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[Poll]

Did we Belong in Iraq


Yes
  29% (19)
No
  67% (43)
maybe
  3% (2)


Total Votes : 64


(last vote on : 9/19/2006 12:07:08 AM)
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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/9/2005 10:40:57 AM   
onceburned


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quote:

Canada is much better although they are not like the US they do not just open the borders to the whole world.


Actually, I think Canada is more liberal in its immigration policies than the U.S., at least when it comes to refugees. I remember after 9/11 that gaining legal residence in Canada and crossing the border into the U.S. was considered a viable route for terrorists.

The U.S. certainly doesn't have open borders. I was married to a person born overseas, and the logistics and legal requirements in bringing her brothers or sisters over was daunting.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/9/2005 11:37:51 AM   
sub4hire


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quote:

The U.S. certainly doesn't have open borders. I was married to a person born overseas, and the logistics and legal requirements in bringing her brothers or sisters over was daunting.


No, but living remotely close to the border. I know just how easy it is to walk right through no matter what nationality you are. I've had them all with me at different times.
Only one time ever ws I asked for verification. That was coming through in Calexico.
Tijuana...nah..its never happened. So, no idea on what the percentage is that they ask for ID. Whatever it is, it sure isn't enough.
At 2 grand a pop I could throw 3 in my trunk and make it a profitable day south of the border.

(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 4/9/2005 2:01:42 PM   
smilezz


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We belong there? We don't belong there? everyone will have their own opinions on this. If you join the Military, at some point it is possible you will end up at war. You do your job and serve your Country........how you feel about it is your own personal opinion, but you do your job.

I know many Military Men who are overseas serving right now..would they rather be home with their families? yes! but all of them say they are doing what they have been trained to do with the profession they have chosen for their lives.

While everyone has opinions of: 'Do we belong there' my focus is: Do what you have to do and come home safe.

Ohh yeah! and would i want to be president? Hell No! they don't pay that well.

Happy Saturday y'all!!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

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(in reply to knees2you)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 10:26:42 AM   
knees2you


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Bush Gave his Address last night
to the United States about Iraqi..

Can't believe We've lost over 1,700 troops over there.

The Military is not making a good case for Highschool kids or
College Graduates.

If they had the draft, and I was young enought to be told to go,
I would, but either way if I didn't go or I did, I would be persecuted.

To me it is never winning situation~
quote:


"Hell from beneath is Excited about You, to meet You at Your coming."



Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to knees2you)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 11:55:41 AM   
ProScatman


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Actually, I think you are closer to the truth than a lot of folks! This Iraq "thing" is really feeling like Vietnam to me. When I was 17 years old and 8 months, I joined the Marines , and ended up in Vietnam. Once there, I was supprised to find out there were people who didn't want us there. In boot camp, we were psychologically trained to hate Comunists enough to kill them. I was one who believed our government was always right! And, that they never were dishonest with the citizens of our country. After being in country for around 5 or 6 months newspapers began to catch up with me with my mail. I was astonished to read things I knew for a fact were not true, like our excursions in to Cambodia and Laos; which the news paper said we were not doing! We all got a big laugh out of those news papers when they came, but I wouldn't come to understand the seriousness of what was told for many years. Let me just say I never believed another politition again!

I support our troops over in Iraq, because I know what many of them are thinking right now. I also knw they will do their job no matter what their personal feelings are. If you want, visit one of the many V.A. Hospitals where our once whole young men and women are being fitted for artificial legs and arms!

How many Congressmen and Senator's kids are over in Iraq in a combat unit?

_____________________________

The objection to Puritans is not that they try to make us think as they do, but that they try to make us do as they think.

Have a good day, Mike

(in reply to knees2you)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 12:17:25 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

To me it is never winning situation~


Ant,

A question for you and the others calling for total withdraw from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the middle east in general.

What would Zarqawi, bin Laden and the other Islamic terrorists be doing? Would they all go back to sheep herding, or opening convenience stores, or driving taxis in NYC? Would the war be "over" as it was on September 10, 2001? The terrorists fighting against us in Iraq are NOT all Iraqis. It can be debated that very few are Iraqi. They come from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, and Libya. It is safer for us that their efforts are concentrated there. As quoted by the President, bin Laden's opinion of Iraq is as follows; "This third world war is raging in Iraq. The whole world is watching this war, it will end in victory and glory or misery and humiliation." I'd prefer the war be fought there.

The people who we are at war with start their day "praying" for the death of the "infidels". Who is an "infidel"? Everyone not of Islamic Faith. They educate their children's with a core curriculum of hatred, where killing (as they did last week) of a 80 year old cleric is "honorable". The defenders of Saddam and his regime are defending a regime where people were thrown alive into an industrial paper shredder. Perhaps they didn't remember their "safe-word", because after all - that protects a person from all real harm.

I do NOT support President Bush's "War on Terror". I don't think he has done enough. Of course my opinion is skewered by being close enough to what happened on September 11th to have smelled the burning flesh of my friends and co-workers. I hope it won't take a similar personal experience for those who believe a French style capitulation would achieve "peace".

People were looking for an "exit" strategy" last night. Can someone enlighten me what war in the history of mankind had an "exit strategy"? WWII's exit strategy - TOTAL SURRENDER of the Axis countries. That is the proper exit strategy for Iraq.

Trust is important to me. What trust would we have from the Iraqi people if we published that on December 1st we're gone whether you are ready to defend yourself or not? These people risked their lives to vote for this opportunity for self government. Our troops need to trust that we will be there until the mission is complete. We owe it to the first US soldier who died to stay the course until the mission is done.

(in reply to knees2you)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 1:04:41 PM   
onceburned


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Merc, I know you aren't addressing this to me since I do not call for total withdraw from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the middle east in general. But I do think that Bush's war is misguided and want comment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
It can be debated that very few are Iraqi. They come from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Yemen, and Libya. It is safer for us that their efforts are concentrated there. As quoted by the President, bin Laden's opinion of Iraq is as follows; "This third world war is raging in Iraq. The whole world is watching this war, it will end in victory and glory or misery and humiliation." I'd prefer the war be fought there.


This is one of the few sensible arguments that the Bush administration has made. But it is a cold blooded one. Basically the U.S. invades a country they don't care about and create civil chaos there. We then station our troops and wait for the terrorists to show up to attack them. Not a terribly moral strategy but I understand the appeal. "Let's issue a general invitation to terrorists - and fight them in someone else's neighborhood.

But in addition to the amorality (and perhaps immorality depending upon one's convictions) there is also the troubling fact that the war in Iraq is serving as a wonderful training school for terrorists. What a great place to get experience in tactics and strategy! The quality of attacks against coalition and Iraqi troops has gone up quite a bit over the past two years. And there is a waiting list of folks who want to be suicide bombers.

quote:

I hope it won't take a similar personal experience for those who believe a French style capitulation would achieve "peace".


I agree that the war on terrorism is necessary. But I do wonder what you are referring to when you say "French style capitulation". Are you referring to something from history?

quote:

Can someone enlighten me what war in the history of mankind had an "exit strategy"? WWII's exit strategy - TOTAL SURRENDER of the Axis countries. That is the proper exit strategy for Iraq.


No, we have created a monster in Iraq where it didn't exist before. Terrorism didn't have a foothold under Saddam (and his excesses were under control due to sanctions), but terrorists sure as heck roam the country now. It is in our self interest to stablize Iraq. Some would say its our moral duty too, but lets just stay with a narrow focus on American self-interest. Pulling out of Iraq so that terrorist elements could gain a foothold in how the country is run would be disasterous. It would be a new Afghanistan... but with more resources and closer to American interests.

What bothers me is that the same clowns who got the U.S. into this mess are still running foreign policy. And after two years of their bumbling, its a little disheartening.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 1:23:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Come on Merc, Ant never "called for" any such thing. What's the use of arguing against strawmen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Ant,

A question for you and the others calling for total withdraw from Iraq, Afghanistan, and the middle east in general.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 1:57:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

What bothers me is that the same clowns who got the U.S. into this mess are still running foreign policy. And after two years of their bumbling, its a little disheartening.


chis,
I actually agree with this, but for the reasons that you may not agree. I think the policy makers are too worried about opinions regarding their actions instead of taking the necessary action. For instance, they allow the distraction of prisoner abuse to become an issue. Yet the reality is that not one prisoner has died or appeared on Arab TV being beheaded. You can not apply civilized behavior on a people who consider civilization, taken in the form of woman's rights, democratic elections, the freedom of religion; diametrically opposed to their goals. Remember when the Iraqi elections were held? The terrorist's position was that democracy was "un-Islamic".

I've read the Koran, along with interpretations on both sides of the debate on whether it's a religion of intolerance. Even it's defenders admit that the literal interpretation is that all non-believers should be converted or killed. How can a "civilized" battle be fought when the utopian position of the adversary is your destruction? What compromise is possible? Unlike communism where a person can compare the philosophies and decide which is "better"; Islam is a "religion" based upon absolutes. A compromising, integrating society, concerned with political correctness has a hard time dealing with absolutes. We expect compromise when the reality is that within the core beliefs of the Koran, there can not be any.

We may have created a "monster in Iraq" but we created it by focusing all the components of the "monster" into one area. We didn't create it out of the ether. It existed prior to our invasion. Were the people we saw dancing in the streets on 9/11 our "friends" who became enemies after we invaded Iraq? I'll even take your argument and agree that terrorists are "roaming the country" I'm glad that country is Iraq. At first, when we were resolute, there were positive results. Look at Libya. If our invasion only resulted in Gaddafi's abandonment of Libya's weapons program it accomplished something. He did so out of fear for his regime, wondering if he were "next". And that example is what I site as the only solution to this problem. I don't think it's possible now, but the solution was to make the terrorist fear us. It doesn't seem that Bush has the fortitude to accomplish that now. To me, that is Bush's failure.

(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 3:50:08 PM   
knees2you


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Where are the Chemical Weapons?

Alot of Our Men and Woman over there want to know that answer to the Question.

"Where are the Chemical Weapons?"

Here is something to look up on the internet~

It is called the "Imperial Brain Trust"

Take a look at What war really is about~

Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 3:56:15 PM   
sub4hire


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quote:

Where are the Chemical Weapons?

Alot of Our Men and Woman over there want to know that answer to the Question.

"Where are the Chemical Weapons?"

Here is something to look up on the internet~

It is called the "Imperial Brain Trust"


The day Michael Jackson was acquitted for molestation charges. There was a report that was finally made public about Bush and Blair planning the entire war before 911 even happened.

Can't think of the name at the moment but I know a lot of bush hater's whom I can e-mail who will give me more details than any of you want to read.

Where were the chemical weapons you ask Knee's? There were none. I can vouch and say there were some in the first Gulf War, because I was there. The chemical sirens were going off every 15 minutes. We didn't have working gas masks.
I can also say..Thanks to our government if there were chemical weapons this time lots more of our soldiers would be dead. Because the government ordered 150,000 inferior masks...knowingly this time. Yes, I know a man who owns the company who makes the rubber for the masks. He wanted to recall them all to make them properly and the government said no biggy. Inferior or not we want them now...and shipped them off to the Persian Gulf.

What a great president dontcha think?

(in reply to knees2you)
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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 5:02:45 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Where are the Chemical Weapons?


This was is response to what part of my post? Or did you mean to have begun with; "well okay, but...where are the chemical weapons?"

Since you didn't provide it here's the link containing a synopsis: http://www.eco.utexas.edu/facstaff/Cleaver/357Lsum_s2_ShoupMinter.html

I'm sure for some, that any document concerning a "new world order" is the smoking gun concerning Iraq, even this one written in 1977. As with the absolute reference to Nostradamus predicting the fall of the Twin Towers; hindsight interpretation of vague allegations is always 20/20. I guess since Kerry was also a member of Yale's "skull & crossbones" that part of the "conspiracy" is no longer a proper reference.

I must have missed the photo op of President Bush picking up and choosing the chemical weapons masks. I'm sure it was a unilateral decision he made while taking his morning crap. What do you think Gloria, did his advisers line them all up for him to try during the week and when he couldn't smell his own shit he picked that one? No result in any search engine provided any reference to current problems with the masks distributed to the troops. Most likely another conspiracy or cover up that the right wing media is ignoring. There was an article from 2002: http://www.endthewar.org/features/chemicaldefense.htm
Maybe your friend should call 60 Minutes.

Let's see, Bush was an idiot to ignore his security advisers regarding the warning of an attack on the US and specifically via hijacked airliners; but he was supposed to ignore his intelligence and security advisers concerning Iraq's WMD's?

Damn, if only Kerry were elected. Him and Osama would be holding hands on the White House lawn, the US would have no enemies, oil would be at $20 a barrel, all the Hollywood stars wouldn't have moved to Canada (WAIT - None of them left - DAMN!), no child would go to sleep hungry, and I'd bet hair would be growing on my bald head.

What about the "grassy knoll"?

(in reply to knees2you)
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RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 5:13:43 PM   
sub4hire


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quote:

I must have missed the photo op of President Bush picking up and choosing the chemical weapons masks. I'm sure it was a unilateral decision he made while taking his morning crap. What do you think Gloria, did his advisers line them all up for him to try during the week and when he couldn't smell his own shit he picked that one? No result in any search engine provided any reference to current problems with the masks distributed to the troops. Most likely another conspiracy or cover up that the right wing media is ignoring. There was an article from 2002:


Have you read your own little article? Guess not.
If you are a supervisor at work and one of your employee's messes up, who takes the blame?
Is it them, or you?
So, yes by not effectively monitoring his employee's he takes the blame. Become an effective leader and these things would not happen.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 5:26:29 PM   
sub4hire


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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/index.cfm?Page=Article&ID=228

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/29/2005 5:29:22 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I guess you've never heard of the Downing Street memo. The Bush Administration told the intelligence community what to say--not vice versa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Let's see, Bush was an idiot to ignore his security advisers regarding the warning of an attack on the US and specifically via hijacked airliners; but he was supposed to ignore his intelligence and security advisers concerning Iraq's WMD's?


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/30/2005 9:31:51 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Have you read your own little article? Guess not.


Another assumption. Consistency IS your strong point. Good for you!

But with that argument he personally gets credit for these. That would make you a bigger Bush supporter than me. I personally do not think he deserves this recognition, but as you point out, "by not effectively monitoring his employee's he takes the blame." This would be the other side of the sword. Using that definition he personally is "credited". I sure some of these would be defined as negative accomplishment - there are a few that I wish didn't happen, but since he is in charge - good or bad, everything here is his "fault":

Defense & Foreign Policy

1. Executed two wars in the aftermath of 9/11/01: Afghanistan and Iraq. 50 million people who had lived under tyrannical regimes now live in freedom.
2. Saddam Hussein is now in prison. His two murderous sons are dead. All but a handful of the regime's senior members were killed or captured.
3. Leader by leader and member by member, al Maida is being hunted down in dozens of countries around the world. Of the senior al Qaeda leaders, operational managers, and key facilitators the U.S. Government has been tracking, nearly two-thirds have been taken into custody or killed. The detentions or deaths of senior al Qaeda leaders, including Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, the mastermind of 9/11, and Muhammad Atef, Osama bin Laden's second-in-command until his death in late 2001, have been important in the War on Terror.
4. Disarmed Libya of its chemical, nuclear and biological WMD's without bribes or bloodshed.
5. Continues to execute the War On Terror, getting worldwide cooperation to track funds/terrorists. Has cut off much of the terrorists' funding, and captured or killed many key leaders of the al Qaeda network.
6. Initiated a comprehensive review of our military, which was completed just prior to 9/11/01, and which accurately reported that ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE capabilities were critical in the 21st Century.
7. Killed the old US/Soviet Union ABM Treaty that was preventing the U.S. from deploying our ABM defenses.
8. Has been one of the strongest, if not THE strongest friend Israel has ever hand in the U.S. presidency.
9. Part of the coalition for an Israeli/Palestinian "Road-map to Peace," along with Great Britain, Russia and the EU.
10. Pushed through THREE raises for our military. Increased military pay by more than $1 billion a year.
11. Signed the LARGEST nuclear arms reduction in world history with Russia.
12. Started withdrawing our troops from Bosnia, and has announced withdrawal of our troops from Germany and the Korean DMZ.
13. Prohibited putting U.S. troops under U.N. command.
14. Paid back UN dues only in return for reforms and reduction of U.S. share of the costs.
15. Earmarked at least 20 percent of the Defense procurement budget for next-generation weaponry.
16. Increased defense research and development spending by at least $20 billion from fiscal 2002 to 2006.
17. Ordered a comprehensive review of military weapons and strategy.
18. Ordered a review of overseas deployments.
19. Ordered renovation of military housing. The military has already upgraded about 10 percent of its inventory and expects to modernize 76,000 additional homes this year.
20. Is working to tighten restrictions on military-technology exports.
21. Brought back our EP-3 intel plane and crew from China without any bribes or bloodshed.

Environment & Energy

1. Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty.
2. Submitted a comprehensive Energy Plan (awaits Congressional action). The plan works to develop cleaner technology, produce more natural gas here at home, make America less dependent on foreign sources of energy, improve national grid, etc.
3. Established a $10 million grant program to promote private conservation initiatives.
4. Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops.
5. Changed parts of the Forestry Management Act to allow necessary cleanup of the national forests in order to reduce fire danger.
6. Part of national forests cleanup: Restricted judicial challenges (based on the Endangered Species Act and other challenges), and removed the need for an Environmental Impact Statement before removing fuels/logging to reduce fire danger.
7. Killed Clinton's CO2 rules that were choking off all of the electricity surplus to California.
8. Provided matching grants for state programs that help private landowners protect rare species.

Education & Employment Training

1. Signed the No Child Left Behind Act, delivering the most dramatic education reforms in a generation (challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations). The very liberal California Teachers union is currently running radio ads against the accountability provisions of this Act.
2. Announced "Jobs for the 21st Century," a comprehensive plan to better prepare workers for jobs in the new millennium by strengthening post-secondary education and job training, and by improving high school education.
3. Is working to provide vouchers to low-income students in persistently failing schools to help with costs of attending private schools. (Blocked in the Senate.)
4. Requires annual reading and math tests in grades three through eight.
5. Requires states to participate in the National Assessment of Education Progress, or an equivalent program, to establish a national benchmark for academic performance.
6. Requires school-by-school accountability report cards.
7. Established a $2.4 billion fund to help states implement teacher accountability systems.
8. Increased funding for the Troops-to-Teachers program, which recruits former military personnel to become teachers.

Government Reform

1. Improved government efficiency by putting hundreds of thousands of jobs put up for bid. This weakens public-sector unions and cuts undeserved pay raises.
2. Initiated review of all federal agencies with the goal of eliminating federal jobs (completed September 2003) in an effort to reduce the size of the federal government while increasing private sector jobs.
3. Led the most extensive reorganization the Federal bureaucracy in over 50 years: After 9/11, condensed 20+ overlapping agencies and their intelligence sectors into one agency, the Department of Homeland Security.*
4. Ordered each agency to draft a five-year plan to restructure itself, with fewer managers.
5. Converted federal service contracts to performance-based contracts wherever possible so that the contractor has measurable performance goals.

Globalization & Internationalism

1. Challenged the United Nations to live up to their responsibilities and not become another League of Nations (in other words, showed the UN to be completely irrelevant).
2. Killed U.S. involvement in the International Criminal Court.
3. Told the United Nations we weren't interested in their plans for gun control (i.e., the International Ban on Small Arms Trafficking Treaty).*
4. The only President since the founding of the UN to essentially tell that organization it is irrelevant. He said: "The conduct of the Iraqi regime is a threat to the authority of the United Nations, and a threat to peace. Iraq has answered a decade of UN demands with a decade of defiance. All the world now faces a test, and the United Nations a difficult and defining moment. Are Security Council resolutions to be honored and enforced, or cast aside without consequence? Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding, or will it be irrelevant?" We all know the outcome and the answer.
5. Told the Congress and the world, "America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our country."

There are more in other categories, but this should provide enough of a reference.

The tactic of tangents leaves these questions still unanswered."What would Zarqawi, bin Laden and the other Islamic terrorists be doing? Would they all go back to sheep herding, or opening convenience stores, or driving taxis in NYC? Would the war be "over" as it was on September 10, 2001? Were the people we saw dancing in the streets on 9/11 our "friends" who became enemies after we invaded Iraq?"

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/30/2005 1:21:13 PM   
sub4hire


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For obvious reasons I assumed you had not read your own article. Anybody who reads this thread knows why.

Too bad you don't live by any form of consistency. Although that is neither here nor there.

Guess you never heard of the Downing Street Memo as LAM asked you or did you just pass by that?

Yes, you can call it a fault of mine or whatever you'd like to call it. However, those who are responsible whether good or bad I do hold them as responsible parties. I can't imagine pushing it off to some innocent and condemning them.

You are aware terrorists were not in Iraq until we entered Iraq or are you not aware of that?
I really have not seen many people debating about the war in Afghanistan, now have I? Which is where Bin Laden is based if I'm correct?
Or do you have some inside information from Laden himself that he is holding out in Iraq?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/30/2005 3:51:34 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

For obvious reasons I assumed you had not read your own article. Anybody who reads this thread knows why.

Too bad you don't live by any form of consistency. Although that is neither here nor there.

Guess you never heard of the Downing Street Memo as LAM asked you or did you just pass by that?


Gloria, to live in your world must be wonderful, all absolutes, vague references, and innuendo. Congrats again on giving Bush all the credit as I referenced. I wouldn't have thought he personally was responsible for so much. Consistently you digress and don't respond to the question with references, or even rhetoric.

"Terrorists were not in Iraq." I think anyone sent through a commercial paper shredder by Saddam would disagree. I think the Iraq soccer team who were tortured because of their great crime - losing a game would disagree. Article: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/22/1050777259760.html?oneclick=true

Unless all the people sighted in this sampling article were lifestyle folk and edge players scening while drinking, or got involved with evil doms who refused to use a safe word - I think these would be considered "terrorists". http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-13-saddam-secrets-usat_x.htm

But I guess since there was no act of terror against the Saddam regime you are, in principle correct. There were no terrorist in Iraq. But why would there be? What is the point of your point?

I live by my consistency ALL the time. Glad you disagree. I'll be careful to not imply a raised eyebrow, because you'll interpret it - NOT in person of course, because to be consistent you couldn't do that.

My answer to the "Downing Street Memo" is - So What? It revolved around plans and discussions between two leaders. England and the US are two nations separated by a common language. There is a difference in meaning - a perspective. But addressing directly the issue. (you should try this) Do you think we have plans for a war in Korea? China? Iran? Do you think there are plans for the defense of Taiwan? Israel? NATO has "war plans" for many different eventualities. BTW - here's the smoking gun memo: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/17/MEMO.TMP The reality is that there are really 7 memos: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

Slates' Fred Kaplan columnist writes an encompassing article:
quote:

The "killer quote" in the original Sunday Times story is this passage from the July 23 ministers' meeting:

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.


However Kaplan notes further; "the memo doesn't make as strong a case against Bush as some have claimed. Read in conjunction with the six other British documents, the case weakens further. The memos do not show, for instance, that Bush simply invented the notion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or that Saddam posed a threat to the region. In fact, the memos reveal quite clearly that the top leaders in the U.S. and British governments genuinely believed their claims.

Entire Article: http://www.slate.com/id/2120886/

I believe when the facts change it’s good to change your opinion. To bad you would never consider your self wrong or open to conflicting opinions; and that's here - there - everywhere.

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/30/2005 4:03:55 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Merc, if you're so well informed about the Downing Street memo and so freely grant its authenticity, how can you possibly make the statement that Bush was merely listening to his intelligence advisors? The very document you're talking about states that the Bush administration was FIXING intelligence around its own preconceived policy. It's one or the other--it can't be both.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Did we Belong in Iraq - 6/30/2005 4:06:24 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
I never claim to be right 100% of the time. You do that. Then you say how people are jokes and what not.
Bin Laden was not in Iraq. Or was he? No evidence supports the fact he was.
You quote terrorists as being only Saddam. Nobody ever said he did not exterminate his own people. We are talking Bin Laden here. That is the reason we were given why we are in Iraq. After all Saddam was harboring him or did you not hear that part of the story?
I read the current news as it hits the newsstands.
Like the gas mask scandal. Correct there is no current news articles because they have already been written. The investigations have been done. They were faulty. Bush knew that whether you want to admit it or not.

Why should I waste my time running all over the internet looking up old articles when I have someone to do it for me?

If you’d like to debate in person fine. Let’s make a time and a place. You slander me quite a bit with no evidence ever. So, we need to have PLENTY of witnesses.

At least I have evidence against you. I have every post you’ve ever posted here. Contradictions in most.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 60
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