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RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 7:44:13 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:


It appears that mind reading is also one of your talents...although you do not seem to be very good at it.
My question was pretty straightforward....

But why did you ask the question? What were you assuming about me that prompted you to ask the question?
quote:

I don't need a page of psychobabble...

You call it psychobabble. I call it seeing reality for what it is and not living in a fantasy world. I call it being objective and refusing to follow the scripts that others have laid out for me (criticizing "A" doesn’t automatically mean that I want to ass kiss "B"). I call it refusing to simplistically label some as the "can do no wrong" good guys and others as the "can do no right" bad guys.
quote:

My only point was and is that the U.S, does not have a very good track record of keeping its word.

Tell me something I don’t know. Then show me a nation that does have a good track record of keeping it’s word.
quote:

I find it interesting that you use the bully analogy to justify your junior high school behaviour

I don’t justify defending myself because I don’t need to justify defending myself.
quote:

and then transfer the bully identity from the U.S. to any other nation that the U.S, wants to thug out of thier assets.

Transfer? Now who’s talking psychobabble? I’m not transferring anything. It’s an analogy concerning the right to defend oneself from threats and attack. Contrary to what meatcleaver thinks, I do see the monster in the mirror but (unlike some people it seems) I also see the monster standing outside the door.

Mark2b:
It appears that in addition to not being able to read minds very well you also seem not to be able to read english.  Perhaps you might get someone who does read and comprehend english to read my post for you and explain them to you. 
The fact that some other countries also do not honor their treaties is not the point.  The point is that the U.S. has a poor record of keeping its word.  The U.S. does have a good record of thugging other countries out of their assets and it would seem that you approve of that by suggesting that those countries somehow posed a threat to the U.S.
thompson

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 8:14:41 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Not you, YOU. But You, You.

Perhaps, "If y'all torture someone for a good reason, y'all'll torture someone for any reason", better illustrates the plurality of the subject.


Okay, I am now officially confused.  Just what the hell are you talking about?

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Profile   Post #: 202
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 8:28:12 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		In English, "You" can refer to the singular, or the plural.

It appeared there was some confusion about to whom the comment "If you torture someone for a good reason..." was directed.

It was directed towards all of us, the plural form of "You", hence my clarification with the (formally incorrect, but oh, so grammatically useful! ) vernacular "Y'all".



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 203
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 8:35:44 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

In English, "You" can refer to the singular, or the plural.

It appeared there was some confusion about to whom the comment "If you torture someone for a good reason..." was directed.

It was directed towards all of us, the plural form of "You", hence my clarification with the (formally incorrect, but oh, so grammatically useful! ) vernacular "Y'all".



farglebargle;
I have lived in the south for many years and while I too find y'all to be a grammatically useful term I have never been able to get anyone to explane the difference between y'all and all y'all.  Any help y'all can offer me'ens in this matter would be sorely appreciated.
thanx y'all.
thompson

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 9:20:42 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

The fact that some other countries also do not honor their treaties is not the point. The point is that the U.S. has a poor record of keeping its word. The U.S. does have a good record of thugging other countries out of their assets and it would seem that you approve of that by suggesting that those countries somehow posed a threat to the U.S.


Yes it is the point. I am not a believer in the Bible but if it got anything right it hit the nail on the head with "all have sinned." You justify the bad behavior of one by pointing to the bad behavior of another based upon the naive and simplistic view that the world can be divided into the good guys and the bad guys. You place all the blame on one while giving a pass to the other. Say the United States asked Iran for a list of grievances and their demands for redress of those grievances? The U.S. then fulfils those demands to the letter. Do you honestly believe that they would stop funding terrorism? Do you honestly believe that the religious fanatics that rule the country would suddenly turn into nice guys who want to give us hugs? These guys are on a religious mission to make the world Muslim. This has been going on since the religion was founded, long before the United States existed. The Muslim world invaded and conquered Spain. They invaded France (and were defeated, yes folks, Western Civilization was once saved by the French – go figure), they invaded Greece and the Balkans (then cried foul when the Europe counter-attacked). Now these same fanatics want nuclear weapons. This is not a good combination.

The key would in your statement is "seem." This is what I mean when I say "following the scripts." You read into my post what you wanted to read into it based upon your preconceived notions. Since I dared to criticize the "good guys," you assumed I must be all for current American foreign policy, that I probably have posters of Ollie North and Rush Limbaugh on my walls, and believe that we should nuke’em all now and let God sort them out (believing all that you then follow the script into making false assumptions about my intelligence – a cop out, nothing more). Nothing could be further from the truth. I would love to see a true peace come about between the Muslim world and the Western world in which both sides grievances are redressed. Until that day I just think it would be really stupid to give up our nukes. Maybe you and farglebargle and others want to drop your defenses in face of an obvious and real threat but the rest of us don’t want to see mushroom clouds over America or Europe and would like to give the other guys a reason to pause and reconsider their actions, knowing that their actions could come back to bite them in the ass.

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RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 10:00:31 AM   
ferryman777


Posts: 198
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		such a great informative thread; what arguements you guys rage. From what I can see; ...all one needs to do is.....Follow the money.
Why this Iraq thing started, who would profit from it? 9-11 ....what was the cause, Saddam? or was it to galvanize a nation against a concieved, manufactured threat, for some political agenda? To( pre-emptive) attack on the presumption the other is going to attack?  The 'bullie' in the hallway thingie, unruly neighbors next door? ...Just open up oil fields in Alaska if you want more oil.... what the hell is that??? ...it's not about wanting more oil, or flooding the world with oil......it's about the money that can be made, raising prices for even less oil, controlling the world wide oil market; what the hell is the 'bullie' concoction?  It's about the aftermath of the election process...raising taxes , bankrupting the country; blaming the Dems for what choas is to come. Time and newsweek both reported Rice et al admitted they were mistaken, anyone remember those issues/ articles? Iraq was still invaded, occupied and Saddam hanged. Talk about communism being linked with Nazism; are you stupid or what? China is a communist nation...and Walmarts abound in the USofA;  virtually every product on sale bears the mark....made in China; worldwide. If you go to France, want a Eiffiel Tower souvenir, it is made in China; Sheplers USA sells cowboy boots.....made in China. The US fought with excessive fevor the evils of communism, everywhere in the world......except where it concerned China; there now, the US embraced China to this very hour. Bush sr. played tennis with the Chinese embassor in Peking at the dawn of the Tienamin Square event. The US auto industry is based in China now. So, what the hell do you think is going on with Iraq and Iran, and the world oil supply?
You argue and focus on morals, when it should be....Money. Who's going to profit by this contrived mayhem? You argue Clinton could have done this, shirked here, lied heare and there, Reagan was controlled by the House Dems so he must be forgiven. Clinton can not be even however he was controlled by....the what? house. Anyone remember Knewt Ginrich?
The Patriot Act has in all effect done away with the US consitution, and....will become the standing law of the land with the consitution and bill of rights being just a sidebar to US history. How did that all that happen??? oh, Clinton, I suppose is to blame.
I dunno anything, sorry for my intrusion.

(in reply to Sternhand4)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 11:48:04 AM   
MasDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Just in case anyone missed the headline: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070302/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/new_warheads

We don't want North Korea to have nukes and we are on the brink of expanding our war into Iran but the good old USA once again shows how inept it's leadership is and decide that now is a good time to replace our nuclear warheads. Pray tell where is this money to replace them coming from? What kind of message does this send around the world? Obviously the USA is not interested in dismantling it's arsenal. I am terribly confused by all of this. I think that it is hypocritical to say one thing and do another but this isn't really a shock coming from George W and his cronies.

Bush may well go down in history as the worst president that this country has ever had. I am not really into politics but this headline disturbed me.


Did you take the time to read the article ? Or did you just read the headline?
The USA is a nuclear power. You may resent this but its a fact.
Its always good to try and make a safer weapon. All mechanical systems fail in time. Its only prudent to replace older systems with newer ones.
We will, according to the article be able to reduce the number of weapons with the newer model.  So it will reduce the stockpile.

Preventing nuclear proliferation is not just an American policy its an international policy ( BTW  N Korea signed and broke this treaty )

Iran's pursuit of this technology is scary as to their primary religious fervor for strapping bombs to themselves. If they have no qualms using conventional explosives to attack civilians while blowing themselves up, what makes you think they'd resist using nukes?







Why in the hell would we want to reduce the stock pile.
I say leave a nuke next to every star bucks and show em we mean business.

That and I like the fact of mutagenic coffee...

(in reply to Sternhand4)
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RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 6:01:45 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

If torture means we are on a slippery slope, then we have been on it for a very long time.
 
The connection you are making here, has a questionable connection at best, and is a disconnect at worst. Exactly whom (what nation) would you say, has not tortured at some point?


The fact that it is not possible to find countries that have not tortured at some point seems rather moot to me.

I pay taxes to support a government that supports ideals I have.  These ideals include fairness, tenderness, love, and caring for the humanity.

I suppose there are people (some of whom post here) who are more than willing to live in a 1984ish dystopia, but this is not something I am willing to sign on and be a part of.

And yes, I am politically and socially active.

Sinergy


_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 208
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 6:45:54 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

In English, "You" can refer to the singular, or the plural.

Yes, I seem to remember my English teachers droning on about that.
quote:

It appeared there was some confusion about to whom the comment "If you torture someone for a good reason..." was directed.

It was directed towards all of us, the plural form of "You", hence my clarification with the (formally incorrect, but oh, so grammatically useful! ) vernacular "Y'all".

The irony here is that we seem to be in fundamental agreement. People ulitmately don’t need a reason. Reasons ("I’m doing God's work") are merely excuses.

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Profile   Post #: 209
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 6:48:13 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

what the hell is the 'bullie' concoction?

It’s an analogy concerning the justifications of the pre-emptive strike. My personal belief is that if you know that you are going to be attacked then you might as well land the first punch. farglebargle seems to think that the moral thing is to stand there and take that first blow before reacting, but what if the first blow is a nuclear bomb going off in one of your cities? Where’s the morality in allowing so many deaths when they could have been prevented? Meanwhile, thompsonx seems to think that because we are bad boys we have no right to defend ourselves.
quote:

Talk about communism being linked with Nazism; are you stupid or what?

I fail to understand why people don’t understand this. Consider any oppressive system, the Catholic Church during the Inquisition, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, what do they have in common? The oppression. What is the underlying cause of the oppression? The human desire for power. The human desire to feel superior to others. The ideology involved (Catholicism, Fascism, Communism, etc.) is merely the justification. People pick sides and say that the problem is Fascism or Communism or religious fundamentalism or the Bush administration when the problem is human nature itself.
quote:

You argue and focus on morals, when it should be....Money.

Money is merely a tool for the easy transportation and accumulation of wealth which in itself is a means to power.

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RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 8:49:55 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
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Status: offline 		Mark2b:
There you go trying to read minds again.  Perhaps you should have spent a bit more time in studying english and history instead of psychobable.
I use the word seem because I do not wish to put words in your mouth.  I ask you to clarify your position.  I do not know nor do I care who you put pictures of on your wall.
You seem to forget that the shah was a U.S. puppet...did you think the iranians did not notice.  The U.S. has started or insinuated itself into every war we have been involved in since the inception of this country.  Every inch of the U.S,  with the possible exception of Alaska, has been acquired at the point of a gun or the threat of it.  Your bully analogy is just backwards.  It is the U.S, that is the bully and you keep trying to turn it around.  No one is bullying the U.S,   There are countries in the world who are saying that they are upfed and sick of it.  It appears that you take this as bullying.
BTW Charles Martel was not french.
thompson

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/12/2007 10:33:23 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You seem to forget that the shah was a U.S. puppet...

What have I said that would lead you to think that?
quote:

Every inch of the U.S, with the possible exception of Alaska, has been acquired at the point of a gun or the threat of it.

Show me a nation that hasn’t expanded without violence.
quote:

Your bully analogy is just backwards. It is the U.S, that is the bully and you keep trying to turn it around. No one is bullying the U.S, There are countries in the world who are saying that they are upfed and sick of it. It appears that you take this as bullying.

For the last fucking time, the bully analogy is in reference to the morality (or lack thereof) of the pre-emptive strike. Please point out to me where I "keep trying to turn it around."
quote:

BTW Charles Martel was not french.

No shit. But the Franks were the antecedents of the French. I used the modern term because I was merely making a point, not giving a dissertation of medieval history.

As for the other thread:
quote:

It appears that you have a mantra that you now recite rather than answer questions. In case you are not aware the Geneva Convention, which we signed, prohibits the kind of war you advocate.

Since you seem to be the expert in reading minds, please describe to me in detail the kind of war I advocate and how it would violate the Geneva Convention?
quote:

So in lieu of your mantra you appear to be saying that your word is no good that you will put your signature to anything that is advantagious to you and then repudiate it when it is in your interests to do so.

Where you are getting this from I have no idea. Is it because I believe we shouldn’t disarm ourselves of our nukes which some people think is a violation of the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty (which does not require us to disarm ourselves).
quote:

That sounds an awful lot like a bully...something you keep saying everyone who disagrees with you is.

When have I said this?
quote:

When I say you I mean you personally because you keep making the analogy to the bully in the school yard and the hypothetical lunatic next door to you and the fact that you have three guns and have no compunction to using them if it is in your interests.

If the interest is living, yeah, you’re God damned right I have an interest. I think you’ll find that the vast majority of human beings have an interest in self preservation. I make no apologies for it.
quote:

This is what I have gleaned from your psychobable. If I am mistaken then please disabuse of me and tell me what you think.....or is it back to the psychobabble?

You’re frequent aspersions upon my intelligence is nothing but a cheap cop out. If you don’t understand what I am saying then say so. What purpose are the aspersions serving you? Do they make you feel superior? Remember, it is all a matter of degrees.

Bottom line: from where I’m sitting you appear to cast the players on the world stage into simple roles of good and evil, the bad guy and the good guy, but I don’t see any good guys. The world isn’t that simple. The bad behavior of one is not a justification for the bad behavior of another (and I do not consider self defense, regardless of the other guys real or imagined motivations, bad behavior). But you seem to have chosen sides and refuse to consider anything that challenges your "A" is good and "B" is bad view of things. This is all to common in modern politics where, for example, each side (say, conservatives versus liberals) constantly scream about the other side’s scandals while rationalizing away their own side’s scandals. The maintenance of the ideology, the comfortable world view, is paramount and takes precedence over truth. Nothing must be allowed to get in the way of our feeling of smug superiority.

One last note: let’s be honest with each other. We both use words like "seem" and "appears" a lot because we want some room to wiggle out if we are caught in a mistake. We should grant each other that much.

Once again I have stayed up way past my bed time (looks like another "Yawning Day" at work tomorrow). So far only you and LordandMaster have had this power over me. I think I will take a break from the message boards tomorrow and play "Age of Mythology instead.

Good night.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 212
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 7:48:34 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You seem to forget that the shah was a U.S. puppet...

What have I said that would lead you to think that?
Try using the whole quote next time...your post would be the source of my thinking.
 
 

quote:

Every inch of the U.S, with the possible exception of Alaska, has been acquired at the point of a gun or the threat of it.

Show me a nation that hasn’t expanded without violence.
We were talking about the U.S. and your belief that we react to bullies.  I was pointing out that the U.S. is the bully.
 
 

quote:

Your bully analogy is just backwards. It is the U.S, that is the bully and you keep trying to turn it around. No one is bullying the U.S, There are countries in the world who are saying that they are upfed and sick of it. It appears that you take this as bullying.

For the last fucking time, the bully analogy is in reference to the morality (or lack thereof) of the pre-emptive strike. Please point out to me where I "keep trying to turn it around."
Actually you are the one who keeps trying to turn it around by saying that the U.S. needs to strike first in the face of bullying by other nations.


quote:

BTW Charles Martel was not french.

No shit. But the Franks were the antecedents of the French. I used the modern term because I was merely making a point, not giving a dissertation of medieval history.
Charles Martel was not a Frank either.

As for the other thread:
quote:

It appears that you have a mantra that you now recite rather than answer questions. In case you are not aware the Geneva Convention, which we signed, prohibits the kind of war you advocate.

Since you seem to be the expert in reading minds, please describe to me in detail the kind of war I advocate and how it would violate the Geneva Convention?
I do not claim to be a mind reader just a reader of your posts.  I asked you if your definition of war and how it should be fought, was not a violation of the Geneva Convention.


quote:

So in lieu of your mantra you appear to be saying that your word is no good that you will put your signature to anything that is advantagious to you and then repudiate it when it is in your interests to do so.

Where you are getting this from I have no idea. Is it because I believe we shouldn’t disarm ourselves of our nukes which some people think is a violation of the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty (which does not require us to disarm ourselves).
Perhaps you should read your posts before you put your name on them.


quote:

That sounds an awful lot like a bully...something you keep saying everyone who disagrees with you is.

When have I said this?
Your position on Iran as stated in your posts.


quote:

When I say you I mean you personally because you keep making the analogy to the bully in the school yard and the hypothetical lunatic next door to you and the fact that you have three guns and have no compunction to using them if it is in your interests.

If the interest is living, yeah, you’re God damned right I have an interest. I think you’ll find that the vast majority of human beings have an interest in self preservation. I make no apologies for it.
It seems that your definition of the threshold of life threatning situations is unique.


quote:

This is what I have gleaned from your psychobable. If I am mistaken then please disabuse of me and tell me what you think.....or is it back to the psychobabble?

You’re frequent aspersions upon my intelligence is nothing but a cheap cop out. If you don’t understand what I am saying then say so. What purpose are the aspersions serving you? Do they make you feel superior? Remember, it is all a matter of degrees.
I have cast no aspersions on your intelligence...your posts however state in your own words that you were not the most attentive student in english or history.

Bottom line: from where I’m sitting you appear to cast the players on the world stage into simple roles of good and evil, the bad guy and the good guy,
Please let me disabuse you of that notion here and now.  There are neither good guys nor bad guys, just the shit that happens.


but I don’t see any good guys. The world isn’t that simple. The bad behavior of one is not a justification for the bad behavior of another (and I do not consider self defense, regardless of the other guys real or imagined motivations, bad behavior).
ROFLMAO...You have managed to contradict yourself in the same sentence.
A man reaches into his pocket to get a photo of his grand child to show you and you shoot him in the head because you thought he was going for a gun and you do not consider that to be bad behaviour? ROFLMAO


But you seem to have chosen sides and refuse to consider anything that challenges your "A" is good and "B" is bad view of things. This is all to common in modern politics where, for example, each side (say, conservatives versus liberals) constantly scream about the other side’s scandals while rationalizing away their own side’s scandals. The maintenance of the ideology, the comfortable world view, is paramount and takes precedence over truth. Nothing must be allowed to get in the way of our feeling of smug superiority.
If you were to peruse my posts you will find no such thing.

One last note: let’s be honest with each other. We both use words like "seem" and "appears" a lot because we want some room to wiggle out if we are caught in a mistake. We should grant each other that much.
I don't need wiggle room.  I use the words seem and appears to indicate that I am unsure of anothers position and am seeking clarification.  I do not use those words to describe my opinions or position.  When I am wrong (yes it happens rarely) I appologize.

Once again I have stayed up way past my bed time (looks like another "Yawning Day" at work tomorrow).
Once again I am unclear as to your meaning....are you doing eustachian tube research or is that you have an uninteresting job?  If it is the former I wish you good luck with your endeavours...if it is the later....dat sux.
 

So far only you and LordandMaster have had this power over me.
It is rather fulfilling to know that you consider me in such a light.

I think I will take a break from the message boards tomorrow and play "Age of Mythology instead.
If I had the choice of playing "Age of Mythology" or putting up with my shit "Age of Mythology" would be the clear winner.
thompson

Good night.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 8:55:54 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Nevermind.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/13/2007 8:57:20 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 214
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 9:04:10 AM   
ferryman777


Posts: 198
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		Money....translates to power, the more money you have, the more power. That is a given. To debate it's just  'human nature' as a root cause for all evil is sheer stupidity, an excuse for one's actions. I never aspired to murder, mutilations, waging war for ......money. I never sought to kill my competition, if I wanted more, then I sought to excell in my profession, offer more to my clients, better quality. Oh, I get it now; I'm not in position to, not monied, oh, that's it, if I were, then I would do the very same...right? So, what's your debate then? Human nature dictates we are all the same Bush scum. We all seek to control, to dehumanize, to exploit, if we were positioned with the means/money/power. There is no debate then. We...are...all the same. So why do you argue so?

There are those in power, who seek even more power, use people's lives like toys, they seek ultimate control and to dehumanize those they see as nothing more than fodder for consumption. These types are pure evil, revel in other's suffering; and devote their entire being to control over other's lives. What !!!! can you say the Bush have given to the world, to make it a better place; how have the Bush raised the world population to greatness? Do they not have the means to raise (I don't mean to raise, bring down, that they do well enough)  the human condition? Name me the benifits we have or will derive from their idealogies.

We have now ....a professional Army.....as they call it. What is a mercenary, if not a professional soldier?  A professional does as his/her Master dictates, he/she recieves compensation for obeying the dictates of his employer. Military is an industry, and pays rather well, better than private enterprise.

How come, the Bush can spend into the trillions + dollars, on war, yet not a red cent on benifiting their subjects, not ever a 'war' to wage on poverty, health care; improving life; jobs????? instead, cutting & gutting each and every social program yet devised, seeking the dismantlement of Social Security; as did Reagan by the way, which brought about an outcry of even the republicans; oh, sorry... Reagan was in control of a Democratic house then? Are you going to benifit from the war and the Bush power idealogy?  Been to the gas pump lately? Applied for a home loan lately? Been to 'Food 4 Less' lately.....there is no food for less.

Communism, Facisism, all the same under differing labels; my point is....the outcry of Nazi idealogy, the comparing of anyone who is out of favor and needs to be removed is compared to Hitler and the Nazi; is nothing but media hype;  yet Chairman Mao, the communist regime as it is now; is embraced by the US. Trade is of a paramount endeavour not by China offering anything to win the trade, but by the US using the communist, giving the entire US industries to China. So, they manufacture goods for less; and pay to ship to the US but the Ford, Chevy, Cadillac go up in price. So...could one not conclude then, the US was never a democracy, but ...'communist' all along?  The war on communisim was all a lie, media hype. Walmart advertises Low Everyday Prices-Always; yet when you shop there, the prices are just about the same as anywhere else. The US embraces China, so then, communism must be okay. It is an excellent endeavour of  media marketing; that is all.

How come, the US post Office advertises EBay? Why not advertise.....'Joe's Neighborhood Hardware'.....I mean, what is this?

Pre-emptive strike.......is nothing but a cloud for an unprovoked aggressive invasion of another country. An excuse to justify, and sell the invasion to the public, the government's subjects,  for acceptance and support of said invasion. To do that, you need an event to galvanize the populace. Hilter used the Reightstag to galvanized the German people against the Jews.

You shout the other guy is going to attack us, yet no such evidence exists. But you just ' think'..... the other guy is going to attack, so you hit him first. Right?

Then the another guy sees you hit the one guy, and he begins to prepare himself  lest you hit him to; but that you don't want. You want to have the upper hand.  So, you threaten him, and start shouting this 'another' guy is going to hit you, so you must hit him first too. Right?
Pre-emptive is an open ended excuse for aggression. To be used whenever and where ever it suits your purpose.


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 9:16:05 AM   
ferryman777


Posts: 198
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		Okay, I noticed at the bottom of these posts....reply to, etc.
I don't know how to reply to a specific person as yet, so please pardon and do not get offended. My previous post was in reply to Marc2b's comments I made earlier.

Thank you.

(in reply to ferryman777)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 9:18:31 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		use the reply button at the top of the persons you are replying to (to the right of the date and time of the post) 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to ferryman777)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 1:37:49 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Okay, I’ve got the afternoon off from work, so...
quote:

Try using the whole quote next time...your post would be the source of my thinking.

You seem to forget that the shah was a U.S. puppet... etc."
Is that better?
quote:

We were talking about the U.S. and your belief that we react to bullies. I was pointing out that the U.S. is the bully.

You keep using the singular "the." It is from this that you appear to be giving a pass to others.
quote:

Actually you are the one who keeps trying to turn it around by saying that the U.S. needs to strike first in the face of bullying by other nations.

No. I am in no way advocating a "strike first every time" policy. I am, however, maintaining the right – and even the moral duty – to strike first in the case of an obvious and known threat. Say, a bunch of religious nutcases who want to kill us getting their hands on nuclear weapons. I ask again, if you could prevent a city from going up in nuclear flames, and you can prevent it with a pre-emptive strike, and don’t, where is the morality in that?
quote:

Actually you are the one who keeps trying to turn it around by saying that the U.S. needs to strike first in the face of bullying by other nations.

See above.
quote:

Charles Martel was not a Frank either.

Sigh. No shit (again). If memory serves he was born in Beligum. But Charles did not fight off the Muslim army single handedly, he commanded troops and most of them were Franks.
quote:

I do not claim to be a mind reader just a reader of your posts. I asked you if your definition of war and how it should be fought, was not a violation of the Geneva Convention.

No, it’s not. I have no problem with adhering to the Geneva Convention. I do have a problem with adding on a bunch of dumb ass rules of engagement like not firing on a mosque even though enemy fire is coming from it (if they don’t want their mosques bombed they shouldn’t use them for firing positions) or taking no offensive action because it is Ramadan (at least the military shot that one down) whose sole purpose is to make us look good on television (as if war can ever look good).
quote:

Perhaps you should read your posts before you put your name on them.

Meaning?
quote:

Your position on Iran as stated in your posts.

The bully analogy remains just that, an analogy. My position on Iran is the same as my position on any nation that represents a threat. If that nutcase dictator in Venezuela was trying to get his hands on nuclear weapons my position would be the same – A healthy dose of understanding of the potential consequences of stupid decisions – "just remember asshole, we’ve got nukes too, and ours can strike anywhere in the world in about thirty-six minuets or less." And if we got intelligence that said he was definitely going to use nukes against us – then it’s time to call out the stealth fighters.
quote:

It seems that your definition of the threshold of life threatning situations is unique.

I refuse to believe that I am the only person on the planet that thinks nutcases who want to kill us with nuclear weapons is not a life threatening situation.
quote:

I have cast no aspersions on your intelligence...your posts however state in your own words that you were not the most attentive student in english or history.

Please. Whenever somebody points out spelling mistakes, or says something like "you should brush up on your history," the underlying statement is "you’re an idiot." It’s a sign that the entire debate is about to degenerate into a Hanity and Colmes episode ("you’re stupid," "no, you’re stupid"). I’ll admit that I’ve succumbed to this weakness myself sometimes though I usually catch myself. For the record, English and History were my best subjects, it was math class that I was usually stoned in.
quote:

Please let me disabuse you of that notion here and now. There are neither good guys nor bad guys, just the shit that happens.

BINGO! Though I would amend that to say that we are all monsters and very few of us actually see the monster in the mirror.
quote:

ROFLMAO...You have managed to contradict yourself in the same sentence.
A man reaches into his pocket to get a photo of his grand child to show you and you shoot him in the head because you thought he was going for a gun and you do not consider that to be bad behaviour? ROFLMAO

Does the man have a past history of violence? Does he have a past history of attacking me? If not then I’m not shooting anybody in the head. In fact my first response to the situation (if he does have a past history) would be to tell him to keep his fucking hands out of his pockets and where I can see them.
quote:

If you were to peruse my posts you will find no such thing.

All I know is that every time I suggest that the United States has the right to defend itself you go into your mantra of "the U.S.A. is the bully, the U.S.A. is the bully..."
quote:

I don't need wiggle room. I use the words seem and appears to indicate that I am unsure of anothers position and am seeking clarification. I do not use those words to describe my opinions or position. When I am wrong (yes it happens rarely) I appologize.

I stand by my theory.
quote:

Once again I am unclear as to your meaning....are you doing eustachian tube research or is that you have an uninteresting job? If it is the former I wish you good luck with your endeavours...if it is the later....dat sux.

I work in a building with two art galleries and several artists studios so my job is very interesting. I am surrounded by fantastic artwork and always meeting interesting people. As for a "yawning day," if I stay up too late (responding to posts that irritate me when I should just let it go until the next day) and only get four or five hours sleep... well let’s just say that I’m not in my twenties anymore. Once I could party three days straight non-stop, now-a-days I’m cranky if I don’t get my afternoon nap.
quote:

It is rather fulfilling to know that you consider me in such a light.

Consider yourself fulfilled. Like the song says, "oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood."
quote:

If I had the choice of playing "Age of Mythology" or putting up with my shit "Age of Mythology" would be the clear winner.

Damn right! Because with "Age of Mythology," if I start to loose I can always use the cheat codes (wouldn’t it be nice if life came with cheat codes?).

Edited to add:  Ferryman77, you're going to have to wait a while longer for a response, it's time for my nap.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 3/13/2007 1:45:24 PM >

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 9:52:06 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Mark2b:
Even with your creative editing of my post to answer the questions I pose you dance just like Ginger Rogers....backwards.  Maybe you can cheat at age of mythology....but here you are on your own...there are no cheat codes.
thompson

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites - 3/13/2007 10:04:08 PM   
ferryman777


Posts: 198
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline 		time for your nap.... and don't forget your medication.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 220
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