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[Poll]

Did we Belong in Iraq


Yes
  29% (19)
No
  67% (43)
maybe
  3% (2)


Total Votes : 64
(last vote on : 9/19/2006 12:07:08 AM)
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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/5/2005 9:53:14 AM   
ProScatman


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		I agree with you 100%! Just check out the price of a gallon of gas? You have said it better and more tactfully than I could have! But, I think you know that if you became president, with your agenda; either Mosad, or one of the Black Opps groups would eliminate you. Hell, come to think about it--scratch Mosad, they would probably bumble the job as they have so many others. I thought it was against our Constitution to try and assinate a head of state?
quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorFive

quote:

Just wondering now that we Got Saddam,
Was it really worth going in there?


No. It was a war created under false pretenses. Iraq is reminiscent more of post WWII Yugoslavia and needs an iron fist to rule (ie: Tito or a ruthless fuck like Saddam Hussein). It stems back to the arbitrarily drawn borders from 1922. Civil war is the inevitable result of the lack of an iron fist dictator. Democracy sounds nice, but in reality there WILL be a civil war...if not now then in 5-10 years.

That said, I can only hope for the best now that Pandora's box has been opened.

quote:

Did we have any business going over there?


Yes, lots of business. Halliburton, Unocal, ad infinitum. But our young men and women have no business dying there. But the reasons given for the IMMINENT need to invade pre-emptively were all bullshit... no WMDs, No connection with Al Qaeda (in fact Hussein, being the ruthless fuck he was, killed more fundamentalist militant Islamists than anyone until our invasion of Afghanistan). Yes he was a bad man, but no he was not an imminent threat to our way of life directly or indirectly. Any who still truly believe he was are either beyond ignorant or have an agenda. He was impotent to all but his own people, empathetic as I am to teh Iraqi people I'd say Sudan was and is more of a priority (and think of the good will it could garnish).

quote:

If You where President what would You have done~


1) Kept putting pressuure on Hussein, both directly and indirectly by pressuring France and Russia primarily. Including continued strategic bombing in Iraw when necessary.
2) Support the Kurds in the North and Shiites in south to fervent rebellion from within (and pressure Turkey to allow the creation of a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq).
3) Focus US military attention on Afghanistan (which is still a powder keg waiting to explode) and capturing and destroying utterly the many Al Qaeda cells throughout the world - Philippines, malaysia, Europe, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Yemen ad infinitum (the only one of which found to be in Iraq was in Kurdish territory, oddly enough, fighting against Hussein).
4)Drill the fuck out of Alaska AND mandate a weaning off of oil via tax incentives and research $$$ for automobile companies and incentives for consumers. Reduce our dependancy on Mideast oil by ANY AND ALL MEANS.
5) put political pressure on Saudi Arabia to close down the madrassas and attempt to curb Wahabi influenced Islamicism.
6) work to build more trust between allies rather than the cocky unilateral agendas proposed by the neo-cons in the Pentagon and elsewhere.
7) make the Palestinian/israeli issue a top priuority in the world; attempt to stop the marginalizing of the moderates.
8) put the national guard on border patrol tours of duty; close off the immigration loopholes.
9) deport Richard Perle & Paul Wolfowitz to Israel.
10) Scare Dick Cheney repeatedly by popping balloons behind his back for fun.
11) Legalize pot, tax it, fund social programs/education/National Security and still have the biggest surplus in history (as opposed to the biggest deficit).


That said, it is heartening to see the move towards democratization in the region but I am not hopeful it will last. not in Iraq, not in Lebanon, not anywhere. The islamic people need a secular enlightenment before any quise fo Democracy coudl ever work. The secular Muslims have either moved or are marginalized politically. History, if it is any indicator, does not indicate the likelihood of success in the long run.... though, as I said before, I can only hope otherwise.

Fortunately I'll never be President.

Mod5
**My opinions only yada yada yada**



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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/5/2005 10:11:45 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		You are absolutely correct, according to my sources. Those sources that are actually over there. Sources that are not spoon fed by the US government.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/5/2005 1:00:06 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/iraqelect/report.htm
"More than 8.5 million Iraqis participated in the January 30 elections despite threats of violence and terrorist attacks. Voter turnout was slightly above 58 percent. Voters also cast ballots for governorate councils in each of Iraq's 18 provinces"


2% or 58% turn out, either way, isn't it better than no elections at all? Was Iraq really better off with Saddam in power? It will take years to re-build Iraq and even longer before newer generations begin to make the significant changes that are necessary, the people of Iraq have been through years of tyranny, it's not going to just change over night...it's a long process, but it had to begin somewhere and somehow.



_____________________________

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Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/5/2005 1:06:27 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
Actually only 2% of Iraqs population voted in the recent elections. They were held only because the US wanted them held. People did not know the candidates or what they were voting for. Other than what party they were representing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

You are absolutely correct, according to my sources. Those sources that are actually over there. Sources that are not spoon fed by the US government.



Is the 2% figure you originally sited correct or any of the range of 57-58% that Dom Timothy reported?

Even the low number is interesting considering that in the US, where being shot at wasn't as common, the percentage was only a little higher 60.7%.

As reported in the Washington Post:
quote:

President Bush officially won 62,028,719 votes, which was 50.8 percent of the ballots cast and 11.5 million more than he won in 2000. Sen John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) took 48.3 percent, or 59,028,550 votes. That was about 8 million more than Al Gore won in 2000. Independent Ralph Nader won 440,513 votes, less than 0.4 percent of the total. In 2000, he won more than 2.8 million votes

Entire Article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10492-2005Jan14.html

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/5/2005 1:10:43 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Is the 2% figure you originally sited correct or any of the range of 57-58% that Dom Timothy reported?

Even the low number is interesting considering that in the US, where being shot at wasn't as common, the percentage was only a little higher 60.7%.


Not a clue what is actually correct. Although anyone speaking in this thread isn't either. They are going by pure speculation just as I am.
The only difference is. I know we cannot trust our local news. I know they see the side of the story the government wants them to see over there. After all they are taking them to the news. It isn't like the journalists are wandering the country free to go where they wish.
So, I read news outside of the country. Aljazeera has many articles on it. They even had the Bin Laden speech in its entirety. Also, they just won some award for having the best news or something like that. Just a few weeks back. They went from scandalous to award winning.
Also read a semblence of the same article on a UK site about a month ago.
So, go outside of the country you see much different news than you see within it.

So, you decide what is true to you. I've already decided what is true to myself.
The mere fact they voted Saddams party back in..tells me a whole lot.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/5/2005 9:10:22 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

quote:

Is the 2% figure you originally sited correct or any of the range of 57-58% that Dom Timothy reported?

Even the low number is interesting considering that in the US, where being shot at wasn't as common, the percentage was only a little higher 60.7%.


Not a clue what is actually correct. Although anyone speaking in this thread isn't either. They are going by pure speculation just as I am.
The only difference is. I know we cannot trust our local news. I know they see the side of the story the government wants them to see over there. After all they are taking them to the news. It isn't like the journalists are wandering the country free to go where they wish.
So, I read news outside of the country. Aljazeera has many articles on it. They even had the Bin Laden speech in its entirety. Also, they just won some award for having the best news or something like that. Just a few weeks back. They went from scandalous to award winning.
Also read a semblence of the same article on a UK site about a month ago.
So, go outside of the country you see much different news than you see within it.

So, you decide what is true to you. I've already decided what is true to myself.
The mere fact they voted Saddams party back in..tells me a whole lot.



This isn't a new reaction, in my experience. I've talked to many who have "already decided what is true" despite the fact that they profess to having "not a clue what is actually correct" because they don't "trust our local news". I can't say I understand exactly how that works, but I do, unfortunately, recognize it is the norm for far too many of the US populace. It is, however, easily corrected, IMO.
For myself, it isn't terribly complicated. One can look at the varyig news sources, see what type of slant they apply, check that against the facts and determine relative credibility. Armed with a working knowledge of how egregiously a source slants the facts, one is able to make carefully weighed decisions about how much to believe from that source and have a pretty decent idea of how much a story is likely to be slanted. It isn't difficult to get a reasonable approximation of the truth, provided one is prepared to do a little homework.
I don't criticize those who are disinclined to do their own investigations as much as I criticize those who refuse to acknowledge facts that are in opposition to their personal worldview. Of course, in a perfect world, every citizen would accept the responsibility to remain informed of the events that shape policy. I wonder if schools still teach that citizenship entails responsibilities as well as rights.
I'll stop before I become even more offensive to those on the liberal side of the aisle.
Timothy

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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/6/2005 1:46:09 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

This isn't a new reaction, in my experience. I've talked to many who have "already decided what is true" despite the fact that they profess to having "not a clue what is actually correct" because they don't "trust our local news". I can't say I understand exactly how that works, but I do, unfortunately, recognize it is the norm for far too many of the US populace. It is, however, easily corrected, IMO.


Then please correct it with legitamate sources. Not abc, cbs or cnn. Correct it with places that have not been known to have slant what we hear on many occassions.
As I've already stated. Whether you believe as I do or not. Doesn't mean anything to me. I am very aware we are all different people. Some take a little more time to learn the facts where other's do not.
In general in the US people just don't seem to care what goes on.
Blind faith and all.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/6/2005 7:25:52 PM   
Sissyslave71


Posts: 226
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline 		Yes Folks...the Bush Administration LIED to go to WAR with a country that DID NOT ATTACK US.

The evidence is overwhelming and absolute.

Those of you with a memory longer than the last Law&Order episode will remember these quotes.


"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Dick Cheney August 26, 2002

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

George W. Bush September 12, 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

George W. Bush January 28, 2003

"We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more."

Colin Powell February 5, 2003

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

George Bush February 8, 2003

"So has the strategic decision been made to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction by the leadership in Baghdad? I think our judgment has to be clearly not."

Colin Powell March 8, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

George Bush March 18, 2003

"There is no doubt that the regime of Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction. As this operation continues, those weapons will be identified, found, along with the people who have produced them and who guard them."

Gen. Tommy Franks March 22, 2003

"One of our top objectives is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites."

Pentagon Spokeswoman Victoria Clark March 22, 2003

"We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

Donald Rumsfeld March 30, 2003


"Obviously the administration intends to publicize all the weapons of mass destruction U.S. forces find -- and there will be plenty."

Robert Kagan April 9, 2003


"We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. And so we will find them."

George Bush April 24, 2003


"There are people who in large measure have information that we need . . . so that we can track down the weapons of mass destruction in that country." Donald Rumsfeld April 25, 2003

"We'll find them. It'll be a matter of time to do so."

George Bush May 3, 2003

"I am confident that we will find evidence that makes it clear he had weapons of mass destruction."

Colin Powell May 4, 2003

"I never believed that we'd just tumble over weapons of mass destruction in that country.

Donald Rumsfeld May 4, 2003

"I'm not surprised if we begin to uncover the weapons program of Saddam Hussein -- because he had a weapons program."

George W. Bush May 6, 2003

"U.S. officials never expected that "we were going to open garages and find" weapons of mass destruction."

Condoleeza Rice May 12, 2003

"Given time, given the number of prisoners now that we're interrogating, I'm confident that we're going to find weapons of mass destruction."

Gen. Richard Myers,
Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff May 26, 2003

"They may have had time to destroy them, and I don't know the answer."

Donald Rumsfeld May 27, 2003

THIS ONE SAYS IT ALL.............

"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."

Paul Wolfowitz May 28, 2003

LIE....LIE...LIE...LIE

No "conspiracy theory" here.

_____________________________

~dani~

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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/6/2005 9:27:28 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		OK, I've read the quotes, now where are the lies? It takes more than your accusation to make them lies, you know. If, as you say, the evidence is overwhelming and absolute, please cite it.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/7/2005 8:03:08 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

OK, I've read the quotes, now where are the lies? It takes more than your accusation to make them lies, you know. If, as you say, the evidence is overwhelming and absolute, please cite it.


Usually I dislike taking any side other than my own.
However it you got about 8 bucks to spend you can purchase the 911 commission report. It is in book form at most every store that sells books.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/7/2005 10:32:49 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity about our government and its policies, we should remember England's Prime Minister Tony Blair's words to his own people. During a recent interview, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Great Britain was asked by one of his parliament members as to why he believes so much in America. And does he think America is on the right track? Blair's reply "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... and how many want out."

Later, the friend who sent this to me called and he asked another question I thought it appropriate to ask. It made me think, even though I was bitching about how much in taxes I have to pay.

The question is this, "If the US is so bad and has lost it's way; which country in today's world should we try to emulate?" Any suggestions?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/7/2005 2:08:18 PM >

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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/8/2005 11:26:24 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity about our government and its policies,


Of course we don't expect you to bleieve there is anything wrong with our government. Only a congressional hearing who investigated it all found issues.

I am an american and at one time I was damn proud to be one. That is why I joined the military. Anymore there is so much corruption if I didn't have family here...I would be one heading to better pastures.
Finding those pastures is tougher than it sounds. Today we still have a bit more freedoms than most do. One certainly does not want to flee to something even worse, which is a good chunk of the world.

I think most of us here know your position on politics Merc...as much as it has changed in the past few months.
Because you are so confused..and now have taken a stand does not make you any more knowledgable than anyone else here.

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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/8/2005 11:55:30 AM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I would be one heading to better pastures.


I'd have to wish you luck finding those better pastures!

This is a country that is much criticized and envied all over the world, yet everyone wants to come here, so many risk their lives daily inorder to escape their land and come to ours ... i feel so blessed to be an american! i know we all have the right to our own opinions, we have the right to be patriotic or be anti-american....funny thing is that in itself serves as reason of what a great country this is.

My patriotism doesn't change with who is in the white house at the time...i am a proud american no matter what administration is running

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Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/8/2005 12:28:01 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I think most of us here know your position on politics Merc...as much as it has changed in the past few months.
Because you are so confused..and now have taken a stand does not make you any more knowledgable than anyone else here.


Gloria,
Your presumption of knowing my position on politics just shows how ignorant you are about me. In your mind, and consideration of disjointed or out of context snippets may seem as changing I don't have any doubt though that they remain consistent, unlike your self professed changing alliance.

Didn't see anything in my post saying that nothing is wrong with our government. You'd do better not to read into things that aren't there.

quote:

if I didn't have family here...I would be one heading to better pastures.


WHERE? And where would you go that wouldn't allow access back to your family. Still waiting for the bus from Hollywood with the others who made this boast? The idea that we can go and come as we please for as long as we please is America's asset. Interestingly enough when you travel to other countries some are requiring that you show your return ticket before letting you in.

Since you didn't answer the question regarding the better place perhaps you'll do better with better time. When wasn't the corruption in place? When was that utopian America that you yearn to return? It's easiest to identify the periods by the presidents. The early 60's - No, Vietnam started and the right wing hawks killed Kennedy to continue it. Johnson - wouldn't think so, he was a pawn for the Military Industrial Complex. Nixon - NO defense for paranoid behavior and oversaw the initial total distrust of the US government. Carter - should have stuck to peanuts; his tenure resulted in the total impotence of the US, and the attitude of general doubt from the citizens, cumulating in the Iran hostage crisis, not to mention double digit inflation, doing much better now as a contractor. Reagan, well Iran /Contra is his corruption, but he pragmatism in dealing with problems best matches my beliefs; pity he was senile during his second term. Bush I - Loser! No vision - no plan - no re-election. Clinton - What a waste! How he could allow his penis to prevent him from greatness is beyond me. He should and could have accomplished so much, but his legacy will always be Monica Lewinsky. Bush II, proving that we as a people have frightened every viable candidate from the process. More worried about what we are watching on TV than what to do about minor items such as the price of gas, education, or health care.

More knowledgeable? Again, where is that? My frustrations are there like everyone else. In some areas maybe much more than you. But the rational part of me is that I think through the problem. What alternatives are there? Is the US the best of the worst, akin to Bush v. Kerry? Maybe so, but even with that attitude it's still the best.I can be proud of that.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/8/2005 12:35:52 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Your presumption of knowing my position on politics just shows how ignorant you are about me. In your mind, and consideration of disjointed or out of context snippets may seem as changing I don't have any doubt though that they remain consistent, unlike your self professed changing alliance.


Correct, I am ignorant I've only actually read your posts from before the election to current. Anyone who wants to search can find it all here. Unless of course it has been edited.

By the way I did answer your question. I said I did not know where I would go that was not worse than here. Canada is much better although they are not like the US they do not just open the borders to the whole world.
A friend of mine who is a multi millionairre tried moving there. He was turned down because he had no valid source of income.
So, yes I am very well aware of the issues involved.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/8/2005 12:49:28 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Anyone who wants to search can find it all here. Unless of course it has been edited.


Gloria,
I don't think everyone is as big a fan of me like you to do that research. But if anyone needs clarification I'll be happy to reply direct.

As a point of reference if Kerry had won - I still would be proud of living in the US. I was proud under Nixon, Carter, Clinton, politics doesn't apply to that in my opinion. I proud of my ancestry too, but wouldn't defend the Roman atrocities or even Mussolini. You did say you were once proud. When was the period you lived in as an adult when the US was better? You know, when you could be proud of it?

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/8/2005 12:59:04 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I don't think everyone is as big a fan of me like you to do that research. But if anyone needs clarification I'll be happy to reply direct.


Who said I was a fan? However I can read. We've been through this in the ask a switch forum lately. We've been though it too much.

To me the issues that plague this nation are not presidential ones. They are mere pawns.

There are a great many other problems. Frankly in all reality I can care less about any sort of politics.

I was raised in this country. It was once great. Now if you leave it to go almost anywhere there are good chances you may never come back. People around the world do not like American's as a whole. Not because of you and me either.
So, it is as you said. Where would you go to be safe? You didn't even mention anything about safety.
A friend of mine in the scene was murdered in the UK last year. I know some things all too well.
There was a time I could make a killing in the stock market. Now all one does is lose money. I could go on and on. This used to be a great country. Now it seems we are hated by the masses.
Why is that?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/8/2005 10:47:10 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline 		This Quote by Ruffnecksbabygirl says more then enough~


quote:

2% or 58% turn out, either way, isn't it better than no elections at all? Was Iraq really better off with Saddam in power? It will take years to re-build Iraq and even longer before newer generations begin to make the significant changes that are necessary, the people of Iraq have been through years of tyranny, it's not going to just change over night...it's a long process, but it had to begin somewhere and somehow.



Thank You Ruffnecksbabygirl~

Sincerely ant

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/9/2005 4:00:41 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Oh God... I sooooo want to speak, but I won't.... God help us all.
I'm feeling a little too opinonated today, so I'll shut up on this thread, lol. M

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/9/2005 9:49:57 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... and how many want out."

I think that is a far too simple measure; about all it measures is the strength of the economy and includes a measure of political stability.

Funny thing is everyone thinks their "home" is the best. Plenty of folks who have emigrated to the US would be thrilled to return home; for example, in recent years Ireland has seen a reverse migration by folks who had left because now their economy has experienced growth making it a European version of the Asian tiger economies. Even many Haitians living in the US would return home if things were stable enough.

So whenever I hear arguments about how great the US is, it really just strikes me as just a self-centered view of the world because those arguments tend to imply we're the best. We may be able force or pay other countries to go along with what we want, but if we lack the sense not to use that power like a bully then I'd call that a serious shortage of true greatness.

quote:

The question is this, "If the US is so bad and has lost it's way; which country in today's world should we try to emulate?" Any suggestions?

I'll name a few:

Canada
Sweden
Denmark
Switzerland
The Netherlands
Spain
Japan
Singapore
Ireland (NOT the north)
Australia
United Arab Emirates
Bahrain
Costa Rica
Argentina (though have some questions about their economy)

Of course folks will disagree because they rank lower on measures of military and economic might as if that is all that matters, but there are social, environmental, and other factors in those countries that are worthwhile. Those are just a few off the top of my head and I'm sure I'm missing others, but I wouldn't point fingers at what are perceived flaws in any one of those places without taking a critical look at the US.

Oh, and I considered adding France to that list; at first I hesitated because they have a habit of supporting some nasty third world leaders, but then the US is no better in that regard. So I finally decided to leave them off the list because I thought France was boring when I went there.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 4/9/2005 10:21:35 AM >

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