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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 7:46:05 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		How can you suport mutilation and death for raping somone? That is barbaric. And as for the while child sex ofence hysteria. Yes it is a horribel thing, but the world is going cracy, it is a witch hunt out there.

(in reply to TheRealCyrano)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 8:02:11 AM   
devotionsweet


Posts: 14
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline 		Vengence and rape.....
Things that look great in type, but leave a bad taste in your mounth in real life.
my own personal experiences aside, one has to wonder about the shifting of this to the outside parties, i.e., someone telling you they were raped, and then blowing up with the i'll kill them, lets get em' let's get revenge. i feel this is flawed. Imagine being in this person's feet. Do you really thing they need to live through your anger of the situation, that they need to feel or percieve your interpertation of events. Trust me in saying, it doesn't work, and at the risk of sounding critical, it really only makes the situation worse, it's become about how you feel about it more so than how they feel about it, and who's feelings are most important in this situation?
As i am a fan of justice, i am more a fan of sanity, and the insanity and guilt that could possibly stem from attacking an attacker, isn't going to make anyone feel better.
Ever read the book cunt? The author's name slips my mind now, but i prefer her take on vengence, first and foremost, yes there are *professionals* that should, in thoery, *catch* the *perp* but more over, don't underestimate the impact of exposing the offender for who he is in real life to his real life.
But violence, i don't understand how voilence agianst a violent act can make anyone feel better, at least beyond that split second in which it seemed a good idea.
Agian, it's just my personal opinion and experience that's led me to this.

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 8:21:30 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		I agree complelty devotionsweet.

(in reply to devotionsweet)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 8:40:59 AM   
ProScatman


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRealCyrano

My personal take on this is that any crime of rape should be punished with castration (not chemical, real actual castration). Any attempt at another offense should be punished by death. Any rape of a child - death. Unfortunatly, our society does not punish the criminal, they support them and give them better living conditions, access to SatTV/Cable, 3 meals a day, and like-minded individuals to spent their time with. This is by far, NOT punishment or justice. How is the criminal supposed to feel remorse for his/her crime if they are rewarded instead of being punished? The answer is simple to this problem, but society will never permit it. It may sound harsh, but it would work, and these problems would not exist because the rapist, murderer or other violent offender would simply be too afraid to commit the crime for fear of the punishment.

BTW: Hi, this is my first post

My first Criminal Justice Professor told the whole class on the first day that there are two kinds of law; text book law, and the law that actually gets practiced in the real world! Unfortunatly, I have to agree with MisSuz! This has always been a hotly debated subject, because of the times we live in! Why are some criminals getting away with rape? Because, unfortunatly, there are those who would make a false police report two or 3 weeks after the fact, and claim they have showered all the D.N.A away in the process of deciding weather to come forward to report the crime, when no crime has been committed! Just like on this site--there are people in real life who will go to any extreem to get attention; and that hurts good people like those who have posted here today! In a criminal case the jury must be convinced "Beyond a reasonable doubt" (91%) IMHO! No, I don't like the idea of rapest going unpunished! It is a sickness, and I believe one that is never cured no mater what is done, except the removal from society.

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(in reply to TheRealCyrano)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 9:13:58 AM   
devotionsweet


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Joined: 12/16/2004
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[/quote] No, I don't like the idea of rapest going unpunished! It is a sickness, and I believe one that is never cured no mater what is done, except the removal from society.
[/quote]

Agian my own experiences aside.....
i think what people don't understand that there is a *sickness* factor to this, and that before it gets to the point of violent crime, many of the people who commit rape and other violent acts have showed the *signs*. Now remember i said *most*, and fact being, that if they were to recieve the proper consoling in a non judgemental setting, if they recieved the proper attention for their problem, many of the acts by repeat offenders wouldn't happen, at least in a perfect world, but we don't live there.
As for castration, the chemical casteration is using depo shots, like what women use for birth control, and, really, there is no reason why these arn't used. It is my understanding it doesn't take away the thoughts, but it does take away the *drive* for lack of better term to follow through with these things..... why on earth it isn't implemented more is beyond me, it can't be cost, in the grand scope of things, it's dirth cheep.
But, understand, this is my *non partial view* of that subject. Although i was i hate the word victim, but that's what i'll use here, of violent rape, i've been fortunate enough that my children haven't, and i can say in all confidence, if that were the case, my feelings would be *quite* different.

(in reply to ProScatman)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 10:18:21 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

There are ways to protect yourself from being fucked when you are not wanting it, and they all involve not being an idiot.


I guess that all those women who have been raped and beaten while walking across a parking lot, walking down a street, sleeping in their beds or just plain minding their own damn business were just being idiots. How idiotic of the two years olds who have been raped to not have been more responsible for their personal behavior.....or the 90 year old women. Certainly they must have been "asking for it" in some way. How idiotic a notion to think that you could just live life without having to be in constant fear of rape. How idiotic a notion to think that you didn't have to view every male who comes in contact with you as a potential rapist.

quote:

No does not mean no. Being drunk or drugged does put us in danger; and YES we are sometimes partly to blame for the nasty shit that befalls us.


I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. When I say no it really does mean no and if you or anyone else decides to push past that boundary, then you will assume the consequences of your actions....and I will hold anyone who does accountable. Blaming victims is never going to solve the issues that this society has with rape. Not to mention is an outright insult to those of us who have been victims. Furthermore, being drunk or drugged still does not give consent to anyone to rape you. I don't care if you walk down the street buck ass naked wearing a sign that says "Fuck Me".......no one has the right to rape you. Period.

I do agree with Miz Suz in her accurate depiction of what occurs in the system that we currently have in place in our society. While I absolutely agree with her assessment, that is where my agreement stops. While I understand that our system isn't perfect, it is the best thing that is currently available to us. Speaking from the point of someone who has walked that road I can tell you that the interactions between victim and system can be downright humiliating and yes you are likely to feel victimized all over again....but if every victim chooses not to take action I can assure you that there will be no men in this country sent to prison for this offense. Rape will go right back to being the crime no one ever talks about or admits to being a victim of. We can just shove all the victims right back into the closet. Come on.....rapists....just like cockroaches......HATE being brought out into the light.

quote:

My brother and I only had to beat up one of my sister's dates to put other males on notice that they were not to mess with our sister.


Violence is not the answer to violence. Do I understand the concept of vengeance? You bet your ass I do. After I was attacked I can not begin to tell you the countless hours that I sat thinking of nothing else. I came up with tortures that would make the most extreme of sadists cringe. Had I acted upon those thoughts though, what would that have made me? I would have been even lower on the evolutionary ladder than my attacker. Would it have taken away the scars...physical....emotional? Of course not. It would only have served to consume me, to change me even further. I had to let those thoughts go and have faith in the concept that what goes around really does come around and that I believe that there will be a day in all of our lives when we have to be accountable....and rapists are no exception. I believe one day they will have to answer for their transgressions. Whether it be to the authorities.....or to their maker. When that day comes for me I want to be able to walk into it knowing that I did not take vengeance into my own hands and have to answer for that.


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 11:24:09 AM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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quote:

My brother and I only had to beat up one of my sister's dates to put other males on notice that they were not to mess with our sister. IMHO that is what is behind a lot of these cases; no family or community support.


In the case of a rapist, they do not 'fear' reprisals. They would not 'fear' what a girls brother 'might' do. Very few rapists would rationalise in that way.

quote:

I have always instructed my wife that if she is ever threatened or violated that she is to come to me first and I will determine the kind of "justice" to be meted out. It might involve the police and courts; but with all my experience in the "system" it likely willl not. Just look at Miz Suz post...it is absolutly dead on the money.


It is possible. But not all that visit this site are from the US, and therefore the law would be different for them. Something to consider.

quote:

My heart goes out to your friend. I am sorry we live in the kind of world that we do; but we have to face reality. No does not mean no. Being drunk or drugged does put us in danger; and YES we are sometimes partly to blame for the nasty shit that befalls us.


It is true, we make our own decisions. We are responsible for ourselves, ultimately. If we go out and get so drunk that we do not know what we are doing or where we are, that is our responsibility.(Unless we have been drugged/spiked etc)... We must take responsibility for ourselves and realise that our actions all have a consequence.
Unfortunately, we live in a world which is not perfect. Is it right that a woman cannot walk through a deserted carpark to reach her car, without fear of being attacked? No, of course it isn't. But the equality women have fought for is the same fear that men have to endure as well. Men are raped, they have been since the dawn of time. I don't see anyone wanting to slit the throat of another mans rapist?

Violence begat violence. But the cycle can be broken.

I always find it ironic that people can condone violence against another human being for raping, yet find no distaste in naming a particular type of play, 'play rape'... but of course that is different, isn't it...

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(in reply to lovingmaster45)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 2:25:59 PM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		I read this topic with the conflicting opinions that I frequently have toward basically what is construed in this country (US) as punishment or consequences for your actions and the fact that I consider myself a pacifist. I know I do not believe in the death penalty and it certainly is not a deterrent. What I also do know is what we are doing now is not working in terms of just throwing someone in a cell and thinking that this will keep them from doing whatever it is they did in the future when we let them out again.

As far as reporting rape, I can completely understand why a woman would not report it. Maybe those who have been treated badly by the system are just more vocal, but is it truly possible to be treated well as a rape victim? Just the physical examination and photographs alone are once again invasive, humiliating, and violating. But anyone who thinks that more women reporting rape and going through the same motions is somehow going to change the "system" and the way rape victims are treated.........oh please, give me a break. Systems are not typically changed until those in charge are forced to do so. It has to be a politically correct issue, or you have to have people with a financial interest in it use their tactics, or a lot of people coming forward with a loud enough voice to force the change.

Vengence may not solve the problem or change what happened to you and no, as many pointed out -- it probably won't make the victim feel better. However, justice may -- and SHOULD -- empower a victim, thereby helping them to heal, although unfortunately, this isn't going to take away what happened. Personally, I think punishment should be focused on consequences for your actions and not an attempt to make the victim feel better, therefore leaving the victim to wonder why they DON'T feel better on the cases when they do see justice.

Lastly, I don't think that a punishment such as castration, especially for a serial rapist, does turn us into "them". What the rapist or criminal did was done in cruelty and out of evil. Allowing the victim or family members or friends to be the ones to provide the punishment would bring too much emotion and more hatred into it, (which is why being a vigilante really doesn't work) but that is why we have juries and judges to decide a fate and other third parties to carry out the punishment. Then the punishment is administered out of discipline and to keep it from happening again, as well as hopefully, yes, indicate to others that this is what will happen to you if you commit this crime. Maybe raping a rapist is not the answer........but throwing them in a cell, even in bad conditions, is not working either. There has to be another answer.

harmony

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 2:36:12 PM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		The problem is this. If you castrate a rapist, what do you get? Often theese things are not aboute sex, it is aboute voilence and hurting pepole, they will just find other ways of hurting pepole.

(in reply to harmony3709)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/2/2005 2:53:20 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

But anyone who thinks that more women reporting rape and going through the same motions is somehow going to change the "system" and the way rape victims are treated.........oh please, give me a break. Systems are not typically changed until those in charge are forced to do so. It has to be a politically correct issue, or you have to have people with a financial interest in it use their tactics, or a lot of people coming forward with a loud enough voice to force the change.


I agree with almost all you had to say harmony with this exception. History has proven that the greater numbers of women reporting and following through has changed the process. Believe it or not, women used to be treated even worse in this situation than they are now. A husband could even legally divorce his wife for being raped as she was now "damaged goods". With the countless thousands of women who are raped every single year, you would think our voice could be loud enough. The problem is that women who have never been raped, tend to not want to get on board as it generally makes them have to admit their own vulnerability to themselves....and men are generally even less vocal. We need to as a society, band together, men and women alike and put our collective feet down and demand that we are not going to allow this to continue. I do see just that happening one day....but we are still very early in the process. We have already made great strides if you look back at how this used to be treated. We have a long way to go, but hiding and not reporting...well...if that is how we choose to deal with it then it will never get better. If we take action at least we have a chance of making a difference.....if we take none then there surely won't be a change.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to harmony3709)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 12:36:03 AM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nella

The problem is this. If you castrate a rapist, what do you get? Often theese things are not aboute sex, it is aboute voilence and hurting pepole, they will just find other ways of hurting pepole.


I agree with you, nella. Which is why I am not sure exactly what IS the answer, although if I remember correctly (it's been a while and I am going on memory, not direct quote) several articles I read cited that in some cases, castration also lowered the violent tendencies. But again, I repeat -- I in no way am quoting anything specific, only what I recall reading in several articles on rapists and castration. I believe there have been men who volunteered to have this performed as a way of obtaining a reduced sentence or to show their willingness to be "rehabilitated" or something like that.

harmony

(in reply to nella)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 12:50:21 AM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

But anyone who thinks that more women reporting rape and going through the same motions is somehow going to change the "system" and the way rape victims are treated.........oh please, give me a break. Systems are not typically changed until those in charge are forced to do so. It has to be a politically correct issue, or you have to have people with a financial interest in it use their tactics, or a lot of people coming forward with a loud enough voice to force the change.


I agree with almost all you had to say harmony with this exception. History has proven that the greater numbers of women reporting and following through has changed the process. Believe it or not, women used to be treated even worse in this situation than they are now. A husband could even legally divorce his wife for being raped as she was now "damaged goods". With the countless thousands of women who are raped every single year, you would think our voice could be loud enough. The problem is that women who have never been raped, tend to not want to get on board as it generally makes them have to admit their own vulnerability to themselves....and men are generally even less vocal. We need to as a society, band together, men and women alike and put our collective feet down and demand that we are not going to allow this to continue. I do see just that happening one day....but we are still very early in the process. We have already made great strides if you look back at how this used to be treated. We have a long way to go, but hiding and not reporting...well...if that is how we choose to deal with it then it will never get better. If we take action at least we have a chance of making a difference.....if we take none then there surely won't be a change.


A good point, Erin, in that there has been some change. Unfortunately, when you consider how long rape has been going on.........to compare the current change to a snail's pace would not even be a close description.

I don't think the problem will be solved by just the victims coming forward, although I concede that if a greater number of them did, it might generate some change by bringing it to the attention of the media and general public and so on. Maybe a class action suit against the government representing victims in which the rapists had received guilty verdicts? Might draw it to the attention of the media and the attention of the legislature. I'm not suggesting this as necessarily a realistic possibility, just pointing out that I think it's going to take something "big" to draw the attention of the media, general public, and legislature.

harmony

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 1:53:15 AM   
brightspot


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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 3:08:20 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Rape have always happend, and will always happen. For voilence, power, sex drive, misunderstanding, anger, hate or whatever the reason in the current situation, there will always be pepole that force themself on others. Now let us look at rape in the court, it IS extremly hard to prove if the girl do not go to the doctor streight away, and there IS also not that uncommon for one to wake up after an casual sexual encounter, regret what have been done and call rape. The justice system also have to make sure not to many inocents are taken down together whit the guilty. Becouse not every woman that say they have been raped, have been raped. Often there is no proof, and there is word against word, and then the court must deside, and then there will be many questions, becouse it is not a good thing to send men, and woman to jail for rape that have not done it.


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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 5:42:04 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

just pointing out that I think it's going to take something "big" to draw the attention of the media, general public, and legislature.


Well you're right it is, which is why I make sure I know how perspective government leaders in my state stand on the issue BEFORE I cast my ballot. I also let them know EXACTLY how I feel about it. We can all use our voice, write letters, make phone calls, attend functions that speak out affiliate ourselves with organizations that work toward the goal. The only way that changes are ever made on any issue is with effort. Apathy will surely get us nowhere.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to harmony3709)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 5:09:58 PM   
MsElle


Posts: 20
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

quote:

There are ways to protect yourself from being fucked when you are not wanting it, and they all involve not being an idiot.


To insinuate that 'not being an idiot' will magically prevent you from being raped not only puts the responsibility for a rape sqarely on the victim, which is bullshit, but it makes it somehow seem that rape happens because the victim did something dumb. Again, bullshit.

There are, of course, actions and precautions that lessen ones risk of being violently attacked, but to make it seem like you can prevent being raped by not being an idiot is like saying if you are a safe driver you can prevent being broadsided by a drunk who plows through a red light. It doesn't work that way.

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
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RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 5:40:36 PM   
MadameDahlia


Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709


quote:

ORIGINAL: nella

The problem is this. If you castrate a rapist, what do you get? Often theese things are not aboute sex, it is aboute voilence and hurting pepole, they will just find other ways of hurting pepole.


I agree with you, nella. Which is why I am not sure exactly what IS the answer, although if I remember correctly (it's been a while and I am going on memory, not direct quote) several articles I read cited that in some cases, castration also lowered the violent tendencies. But again, I repeat -- I in no way am quoting anything specific, only what I recall reading in several articles on rapists and castration. I believe there have been men who volunteered to have this performed as a way of obtaining a reduced sentence or to show their willingness to be "rehabilitated" or something like that.

harmony


Did it say if the procedure was surgical or chemical? There was a case of someone undergoing chemical castration. He did it to increase chances of parole. After he'd completed the treatments he ordered steroids and other drugs and had them delivered to his home so that he could continue doing what had got him sent to prison.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 6:01:14 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		MadameDahlia this is not directed at you, just merely a reply.

Chemical castration is a crap shoot at best. While it works in some cases, it has been proven to have no effect in others. The group that is seems to work best on are those whose sexual offenses are motivated by sexual urge...as in pedophiles. It does not generally work in the group that your typical rapist falls into, those whose crimes are motivated by anger, power and control or those who blames their crimes on the influence of or addiction to drugs or alcohol. It is also not a true castration and the male taking the chemicals is still a fully functioning male and can have sex as he wishes. It merely lowers the sex drive. Data tracking those who have participated in programs involving chemical castration have shown the results to be varied and generally not the success that was hoped for. The recidivism rates still tend to be very high, as they are with all sexual predators. This is the one group of criminals who do not respond in significant number to rehabilitative efforts.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MadameDahlia)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 7:05:07 PM   
muffinguy69


Posts: 17
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I call it street justice, and all for making him or others like him pay.

(in reply to Alexander)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Rape vengeance. - 4/3/2005 7:42:31 PM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		According to sociologist Dr. Griffen rape is considered the "All-American crime." He says (and I agree) that all of the characteristics of rape are considered good characteristics for an American man to have: strength, power, domination and control.
As long as these characteristics are considered to be proper male characteristics in American society rape will continue to be a problem.

Also, "In rape cases, unlike any other crime, victims must prove their innocence rather then the state having to prove the guilt of the defendent."
Meaning that they victims are considered at fault unless they can prove otherwise, which leads to the next fact, that rape is the most often commited, but least often reported crime in the United States.

In my experience, I was horribly beaten and gang raped multiple times by the same individuals. I went to the police and they refused to believe me. When I at last got someone to listen we went to trial and after a long and humiliating ordeal all six men were let go without punishment.
I was 14, they were all in their late-20's and early 30's.
I know this is personal, but I hope that this helps people to understand where I am coming from.

Rape is not a something that can be "cured" through rehabilitation. Too often rapists walk free and the victim is labeled a liar and a slut.
Often the victim is told to say that the rapist is a "flasher" because he is more likely to get convicted for exposing himself in public then for rape. If a rapist does go to prison he is the lowest in the hierarchy and is often beaten by the other inmates (the only ones lower are "flashers", child molesters and those that commit other sexual crimes toward minors, these are considered "crimes toward the innocent." I don't understand, but this is direct from a group that I talked to at the local prison about these issues so I assume that it is true, at least in some areas).

I'm sorry for such a long post, but this is an issue that I feel very strongly about and I feel that not enough is known about the actual process of "justice" in rape cases.
I, again, recomment the book Lucky to anyone who wants to know what really happens after a rape is commited. The book goes fast and everyone can benefit from reading it.


All facts and statistics from Exploring the Architecture of Everyday Life: Sociology, Fourth Edition by David M. Newman, Chapter 12

(in reply to muffinguy69)
Profile   Post #: 40
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