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Rape vengeance. - 3/31/2005 5:50:53 PM   
Alexander


Posts: 159
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline 		This may not be specifically bdsm related but I wonder if anyone else in this community has thought about this.

Tonight I found out yet another one of my girl friends/acquaintances was raped, by a man she knew. She has practiced bdsm as a dominant. She was drunk, woke up being raped. Why have I heard this story so often?

In the world according to Garp there is a group of women who have cut out their own tongues as their symbolic connection with a young girl who was raped and brutalized. They end up violently (or one of them does) killing the protagonist, Garp. In it’s way they are taking vengeance on men in general for sexual brutality.

When I think of this girl friend that I don’t know that well, I think immediately of vengeance. Of seeing how this guy likes being left duct taped for a few days, of seeing how he likes being blindfolded and held for awhile and even letting someone who knows what they are doing give him a taste of his own medicine.

Recently I read in the creative writing section a piece on revenge, aAnd the response to it was very positive. Is it possible there is something within wiitwd that makes this kind of revenge seem fitting if not… deserved?

Alex.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Rape vengeance. - 3/31/2005 6:25:06 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Recently I read in the creative writing section a piece on revenge, aAnd the response to it was very positive. Is it possible there is something within wiitwd that makes this kind of revenge seem fitting if not… deserved?


I don't know if it is within us and our mentality. However I have always believed in an eye for an eye.
Maybe that's why a lot of the people here say I can stand on my own two feet, and need nobody to come running to my aid.
Even if some thought I was soooo submissive when we first chatted...hehe.

(in reply to Alexander)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Rape vengeance. - 3/31/2005 11:54:44 PM   
srahfox


Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		This is a hard subject fo me. Not because of the memories but because of my torn views on it. Normally, if someone else I care about says they were raped, I get this feeling of rage that makes me want to send that person to a hell that gives him what he gave. However, it hurts me when a friend says something like, 'good thing your father never did come around because we would have killed him.' I understand that puts me in a slightly different place than someone who was raped by a non family member. However it does sometimes make things a little confusing in my head. I'd forgiven him but I didn't invite him to the wedding because I was seriously afraid of what a few of my friends may have done. But then who knows what I myself would have done in the reverse position, if it were a friend of mine.

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 2:49:26 AM   
temptation


Posts: 111
Joined: 2/20/2004
From: heaven
Status: offline
quote:

When I think of this girl friend that I don’t know that well, I think immediately of vengeance. Of seeing how this guy likes being left duct taped for a few days, of seeing how he likes being blindfolded and held for awhile and even letting someone who knows what they are doing give him a taste of his own medicine.

Recently I read in the creative writing section a piece on revenge, aAnd the response to it was very positive. Is it possible there is something within wiitwd that makes this kind of revenge seem fitting if not… deserved?

Alex.



While all of this vengence/revenge stuff sounds so great on paper, in action its dangerous and stupid.

Rape is rape. There is no such thing as consensual rape.

Consider how stupid "revenge" really is? What if you blindfold him, and ducttape him for a few days? What if he chokes to death, or burns in a fire? I'm pretty sure the fault is all yours. What if he files for assault? Or abduction/kidnapping?

If you're the victim of rape, call the police.

(in reply to Alexander)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 3:29:36 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

When I think of this girl friend that I don’t know that well, I think immediately of vengeance.


I understand how you feel. I've been a victim a few times. But vengence only turns the victim into the criminal. I had a friend once that was raped. You can ask anyone that has gone through it, one of the first emotions they feel is hatred towards the rapist. They wish someone would run over the SOB at the very least. My friend went through that, she said those things... and her dad took it seriously. He hunted down the rapist and killed him. I honestly can't blame him. Unfortunately the jury did and he was sentenced to 20 years in prison. I'm sure it was worth it to him, but that wasn't all of it. She was also arrested and tried for conspiracy to commit murder because of the things she had said in anger, she got 15 years in prison for being the victim. Her dad even told police that she had nothing to do with, but they made an example of her.

I believe in an eye for an eye as well, but I have to believe that what God or "karma" or what ever you chose to believe in can do far worse to that asshole then I can begin to imagine.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Alexander)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 4:15:14 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Revenge is somthing we all can yearn for, but it is not right. Contreary to the eye for an eye ideology, two wrongs do not make one right. Take America an its death sentences for exampel. Do it help anyone to brutaly kill somone from having killed somone else? all you end up whit are more killing. Revenge have started so many wars, destroyed so many lives, it is never for the good, never.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 5:29:08 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		While working out energies and past experiences can be healthy...most times it's not. Most times people don't know how to handle it well and it ends up a big disaster.

But for the few who do...it can work. I'm not saying an angry vengeance seeking bitch makes a good dominant, just that there can be a positive place for it.

(in reply to Alexander)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 5:35:42 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

This may not be specifically bdsm related but I wonder if anyone else in this community has thought about this.

Tonight I found out yet another one of my girl friends/acquaintances was raped, by a man she knew. She has practiced bdsm as a dominant. She was drunk, woke up being raped. Why have I heard this story so often?

In the world according to Garp there is a group of women who have cut out their own tongues as their symbolic connection with a young girl who was raped and brutalized. They end up violently (or one of them does) killing the protagonist, Garp. In it’s way they are taking vengeance on men in general for sexual brutality.

When I think of this girl friend that I don’t know that well, I think immediately of vengeance. Of seeing how this guy likes being left duct taped for a few days, of seeing how he likes being blindfolded and held for awhile and even letting someone who knows what they are doing give him a taste of his own medicine.

Recently I read in the creative writing section a piece on revenge, aAnd the response to it was very positive. Is it possible there is something within wiitwd that makes this kind of revenge seem fitting if not… deserved?

Alex.


Rape is a crime that has nothing to do with sex. It has everything to do with violence. Vigilantism will not stop rapes from happening. As a victim, I'm certainly not saying that there's anything wrong with you level of anger and indignance on the subject. However, the locus falls on the victims, and unfortunately, I failed along with scores of other victims.

I failed to notify the authorities. I had enough information on my aggressors to have been able to go to the police with it. But mine happened as a result of a consensual BDSM scene that became non-con. I was new in the scene, and I didn't have the foundation yet to be able to articulate the fact that what happened to me crossed the line into non-consentual.

As angry as you are over hearing these stories, you can't possibly know what it feels to live through this. You see people who look like your aggressor years later, and it all comes back and you hold your breath.

Seeking vengence on one does nothing but put yourself at risk. We need to educate ourselves better, and educate kids better about what rape is, and how to protect ourselves and encourage victims to go to the police. The media doesn't help here, as so often the victims are portrayed in ways that demonize them and make the process of coming forward look horrible.

As far as I'm concerned, all men should have the reaction you are having. Following through on that reaction is a totally differant story.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to Alexander)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 6:21:05 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: temptation


If you're the victim of rape, call the police.



And if you do, be prepared to be treated as if you are a blithering idiot by the doctor that examines you, spoken to using foul language because the assumption is that you're too stupid to know that "penis" means "cock" or that "penetration" means "sticking it in your pussy/ ass or making you suck it", be ready to have to give multiple blow by blows of the entire incident for many strangers, be ready to have your traumatized body photographed by strangers, be ready to have to go to court perhaps more than once, be ready to have to give video taped depositions in front of strangers, be prepared to be grilled about any other concensual partners who have left DNA evidence on your body, and be prepared for the perpetrator to cut a deal and get a reduced sentence thereby getting out early. Be prepared to have to move and do your best to be invisible so the perp can't find you (and if the perp is smart, he'll find you anyway if he really wants to).

Be prepared to allow the system to rape you all over again.

For rapists I think that vigilante justice is the most appropriate response. I highly recommend not discussing it, though, as vigilante justice is against the law and they will find you; especially if you talk about it.

No, I never recommend that people who have been victimized in this way call the authorities. The system is not equipped to deal with your trauma (and I don't care WHAT a rape counselor tells you - they are not the defense lawyers) and is more likely to traumatize you further, especially if any of the people who respond are super-focused on getting that next promotion. Expect to be re-raped by the system. If you get anything better then you got lucky.

Find the perp and feed him to the alligators.



_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to temptation)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 6:59:51 AM   
GddssBella


Posts: 343
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		G'morning all:

AMEN MIZSUZ!!! Ladies, forget what the others tell you. In an ideal society, those principles may work. In reality, justice must prevail. I thank whatever powers that may be that such has never occured to me.

Rape is not an act of sexual abuse but rather mental offense. It's an invasion of your privacy, your sanctity, your sanity. It's about power. Which is why I believe the bdsm community sees more than it's share of incidents. The choice of victim is rarely relevant. The victim usually fits a predetermined "type" that the malefactor is drawn to. The truly scary thing? If not caught & dealt with in a reciprocal manner, they never stop.

I commiserate with any lady that has been made a victim. You're never to blame, no matter what anyone tells you. No matter how you dress, how you act, "No." should always mean just that. For those left without the choice or the wherewithal to even voice their denial, my heart goes out to you. If anyone feels the need to sound off privately because they have no else to turn to? My door is always open.


Stay safe all, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...





Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!"

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 7:06:15 AM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		MizSuz, what you said is all too true. Having gone through this myself I have to agree that it's almost worse then just letting it go.
Anyone interested in learning about the real process of justice in a rape case I suggest the book Lucky by Alice Sebold. It is a true story (a memoir) and I must warn you that this book is upsetting and disturbing, but it is a very good read, especially for people who want to know how that American justice system really deals with the crime of rape.

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 8:47:48 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nella

Revenge is somthing we all can yearn for, but it is not right. Contreary to the eye for an eye ideology, two wrongs do not make one right. Take America an its death sentences for exampel. Do it help anyone to brutaly kill somone from having killed somone else? all you end up whit are more killing. Revenge have started so many wars, destroyed so many lives, it is never for the good, never.



Theoretically I agree with you. In practice it falls short and the reason it falls short is because there will ALWAYS be someone out there who will TAKE what they can as long as there are people who are not willing to fight back.

The person who tries to TAKE from me will be met with resistance. Always.

I don't agree that an eye for an eye is vengeance. Nothing in life is free (save life energy) and people who take must pay the toll not only for that which they have taken but also for taking without permission.

In case someone hasn't noticed, this is a sensitive subject for me.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 9:38:25 AM   
joecool


Posts: 31
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Rochester
Status: offline 		I definately agree with the passion you have for some form of justice. However, I have to agree with the 'call the police' advice. I thought about this a lot, and I would hope that if I were in your shoes that I would be able to distance myself from my emotions long enough to make a sound judgement. I can say that because I'm sitting here safely detached from what happened. I realize that if it happened to a friend or relation of mine, my immediate reaction would be the same as yours, and I'd probably stay in that mindset for a while.

To answer the question, no, I don't think WIIWD relates directly to this situation. I think its a part of the human condition to want vengenance for wrongs.

(in reply to MizSuz)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 11:42:25 AM   
sweetpleaser


Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
Status: offline 		Hey, I had forgotten about "World According to Garp", thanks for bringing back memories--very quirky. Anyway, all revenge does is get you into trouble and why go to jail for some scumbag? That is my basic foundation, however, I have a funny story. My aunt was attacked once and the perp woke up one night on his stomach with his arms and legs tied to the 4 posts of his bed. He was beat with a sock filled with quarters so no real marks came up, but he knew he was being punished.

< Message edited by sweetpleaser -- 4/1/2005 11:43:34 AM >

_____________________________

~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to Alexander)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 1:19:23 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		When I said an eye for an eye, I don't mean that to involve capital punishment.
Mental is more binding. Making someone live with their actions for year's is much better to me.
Physical pain goes away. Mental stays and lingers forever.
Done it before and more than likely will in the future.

If society were perfect we would also be punished for mental punishment but it isn't so...an eye for an eye all the way.

Just wanted to clarify what it means to me.


(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 2:12:33 PM   
srahfox


Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		Yes in a perfect world anyone who was raped would just have to say the word and the law and what have you would just find whoever did it and make all better. The rapest would be properly punished and would forever truely understand what he/she did wrong. This isn't a perfect world, yes, the law gets everything all screwed up and it's almost worse to admite to it. But if you don't come forward, nothing will change. The guy will keep on doing what he wants, he will never stop. If you come forward at least there is some chance that he will be caught and locked up for at least some time. I know if it were me, and I'd been able to point a finger at the person who'd hurt me and didn't then someone else got raped.. I would feel horrible.
I will admitte that When my Father Raped me I stayed silent for a long long time. When I did tell we were far away and my mom got in trouble for it. (She worked evenings and I was in school so she didn't get to see me much) But you know, I told my whole family so everyone (Even his parents) knew. If he did anything fishy to anyone else in their presence they would have noted it. Payback wasn't spectacular but in the end he lost his children, never saw his grandchildren, lost his whole family and died a sick lonely man alone. Maybe it doesn't seem like a lot, but he had little joy in his life.
Eye for an eye sounds right and just, but there if generally no real way to inact that in reality.

(in reply to sub4hire)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/1/2005 2:18:33 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Interesting concept, an eye for an eye.

It is impossible to accomplish.
It doesn't and connot exist.

Rape isn't usually a sexual action, but an abusive one.

An eye for an eye is the idea of getting what one gives. Therefore, vengance isnt eye for an eye. Because you are not giving back in the exact. So, it cannot exist.

I have suffered such an attack. I know about the system. And sometimes, that system sucks. But for others, it works... sometimes, you can receive excellent treatment.
Maybe its the 'luck of the coin'.
Tie a person up, leave them for days, abuse them, scare them. Let them pay for the 'crime' they inflicted.
But that makes you no better than the person who originally commited an offense.
In fact, It gives them power. Allowing your energy to be wasted on their presence... on their personality? Look what they have then turned you into -
Them.

'The karma police will get them' - Thomas Yorke.


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Alexander)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 3:11:08 AM   
lovingmaster45


Posts: 261
Joined: 9/16/2004
Status: offline 		Miz Suz is correct. I taught criminology for 26 years and ALWAYS took my classes to a rape trial. I did this to give them a dose of reality. IMHO the women of today have been endangered by the mantra of the feminist movement which says "No means NO."...Bull shit.

There are ways to protect yourself from being fucked when you are not wanting it, and they all involve not being an idiot.

As to the asssertion that "rape is rape"; again, BS. Look at the rape statutes in your state. You will find there are varying degrees of rape and in some states, very specific definitions of the kinds of behavior involved in each "level". That is why the endless questions. The prosecutors must file the appropriate charges.

I do not know the specifics in the case described here, but just from the description given; I would say there is very little chance of getting a rape conviction in such cases. The reality is we live in an uptight "moralistic" society....notice I did nto say moral. When a jury hears a woman was drunk, her "morals" are immediately questioned and the chance for conviction goes way down.

When I hear a story like that I wonder who are her friends and where were they? Where is her brain? What in the hell was she thinking?

My brother and I only had to beat up one of my sister's dates to put other males on notice that they were not to mess with our sister. IMHO that is what is behind a lot of these cases; no family or community support.

I have always instructed my wife that if she is ever threatened or violated that she is to come to me first and I will determine the kind of "justice" to be meted out. It might involve the police and courts; but with all my experience in the "system" it likely willl not. Just look at Miz Suz post...it is absolutly dead on the money.

My heart goes out to your friend. I am sorry we live in the kind of world that we do; but we have to face reality. No does not mean no. Being drunk or drugged does put us in danger; and YES we are sometimes partly to blame for the nasty shit that befalls us.

_____________________________

Master Jerry


(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 4:58:08 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Fighting back is not vengance, fighting back is ok. But direct vengance is not. Let me take an exampel from norweegian legal practices. There was this woman that when young was part of a radical group, they once highjacked a plae, the whole thing resulted in the group being arested and the pale pilot dead. Becouse of the laws of the contry the woman only got a bit of time in jail, then was let out.

Twnety years passed. The radical young woman turned into a loving mother, having a husband and children. Then suderly the justice system desided she had not been punished enough and two her in jail, all under the banner of justice for the dead pilot`s family. Now that sort of thing is not fighting back, that sort of thing is not justice, it is just plain, brutal, pointless vengance.

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 5:45:38 AM   
TheRealCyrano


Posts: 1
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		My personal take on this is that any crime of rape should be punished with castration (not chemical, real actual castration). Any attempt at another offense should be punished by death. Any rape of a child - death. Unfortunatly, our society does not punish the criminal, they support them and give them better living conditions, access to SatTV/Cable, 3 meals a day, and like-minded individuals to spent their time with. This is by far, NOT punishment or justice. How is the criminal supposed to feel remorse for his/her crime if they are rewarded instead of being punished? The answer is simple to this problem, but society will never permit it. It may sound harsh, but it would work, and these problems would not exist because the rapist, murderer or other violent offender would simply be too afraid to commit the crime for fear of the punishment.

BTW: Hi, this is my first post

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 20
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