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RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 10:39:09 AM

bearincuffs

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Joined: 12/16/2006
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Greetings blu,

To get back to your OP asking input from other posters. My query is, have you given thought to also answering this yourself? From reading your comments, which are thought provoking, I am curious to know if or how much dabbling you had done if any?

respectfully, bear.

_____________________________

property of Master Dave of the House of Gemini

An it harm none, do as thou wilt
Do what you will, so long as it harms none
An it harm none, do what thou will
That it harm none, do as thou wilt
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 121

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 10:46:42 AM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
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One thing i do agree on with possbily everyone here is you choose to believe what you will, my only cardinal sin and something which really does piss me off for want of another word is when you come across a person who for example 'finds god' and because they found god and it works for them it should work for YOU. This is wholly wrong no matter what you choose to believe. Yes i think its nice to enlighten a person as to what you may choose to believe or your theories but to to argue your points and argue the objections away until they simply are brainwashed is plain wrong, its wrong because people cannot think for themselves, people cannot make their own natural decisions based on their instincts we tend to forget we still have animistic abilities that we sometimes spookishly display like gut instinct, seeing little signs everyday that somehow remind us of things, dreaming and just knowing something is going to happen which happen more regularly with certain people than others, we all have these skills but i liken it to the wild animal and the domestic, keep a cat in a house permanantly and it loses its wild senses. It's not rocket Science. YET! lol

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 122

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 10:53:01 AM

StellaByStarlite

Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
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Easy, there, cowboy. No need to get so defensive. =)

Your worldview is just as open to questioning as anything else is, BluDemon. The whole point of good debate is backing up your claims, isn't it? If you claim the Occult is real, then why NOT offer up evidence?

Look, I don't want to offend, but you seem pretty passionate about this. But so far, I have to agree with Bella... you keep making the same points over and over again. Yes, people have dabbled in the Occult for a long time... so what? Whether or not it's actually real is the question here.

And as a matter of fact... yes, one does need to provide evidence for a claim. Why is that so unbelievable to you? And.... why are you so unwilling to maybe explore other alternative answers these phenomena? If you provided me with
resources, I'd certainly check them out.

I'm sorry, but I truely believe in questioning things I know to be suspect. As long as I don't personally attack, I have a right to challenge. We all do.

If these things you are defending so vigorously are factual... then it makes sense that you, as a practitioner, should be able to break it down into basics for us.

Or, might I suggest picking up a really great book: "the Demon Haunted World" By the late Carl Sagan. Excellent book.

Stella

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 123

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 10:59:05 AM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bearincuffs

Greetings blu,

To get back to your OP asking input from other posters. My query is, have you given thought to also answering this yourself? From reading your comments, which are thought provoking, I am curious to know if or how much dabbling you had done if any?

respectfully, bear.

Thats my point bear i do not dabble and i did explain this at the beginning, i read read and read and understand a diverse relation between energies, powers, rituals, the histories of rituals, the why's and wherefores and important if you want to explore nature as a whole. I choose not play with the Occult for Psychological reasons.

Belief is the strongest form of power known to humans, tricking the mind into pure belief is also akin to brainwashing or programming, different names exactly the same meaning. Imagine opening a doorway in your mind, crossing a threshold where your mind relates a happening to something you have done i.e. a ritual or a spell? You honestly think you have power over your mind? You don't, the mind constantly operates, it operates without your concious minds permission and opeing doors whilst dabbling in something you do not fully grasp can and HAS proven tragic.

Aswell as having an interest in paranormal histories i am also an avid Psychologist albeit amatuer, the relationship between ritual behaviour, belief systems and Psychology are almost the same, they operate on the same priciples, even in pastimes such as sport, belief is the key factor between winning and losing, sometimes people almost 'will' themselves to lose and win.

Magic is based on the mind infact this is where it eminates from nothing else! Rituals are formed for many reasons, the Pagan used to perform a harvest ritual where they would have orgies on the fields they wished to flourish, many saw this is sympathetic magic but this was actually documented by Pierre paul savin in New Jersey in 1969 when hooking up various plants to polygraphs to test their 'reactions' to sex of which proved conclusive, there is a hightened reaction!

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to bearincuffs)

Post #: 124

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 11:01:33 AM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite

Easy, there, cowboy. No need to get so defensive. =)

Your worldview is just as open to questioning as anything else is, BluDemon. The whole point of good debate is backing up your claims, isn't it? If you claim the Occult is real, then why NOT offer up evidence?

Look, I don't want to offend, but you seem pretty passionate about this. But so far, I have to agree with Bella... you keep making the same points over and over again. Yes, people have dabbled in the Occult for a long time... so what? Whether or not it's actually real is the question here.

And as a matter of fact... yes, one does need to provide evidence for a claim. Why is that so unbelievable to you? And.... why are you so unwilling to maybe explore other alternative answers these phenomena? If you provided me with
resources, I'd certainly check them out.

I'm sorry, but I truely believe in questioning things I know to be suspect. As long as I don't personally attack, I have a right to challenge. We all do.

If these things you are defending so vigorously are factual... then it makes sense that you, as a practitioner, should be able to break it down into basics for us.

Or, might I suggest picking up a really great book: "the Demon Haunted World" By the late Carl Sagan. Excellent book.

Stella

Hi Stella, apologies if you took my words offensively, it's quite simple to prove the Occult is real, ready?

Do you know of any groups of people over the years in the past of present who regularly practive the Occult? A simple yes or know.

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 125

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 11:07:35 AM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
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Also another absolute classic on the Occult even though a very old book but very informative which starts at the beginning rather than just over the last couple of hundred years is called 'history of the devil' by william woods, i think it was written in the 70's If you can get it then i strongly suggest you do, no it dosent compose of 'fairy stories' but tries to enlighten people of the histories of man and the connection we have to magic.

Contrary to what you think of me i was never advocating one thing, i simply get annoyed when i read idiotic comments like 'you realise its all made up dont you' that i find very irritating because if you dont understand it then why bother to post lol.

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 126

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 11:16:21 AM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
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*catches breath*

Ok Science V Occult is over as of now people, remember this wasnt about what is real or not we could simply debate this for years and no one would be 'proved' right or wrong thats just life im afraid.

One question i did ask that got lost in the Scientific uprising was ' Do you know of any banishing rituals or exorcism rituals that have either worked for you or worked for your friends when dealing with entities?'

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 127

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 12:20:55 PM

bearincuffs

Posts: 1904
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

Thats my point bear i do not dabble and i did explain this at the beginning, i read read and read and understand a diverse relation between energies, powers, rituals, the histories of rituals, the why's and wherefores and important if you want to explore nature as a whole. I choose not play with the Occult for Psychological reasons.

Belief is the strongest form of power known to humans, tricking the mind into pure belief is also akin to brainwashing or programming, different names exactly the same meaning. Imagine opening a doorway in your mind, crossing a threshold where your mind relates a happening to something you have done i.e. a ritual or a spell? You honestly think you have power over your mind? You don't, the mind constantly operates, it operates without your concious minds permission and opeing doors whilst dabbling in something you do not fully grasp can and HAS proven tragic.

Not a problem blu, just slightly mis-onterpretted your OP!
As to your question, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's impossible for me to have power over my own mind. I do believe we humans do not utilize a great percentage of the mind's power, and even then we aren't fully capable of harnassing the level of power(energy) we do now.
From what I see, many of these "doors" are very difficult to open by someone who's inexperienced. I am not saying this applies to everyone who dabbled but it did apply to myself when I was younger, more foolish ann ignorant of the potential consequences. All spellwork and rituals are a method to manipulate energies all around us. So someone who is inexperienced and ill prepared will run a risk of doing harm, whether it's mental, emotional or physical or combo of all three.

_____________________________

property of Master Dave of the House of Gemini

An it harm none, do as thou wilt
Do what you will, so long as it harms none
An it harm none, do what thou will
That it harm none, do as thou wilt
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 128

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 12:43:34 PM

bearincuffs

Posts: 1904
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

*catches breath*

Ok Science V Occult is over as of now people, remember this wasnt about what is real or not we could simply debate this for years and no one would be 'proved' right or wrong thats just life im afraid.

One question i did ask that got lost in the Scientific uprising was ' Do you know of any banishing rituals or exorcism rituals that have either worked for you or worked for your friends when dealing with entities?'

I never was one to get into complicated spellwork to banish unwanted spirits. Over the past 12 years, I had to opportunity to acquire knowledge from native teachings and have participated in many ceremonies. On a semi-regular basis, I will smdue my bedroom to clear out any unwanted energies that I may have inadvertantly picked up. It's a simple ritual where I burn sweetgrasss and sage in a smudge bowl and smdge the room windows and my dream catcher. Usually I use king sage but have used "woman's sage" (different variety of king sage).

Native teaching states that men are only allowed to use king sage in any ceremony. Many people who do walk the path of native teachngs will admonish me for using both types but they have to realize that I am also a two-spirited person and thus I am not violating any teachings.

I have yet to resort to using a stronger banishing ritual against unwanted entities. The rare contact I do have is from what I consider freindly spirits and I am able to sense their peacefulness. Usually they just pop in and let me know they are here and then they are gone. Yes, that's is a humorous way to put it but gets my point across. As for my Wiccan/Pagan friends I can't say since we rarely get together , due to busy lives. We have generally talked about pros and cons to using banishing spells, but for the most part we never had a need to share specific spells, being solitary practioners of the craft.

_____________________________

property of Master Dave of the House of Gemini

An it harm none, do as thou wilt
Do what you will, so long as it harms none
An it harm none, do what thou will
That it harm none, do as thou wilt
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 129

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 1:02:34 PM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
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From my observations to date the banishing system can be seen in a few ways, it can be seen in a literal way of banishing energies usually which manifest in the fabric of our dimension or it can mean mind-banishment, whereby the affected individual needs some form of mental cleansing.

I believe rituals occur in everyday life, to everyday people although many wouldnt see them as rituals, in countless nature programmes ones sees other life forms perform mating 'dances' and routines in order to mate, to become the alpha and to integrate. There is so much historic value to certain rituals and some through the years are still with us today although we adapt them to suit our day and age, touching wood, throwing salt over the shoulder, wedding rituals there is always a meaning to why we do these and its not just down to superstition.

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to bearincuffs)

Post #: 130

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 1:13:30 PM

bearincuffs

Posts: 1904
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

I know from my perspective and broad definitions I adhere to, rituals range from general and routine activities, such as tucking in one's UM at bedtime up to and including a High Priest and Priestess performing a full handfasting ceremony, or clergy performing a sanctified church exorcism.

Irregardless of the type or nature of a ritual, it does give a glimpse into how a person thinks and a generl idea if their personality. I may be out of line here but I do believe that most, if not all rituals evolved from superstitions our ancestors believed in.

_____________________________

property of Master Dave of the House of Gemini

An it harm none, do as thou wilt
Do what you will, so long as it harms none
An it harm none, do what thou will
That it harm none, do as thou wilt
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 131

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 2:28:05 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

I have worked with salt, crystals, white sage, drumming and
chanting to cleanse and purify an area. Many banishing spells
involve strong smelling plants or herbs, sage and chili peppers
being common in the Western and South-Western US.
People with a Catholic background tend to use Holy Water,
crosses, prayers and priests. I am trying to remember if it is the
Jesuits or the Dominicans who specialize in exorcisms?
The people with Vodun and Santeria beliefs use salt, candals
and graveyard dirt. This is by no means a conclusive list
of tools, techniques or methodology.

The strength of the spell is effected by the strength of belief.

Blessed Be,

Vendaval

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn
One question i did ask that got lost in the Scientific uprising was ' Do you know of any banishing rituals or exorcism rituals that have either worked for you or worked for your friends when dealing with entities?'

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 132

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 4:21:32 PM

bludemonn

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Joined: 9/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

The strength of the spell is effected by the strength of belief.

Blessed Be,

Vendaval

[

Wise words Vendaval, up to this point in my life i subscribe to that train of thought in that belief is the key in all these processes.

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 133

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 8:05:32 PM

Bella1965

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/12/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline

G'evening all:

Stella, you will never get a straight answer. He resorts to calling names and pointing fingers in an effort to divert attention from his own inability to produce verifiable evidence. It's moot anyway. The OP just doesn't get it. Which is okay too.

To the OP; I never once tried to force my opinion upon anyone else. Why are you so defensive? Are you just that insecure and unable to accept that even though you may have opened the topic, someone will disagree with you AND defend their own position? That's why it's called debate. Mon Dieu...

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 134

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 8:31:38 PM

bludemonn

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Joined: 9/10/2006
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Bella unfortunately this topic went way OFF topic, i'm not defensive i just hate it when people clumsily state things like 'did you know its all crap', hey if thats what you believe then good for you but your on the wrong post plain and simple, this also isnt a debate post nor is it intended as a contested issue, i didnt ask whether you believed in it or not and i certainly dont feel the need to back up anything i say with quotes from books! The topic is already there for us to talk about, the Occult is a practice which takes place therefore it exists!

The idea of the post AGAIN was to discuss people who we may know who are stupid enough to play with things they know nothing about, things which DO harm you whichever way you look at it. If its not something thats relevant to you then kindly find a post that is.

I'm not accusing YOU of anything but please dont start making this into a war of words, that isnt necessary and dosent serve any purpose atall.

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to Bella1965)

Post #: 135

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/14/2007 8:37:39 PM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
Status: offline

Just one more thing Bella, please re-read the OP then maybe you will understand there isnt anything to dis-agree with.

Why would i have to produce verifiable evidence of anything? If i cannot prove anything can you disprove it? NO you can't thats probably why this isn't about who is right, no one can be right or wrong with these matters, besides this whole mini debate was started because people mis-read what i was saying in the first place. Science may have alot of uses but it is NOT the authority on how we live our lives and has proven ITSELF wrong many times. Science regarding the Occult DOES exist, experiments have been going on for years and years, all i was stating was that Paranormal investigators do NOT make the distinction between what is real and not real they only observe.

Now with your permission can we get back to the original point?

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to Bella1965)

Post #: 136

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/15/2007 5:33:17 AM

bearincuffs

Posts: 1904
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I have worked with salt, crystals, white sage, drumming and
chanting to cleanse and purify an area. Many banishing spells
involve strong smelling plants or herbs, sage and chili peppers
being common in the Western and South-Western US.
People with a Catholic background tend to use Holy Water,
crosses, prayers and priests. I am trying to remember if it is the
Jesuits or the Dominicans who specialize in exorcisms?
The people with Vodun and Santeria beliefs use salt, candals
and graveyard dirt. This is by no means a conclusive list
of tools, techniques or methodology.

The strength of the spell is effected by the strength of belief.

Blessed Be,

Vendaval

*chuckle* and as a side note, I have worked with crystals myself and learned a good lesson. One should not charge a smoky quartz spear in a thundrstorm! Done that once and saw first hand how much energy it stored and took several hours before I was able to handle the bloody thing!

_____________________________

property of Master Dave of the House of Gemini

An it harm none, do as thou wilt
Do what you will, so long as it harms none
An it harm none, do what thou will
That it harm none, do as thou wilt
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 137

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/15/2007 6:24:59 AM

bludemonn

Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
Status: offline

I have heard instances of Exorcisms in the past whereby it is sometimes possibly to drive out a troublesome 'energy' or entity by sheer will alone, perhaps the Exorcist in question used his belief in himself rather than a ritual or spell to drive out the spirit?

One thing i noticed a while back is that it is said in the bible when Jesus Exorcised a Demon where Jewish Exorcists failed it was because he was Christian? The Church's doctrine on the Rituale Romanum has a number of pre-requisites which would lead one to think only the Christians can Exorcise Demons, ofcourse this is not logical atall.

I'd like to know your views on up to date rituals of Exorcism?

_____________________________

A hopeless dreamer she said, eyes of cloud and feet of lead.

(in reply to bearincuffs)

Post #: 138

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/15/2007 7:46:25 AM

Bella1965

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/12/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline

G'morning all:

OP, I can be on whatever thread I like. It's called a debate because you're on a semi public medium. I offered my opinion on the subject a while back. There can be no idiocy when dealing with the occult because the occult is a fake. It doesn't work and it only exists by the continued erroneous belief by it's deluded practitioners. Just because people dabble in a fake science, doesn't verify it's existence or validity.

If someone were to come across some "spell" in a an old book or scroll, following all the directions, NOTHING MYSTICAL WOULD HAPPEN. No demon, they would not be transported to another dimension, nothing. Now, if they're mixing components with chemical properties and something blows up in their face? That's science, not occult. The occult is a sham. Pure and simple.

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!

(in reply to bludemonn)

Post #: 139

RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult - 3/15/2007 8:07:30 AM

nephandi

Posts: 4470
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

This is an answer to the OP`s orginial post. Once i and my Master did a ritual where we went to far and i felt somthing, a pressence that scared the hell out of me. i have practiced the occult for soon 15 years and i am usualy quite careful, but yes, to many pepole just play around whit it, like if it was a funny toy.

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to Bella1965)

Post #: 140

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