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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 9:09:56 PM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		Hmm..... I once heard second hand a tale of a fellow who did just this,got vengance for a rape. It seems that a group of four men grabbed his girlfriend and brutally gang raped her. Unfortunately for them,he found out who,what,and where.

He proceeded to systematically hunt them down,beat them senseless..And he cut off thier penises in vengeance. He also went to prison for quite some time for assault and mutilation of these same men-and they are still out there,free to do futher harm to HER in vengance, while he rots in there.

Ghandi once said "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

Vengance belongs to the legal system,poor as it often is-not to individuals.

(in reply to TheRealCyrano)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 8:08:20 AM   
MedusaOblongata


Posts: 3
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: San Francisco
Status: offline 		I think rapists should be killed. If the "justice" system did that effectively that would be great. Unfortunately it doesn't.

I'm reminded of a ST song, "Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But They Make Me Feel A Whole Lot Better."

While I think killing all rapists is, in general, the best idea, most people, victims and others, do not have the proper emotional or cognitive disposition to do this effectively and get away with it, so I don't recommend it as a course of action in most circumstances.

While the death penalty, whether meted out by the "justice" system or anyone else, may not act as an effective deterrent for most rapists, it will certainly deter that rapist from ever doing it again, which is something the justice system fails at miserably.

While rape is never the victim's fault, there are things women can do to make themselves less likely to be victimized, and I find it unfortunate that so few do.

When most women carry guns, most rapists will masturbate alone in the dark.


_____________________________

[email protected]

San Francisco, CA

(in reply to Gemeni)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 9:11:18 AM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		Even if the death penelty was used for rape cases, the rapist would have to be convicted, which is often as hard as actually getting the victim to press charges.
Cases have been dismissed for reasons that would be laughable if they were not dealing with so serious of an issue. Cases have been dismissed for the following reasons:

1) "Boys will be boys, and boys have needs" This defense was actually used and resulted in the dismissal of a case. In this case over 300 boys stormed a girls dormitry and raped the 71 girls inside, several of the girls died as a direct result of this violance. The case was dimissed because they boys "never ment any harm against the girls"

2) The clothing that the victim is wearing at the time of the rape. Rapists have been set free because the victim was dressed in a seductive or sexual way. In one case the victim was wearing tight jeans, the judge decided that the rapist could not have removed the jeans without the consent of the victim, therefore it was not a rape.

3) In some areas the man can be absolved of all charges if he simply marries the victim (this can be done with or without the consent of the victim in some areas). This is not only places the woman in more danger and does not punish the rapist.



All facts and statistics from Exploring the Architecture of Everyday Life: Sociology, Fourth Edition by David M. Newman, Chapter 12

(in reply to MedusaOblongata)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 10:20:23 AM   
ProScatman


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		I really and truly feel for you, MizSuz, and the others here who have been taken advantage of. I attended Ashland U. Majoring in Criminal Justice, with a concintration in Psychology, and can't figure out what someone would get out of rapeing someone? I dissagree with the premes that if a woman is drunk--she is fair game, because she isn't a lady any more, because of the drink! If I had 5 bucks for every female I either carried in to her apt, or slept it off in a park somewhere with, and didn't even think of taking advantage I could go get an Alienware gaming puter! Power, strength, domination and control being justifacations for rape? Bullshit! I'd personally be happy to debate the good doctor any time on his hypothises. I firmly believe it is a type of mental illness which in most cases will end up as repeat offenders. Just check the recidivism percentages! Those who are charged with rape are usually charged with a lessor included offense of Gross Sexual Imposition, or G.S.I. so if a jury don't feel a rape has actually taken place, they can fall back on the GSI, and go home feeling justice has been served with a 3 to 5 year sentence. And I do not believe it will ever be acceptable to Americans, no matter the woman's character! In my humble opinion even the female town drunk has the same rights and protections against rape as Don Trumps Secretaries, and we shouldn't accept less. Ever heard of a Rape Kit? D.N.A.? Please don't get me wrong siamsa24, I'm not suggesting your concepts are wrong--I'm saying more attention needs to be payed to whose text books are purchased by our universities and colleges, and who is reviewing and reccomending those perchases [their personal opinions] , and then a more enlightened view of the mores' we are teaching our policy makers of tomorrow. Then, possibly, the burden of proof won't be so easily reversed, and the victims re-raped by the system. I have an unerstanding of the mental torment women go through, but I'll never be able to relate with their hurt, unless I too become a victim. Please accept my appologies for the long winded post, but this is a sensitive subject to me .
quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24

According to sociologist Dr. Griffen rape is considered the "All-American crime." He says (and I agree) that all of the characteristics of rape are considered good characteristics for an American man to have: strength, power, domination and control.
As long as these characteristics are considered to be proper male characteristics in American society rape will continue to be a problem.

Also, "In rape cases, unlike any other crime, victims must prove their innocence rather then the state having to prove the guilt of the defendent."
Meaning that they victims are considered at fault unless they can prove otherwise, which leads to the next fact, that rape is the most often commited, but least often reported crime in the United States.

In my experience, I was horribly beaten and gang raped multiple times by the same individuals. I went to the police and they refused to believe me. When I at last got someone to listen we went to trial and after a long and humiliating ordeal all six men were let go without punishment.
I was 14, they were all in their late-20's and early 30's.
I know this is personal, but I hope that this helps people to understand where I am coming from.

Rape is not a something that can be "cured" through rehabilitation. Too often rapists walk free and the victim is labeled a liar and a slut.
Often the victim is told to say that the rapist is a "flasher" because he is more likely to get convicted for exposing himself in public then for rape. If a rapist does go to prison he is the lowest in the hierarchy and is often beaten by the other inmates (the only ones lower are "flashers", child molesters and those that commit other sexual crimes toward minors, these are considered "crimes toward the innocent." I don't understand, but this is direct from a group that I talked to at the local prison about these issues so I assume that it is true, at least in some areas).

I'm sorry for such a long post, but this is an issue that I feel very strongly about and I feel that not enough is known about the actual process of "justice" in rape cases.
I, again, recomment the book Lucky to anyone who wants to know what really happens after a rape is commited. The book goes fast and everyone can benefit from reading it.


All facts and statistics from Exploring the Architecture of Everyday Life: Sociology, Fourth Edition by David M. Newman, Chapter 12




_____________________________

The objection to Puritans is not that they try to make us think as they do, but that they try to make us do as they think.

Have a good day, Mike

(in reply to siamsa24)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 10:26:02 AM   
Gemeni


Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		Modern dna testing has helped get more convictions,but I think it still doesn't go far enough with repeat offenders.

I really think that the state needs to take steps to nueter rapists and child molesters,either chemically-or with total castration.(Testicles,penis,the works) That's for the second offense-the third resulting in life, with no possibility of parole.

Now I know you will say "How could he do it a third without a cock?" But these guys really are about the power aspect,and I would not put it past one of these guys to try again,even just in a molestation way.

< Message edited by Gemeni -- 4/4/2005 10:28:16 AM >

(in reply to ProScatman)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 11:49:03 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I really think that the state needs to take steps to nueter rapists and child molesters,either chemically-or with total castration.(Testicles,penis,the works) That's for the second offense-the third resulting in life, with no possibility of parole.


In the Patriarchal society in which we live I highly doubt you would ever be able to get a court to order cutting off men's penises.

quote:

Now I know you will say "How could he do it a third without a cock?" But these guys really are about the power aspect,and I would not put it past one of these guys to try again,even just in a molestation way.


The fact is that you are correct, there will still be reoffenders because rape is not a crime motivated my sex. It is about the control, humiliation and destruction of another human being. If they no longer have the "tools", they will simply find something else to use and most likely will express themselves in a more violent manner. This "solution" could actually prove to assure more women dying at the hands of these men.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Gemeni)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 12:10:03 PM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		Not all of my post was based on my text books, some was based on personal experience and interviews.
I understand where you are coming from, but I feel that people need to understand that even if a rape is reported, DNA is collected and evidence is presented in court it does not often result in a conviction. This ordeal is also very humiliating and possibly dangerous for the victim. In my experience, the men that I testified against were not held prior to the trial and I was not given the protection that I asked for. I felt that my life was in danger and nothing was done. I ended up staying in another city with a friend in order to feel safe.
I am not saying that this happens all the time, only that it happens more often then the American justice system would like to admit.

Again, all of these men are currently walking free because I was unable to "prove" that a crime was commited, even with DNA evidence, evidence of physical, psychological, emotional and mental injury and my testimony were not enough.

(in reply to ProScatman)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 12:42:34 PM   
ProScatman


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		Yes, I agree with you 100%! And, possibly the dickless and balless bastard would do even worse! But here in Ohio, I don't believe it is that simple. Because of different woman's rights groups, and the new sentencing laws, repeat offenders are classed as Sexual Predators, and are required to check in with the local police and sheriff's departments every 90 days when they are finally let out again. Depending on the ellements of the offense; it can be quite some considerable time before that happens! I believe there is a ray of hope for some small satisfaction on the part of victims of future rape artists! I'm not sure if it's right to go in to this here, but I have known men and women who have had a problem with alcohol. Medical Science says it is an Illness! Many of these people reach their "Bottom", and do something about their problem. Since rapests are considered to be sick individuals; you would think their bottom would be allowing themselves to loose control and rape! Would that not be considered that person's bottom by a person of average intellegence? To me, unless the rapest is also a Sociopath, they should want to take steps to prevent a re-occurance? Not hardly! If they get away with it--they will seek another victim, and another till caught or shot! So, with this in mind--IMHO, I believe rapests are Anti-Social Sociopathic ingrates, that are unfit to be allowed in the public. I'm refering to the hard core types who wouldn't accept sex if offered in a loving way. Then you have the Date Rapests who will slip something in a lady's drink, and hope she doesn't remember. Then, you have the other Date Rape where someone changes their mind at the last minute, and no is interpeted as yes! I have a feeling that at least here in Ohio; since we now have the right to carry concealed weapons rapest are going to have a hard time finding victims here! I appologise if I have offended anyone with my opinions, it was not my intent to do so. My heart goes out to all in this thread who have made their painful experiences public here! And I hope someday you can feel less pain.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gemeni

Modern dna testing has helped get more convictions,but I think it still doesn't go far enough with repeat offenders.

I really think that the state needs to take steps to nueter rapists and child molesters,either chemically-or with total castration.(Testicles,penis,the works) That's for the second offense-the third resulting in life, with no possibility of parole.

Now I know you will say "How could he do it a third without a cock?" But these guys really are about the power aspect,and I would not put it past one of these guys to try again,even just in a molestation way.



_____________________________

The objection to Puritans is not that they try to make us think as they do, but that they try to make us do as they think.

Have a good day, Mike

(in reply to Gemeni)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/4/2005 12:51:38 PM   
ProScatman


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		And that is precisely why my heart goes out to you, and all the others on this thread who have made public their bad experiences with the justice system! Truly, Mike
quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24

Not all of my post was based on my text books, some was based on personal experience and interviews.
I understand where you are coming from, but I feel that people need to understand that even if a rape is reported, DNA is collected and evidence is presented in court it does not often result in a conviction. This ordeal is also very humiliating and possibly dangerous for the victim. In my experience, the men that I testified against were not held prior to the trial and I was not given the protection that I asked for. I felt that my life was in danger and nothing was done. I ended up staying in another city with a friend in order to feel safe.
I am not saying that this happens all the time, only that it happens more often then the American justice system would like to admit.

Again, all of these men are currently walking free because I was unable to "prove" that a crime was commited, even with DNA evidence, evidence of physical, psychological, emotional and mental injury and my testimony were not enough.



_____________________________

The objection to Puritans is not that they try to make us think as they do, but that they try to make us do as they think.

Have a good day, Mike

(in reply to siamsa24)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/6/2005 12:10:29 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: muffinguy69

I call it street justice, and all for making him or others like him pay.


'Street Justice' is just another phrase used to try and make violence sound more respectable.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to muffinguy69)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/6/2005 12:15:48 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Interesting that everyone seems commited to mentioning rape as though it is a womens only issue. Many men are raped each day... Is it because women are seen as 'helpless' that everyone seems more 'shocked' at such occurences?

Just a thought.

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/7/2005 3:56:54 AM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		Earlier tonight I had an experience with my 14-year-old daughter that had me thinking about this thread once again. Thank God, she was NOT raped or sexually assaulted. However, while about to leave a friend's house down the street from our home, was approached by four neighborhood boys -- all also around 14 or 15 years old.

These boys decided that verbal taunting was not enough -- probably because my intelligent daughter did not give them the response they were looking for -- and started throwing rocks, sticks, a basketball, and then emptied a recycle container including plastic and glass bottles. One boy -- who lived right next door to this house -- proceeded to pee on the ground, barely missing her and telling her he was going to pee on her. This was all done with a verbal tirade.

As luck would have it, my son, age 16 and over 6 feet tall, happened up and came to her rescue, giving the usual "leave my sister alone" kind of remarks, but did not touch them or do anything aggressive, and walked her home, telling her they would leave her alone now, because they would be scared of him. He did not threaten them and as he told me later -- he didn't have to.

My daughter and I talked it over after she came home and decided the best decision was to report it to the police, with my pushing her to do this. These kids are apparently well known to the police, as I found out. I am relatively new to this town, so I wasn't familiar with them or their parents. We drove to the police, all the while my reassuring her that this was the "right thing to do". She was very unsure, constantly worried about retaliation, about "tattling", etc. Still I said over and over.......this is the right thing to do. If we don't report these things to the police -- how are these kids going to be stopped? If everyone reports what they do, the juvenile system will get involved and take over. If no one reports it -- they will keep doing it.

Well, the police were at first somewhat friendly and caring. We discussed the details, my daughter clear and concise in her story. She was marked, bruised, had sticks and rocks in her hair, was visibly upset, and constantly had to fight back tears. She was obviously frightened. She admitted the things she could not tell them (such as I didn't see who threw that) and did not try to make anything up. The police strongly advised AGAINST formally pressing charges, as they stated that would likely cause more trouble in the neighborhood and "if my car windows were smashed, they'd have no proof and could do nothing about it." We opted to have the boys brought in with their parents and they'd be given a minor police station charge, no court or anything.

They rounded up the boys and they were seated right outside the room where we waited, which was all glass. My daughter freaked out when she saw the first one. The boys were laughing it up, along with their parents. The father pointed at my daughter, saying -- "Is THAT the girl?" Smiling all the while. The police talked to them for all of about ten minutes and suddenly an officer was at our door with a completely different attitude. Upon being told that my son had also seen them, they said they had done it -- but that my daughter had "thrown something too." My daughter looked up and said that well, at one point during the scuffle, yes, she had reached down and tried to grab for something to defend herself, only coming up with a handful of dirt and some gravel, which she tried to toss their way to get them to leave her alone. She did this once. The boys even admitted she only did it once or twice -- but after all this, she was now not considered a victim. It doesn't matter that it was FOUR boys ganging up on her, with evidence all over the street, broken glass included, her bruised and dirty. None of that mattered any longer.

Now we were given a lecture on the consequences of turning in someone who really didn't commit a crime! We were told that if she had even picked up one thing in her hand -- she was now a participant and they could not say that the boys did anything wrong. Suddenly my daughter was a troublemaker and the police were "tired of dealing with the trouble in this neighborhood". The attitude was one of contempt and going on about bringing these boys into the police station and all the work it took for the police officers to round them up and talk to them and their parents. I was actually given the line -- "well, you know how BOYS will be." I was also told that they had reported that my son had threatened them..........and if anything were to happen to those boys' property, etc..........that my son would be held accountable. Again, these were boys whom the police were already on very familiar terms with and knew immediately who my daughter was talking about when she gave their names, even one just a first name.

My daughter was distraught and unconsolable. She herself said to me -- "You see, Mom? This is why no girls ever tell on anyone. They never believe us and they never DO anything." Followed of course by: "Why did you make me come here and report this?" She worried that the boys would break a window in their own home -- in order to blame it on her brother.

I realized in the wee hours of the morning, after accepting that sleep was not going to happen......that it starts at the beginning, doesn't it?

What are we teaching these kids -- both the girls AND the boys?

I know what they taught my daughter -- that there is no justice and the police will not help you. And who knows what else. And we wonder why adult women are already resigned to it, that no help will be there. Is it any wonder?

I apologize for the length of this post............and unburdening here. I just couldn't help but notice the connection. As well as wonder what the hell we can do about it.

And what the hell am I supposed to tell my daughter? What are we to tell any of our daughters?

Again, sorry for the rant. Be safe and be well,
harmony

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/7/2005 5:39:11 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

And what the hell am I supposed to tell my daughter?


Harmony,
First of all, I would like to say that I am so sorry that your family had to experience such violence....and also such poor judgement on the part of your local police. You tell your daughter that she did the RIGHT thing. You tell your son that he did the RIGHT thing. I am sure that your daughter was absolutely terrified. This was an assault and should certainly have been treated as one. As far as your daughter's "participation", I would explain to her that contrary to the police opinion, she did nothing wrong. We all have the right to defend ourselves from an attack, by whatever means is available to us at the time.

I know how frustrated that you are, but your hands are not completely tied. I would first suggest that you contact your local Domestic Violence shelter. They can either talk to you or refer you to a more appropriate agency. Possibly there is a Teen Violence task force in your area. I would right a letter to the Chief of Police or Sheriff and explain to him, much as you did here, how you saw the treatment of your family by his officers and the attitude that they projected. I would go on to explain, as you did here, that this sends a message to your children that there really is no assistance offered by his department to victims, and that reporting crime is now viewed by them as futile. Ask him to explain to you just exactly how it is you are supposed to teach your children to rely upon a system that has failed them when they needed it.

I had an experience with my son when he was sixteen years old that you have reminded me of. He was walking down the hall at school with a girl when another boy came up behind them and grabbed the girls rear end. She immediately swung around and put a well placed slap across his face. He then grabbed her and threw her head first into a locker splitting her head open. My son reacted by decking the guy and making him apologize to the girl. Now my son was very tall, but very thin, and the other guy outweighed him by about 75 lbs. My son had never been in an altercation of any kind up to that point. Well the next thing I know, my son is thrown out of school and is charged with assault. The other boy received no consequences....because as you know....boys will be boys.

Well I have to tell you that I was just livid! Not only was I infuriated that the other boy was being sent a message that violence against girls was perfectly ok, my son was being punished for something that I felt was the RIGHT thing to do. I would never condone violence, but if my son felt that he needed to make a stand, then I don't think he could have picked a better reason than coming to the aid of a girl who was being attacked by a boy. The whole thing ended up being thrown out of court due to my unrelenting tirade against the principal, the police and the courts....and my threats to take the entire matter to the local media. The other boy was never given consequences of any kind and just a year later was arrested for sexual assault of another female, this time he had gotten much farther than grabbing her rear.

At that time, I made sure that I once again wrote letters to the principal, the police and the court and told them that I held them partially to blame, as they had the opportunity to address that boys behavior a year prior and had failed miserably. I told them that I thought that their refusal to address the issue then with him was tantamount to giving him permission to go on and attack the victim that they now had. I don't know if it made one hill of beans difference in their thought processes, but I felt as though I had done what I could do.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to harmony3709)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/8/2005 10:00:13 PM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks so much for the kind words and advice, erin. I had already done some of the things that you suggested, and I think my daughter is handling is very well. Luckily she has friends who seem to be very supportive of her as well.

Actually I had thought I'd slip back in here and remove my post before it was responded to or noticed, lol. I'm not usually one to sort of spill my guts the way I did, (and am a bit embarrassed about it) but I guess it was just the stress and all, not to mention the extreme lack of sleep when I wrote it.

I am very sorry for what happened with your son and the incident he was involved in. I congratulate him for his courage in standing up for someone like that and it's really awful that it turned out the way it did. Always reminds me of the "no good deed goes unpunished" way of thinking. Unfortunately the desire to rid the schools of violence has taken some extremely strange turns. Our schools do not allow anyone to defend themselves or come to the aid of another -- if you do, you are part of the problem and will be punished. I once asked at a school forum on this: "So what do you advise your female students to do if attacked in the bathroom?" They actually could not even give me an answer, because according to their rules, if you even push someone who is attacking you, you are now also an attacker. Again, what does that teach? Geesh.

I am greatful though for the concern and suggestions. I am a firm believer that we learn from each experience and have told my daughter that she will be made stronger for this, and has done well in empowering herself by reporting it, no matter the outcome. If nothing else, hopefully these boys now know that at least my daughter and I will not hesitate to report them if their actions warrant it and that will give my daughter a bit of a shield from them.

Thanks again,

harmony

< Message edited by harmony3709 -- 4/8/2005 10:06:11 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
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