severe with ourselves, most disciplined with ourselves. Whether that be with our actions or even our words, because much depends on us. But then too, we could differentiate between types of dominants... whether someone who adopts that as a style of life (as I often mean) or someone who is only dominant in the bedroom or at a play party (which would be far less demanding and entail less responsibility). That you might help in illustrating those differences would be welcome.

Agreed. I too am in this for the lifestyle and not bedroom/play party only.

That is why the confusion over the meaning of my words strikes me...the writer...in such an ironic fashion as I am a big believer in the idea of personal responsibility. For all that a dominant is responsible for, there are indeed things that a submissive is responsible for. Thoughts and actions not dictated by me and chosen by her are indeed her personal responsibility and the infliction of punishment/discipline is an action which I take responsibility for. Just as I take responsibility for all other thoughts and actions emanating from me.

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 12:19:50 PM

SusanofO

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IMO, as a potential submissive to a Dominant, I feel I am responsible for clarifying things I may not understand, as far as actions dictated by a Dominant (and even a potential one), and for choosing a responsible, caring one, (my value system talking, as well as common sense, IMO), and knowing he's going to try to be that, and allow me to ask questions (by getting to know him, and asking questions, etc. - not in a "grilling" sense, but in a friendly, "it's a fair question" sense) - to find out their D/s "philosophy", as far as what merits "discipline" (meaning punishment, and maybe also meaning "control" - in a relationsip w/a submissive.

Although I personally like "mere control" more than "punishment", I'd ask (and say I appreciated if) both be clarified, or if we could discuss them (more than in very vague terms), I mean "vague", as in a Dominant saying: "I imposeit if someone doesn't do what I say", (personally, I feel I'd need more detail) -

I'd ask for past examples (and maybe potential future ones), in brief, of what their viewpoint is as far as what "discipline" means, and what "punishment" means (and under what kinds of conditions - in brief, each might apply), to see what they'd say to me (but it would be a give-and-take discussion, not "grilling" someone, so they could get to know me as well, in the process (because that is something I feel that would be important, because everyone is different, and presumably we want to cooperate. Wow, the word "co-habit" (having, or forming the same habits, as someone else, just poppled into my head just now. Weird how the mind can work).

My intent would be to want to know these things - so I could be a responsible potential submissive (and also find out if they knew what it means to them (I think they should have some "philosophy" on the topic), and if we "mesh" as far as our thoughts on these ideas of someone not being "Vengeful" if "corrective" (which doesn't mean it might not hurt, btw). I'd also pay attention to see if they were reliable in other ways - maybe as much as they'd be paying attention to see if I was reliable in ways that mattered to them, too. Anyway...

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/5/2007 12:57:32 PM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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