quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


You are right. I can't speak for others. But if you are going to say that divorce is a bad thing for the UMs involved, then you have to accept that cheating is just as bad for the UMs involved. Therefore, they simply shouldn't be a factor because both suck utterly. You can't say that cheating is better for your kids.

i never said that - i said kids who come from divorce don't fare as well as kids from intact families. 

I do feel that at least divorce teaches honesty and owning up to when things won't work instead of showing that deception solves problems. 

Divorce also teaches that when things get tough, you throw in the towel. It might even teach them that their parents put their own needs above theirs.  It could convey so many things to a child, not JUST what you suggested.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
No matter what reasons you claim that make you so damn noble, you are probably going to caught and then you are going to lose it all anyway. Including a lot of respect.

i can think of many instances where respect will be lost much more so - like apathetic spouses who abandon their "cherished one".  And what about the vow of "till death do us part" - this "vow" doesn't count?? That may mean something to some people.  Maybe more then being a cheat, maybe keeping that vow intact is more important to them, living up to their word, keeping their family intact is important - and in the middle of all that insanity in trying to keep their sanity they search what is NOT forthcoming at home elsewhere. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


You are right. I can't speak for others. But if you are going to say that divorce is a bad thing for the UMs involved, then you have to accept that cheating is just as bad for the UMs involved. Therefore, they simply shouldn't be a factor because both suck utterly. You can't say that cheating is better for your kids.

i never said that - i said kids who come from divorce don't fare as well as kids from intact families. 
 

 
Intact families are not hinged on lies. Families with cheating spouses are. These are shams of a family that will tumble like a house of cards when a strong wind boths. If they are lucky then they may be able to form a family again, just as some divorced parents reconcile but it will not happen until everyone is honest.
 

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I do feel that at least divorce teaches honesty and owning up to when things won't work instead of showing that deception solves problems. 

Divorce also teaches that when things get tough, you throw in the towel. It might even teach them that their parents put their own needs above theirs.  It could convey so many things to a child, not JUST what you suggested.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Intact families are not families that hinge on deception. Intact families are not hinged on a "little white lie" that Daddy or Mommy are being faithful.

Intact family just means daddy and mommy and UM's altogether under one roof.  Why do the UM's have to be involved in the parents relationship at all?  This sounds rather co-dependant to me - like the mom or dad who uses it (the cheating) to gain favor with the child to go against the other parent - that's  manipulation and abuse.

Like I've already said - abandoning your spouse is bad. It's probably just as bad as cheating. But guess what? That doesn't make your cheating any better. You made the choice to put your dick somewhere else or take someone else's. You could have tried therapy. You could have tried a lot of things. I really don't give a shit how bad your spouse is. You are making the choice to stay with them.

Why do you assume in all cases many, if not all alternatives, were tried and failed.  You keep reiterating "you are making the choice to stay with them" i will counter that with - some circumstances are such that that IS the only viable choice you can make at the time given the circumstances you find yourself in. Just as much as they are making the choice to abandon your needs.  And in some cases the choice to leave is the wrong choice - use your imagination and i am sure you can come up with some. Some were already stated.

They may be a bad person but that doesn't make you a saint beyond reproach.

i am not looking to make anyone involved a saint or a sinner - i don't view life with those kinds of glasses.  We are all dealt a hand in life - we all come to the table with different experiences, abilities, cultures, past baggage, values, etc - i have only worn my own "shoes of life" so how can i judge your path not having worn "your shoes"

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Intact families are not families that hinge on deception. Intact families are not hinged on a "little white lie" that Daddy or Mommy are being faithful.

Intact family just means daddy and mommy and UM's altogether under one roof.  Why do the UM's have to be involved in the parents relationship at all?  This sounds rather co-dependant to me - like the mom or dad who uses it (the cheating) to gain favor with the child to go against the other parent - that's  manipulation and abuse.
 

 
The relationship between the parents does affect the child. By intact I assumed you meant healthy and loving. I will not assume so in the future. I have heard no stats on an unhappy and unhealthy yet "intact" family group being better for a child.

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Like I've already said - abandoning your spouse is bad. It's probably just as bad as cheating. But guess what? That doesn't make your cheating any better. You made the choice to put your dick somewhere else or take someone else's. You could have tried therapy. You could have tried a lot of things. I really don't give a shit how bad your spouse is. You are making the choice to stay with them.

Why do you assume in all cases many, if not all alternatives, were tried and failed. 
 

I'm not saying they were tried. I'm saying that they should be tried before one resorts to either divorce or cheating. If you give it all you can then I can at least somewhat understand your decision to cheat. If you don't, then why should I believe that you are anything more then a horndog?
 

quote:


You keep reiterating "you are making the choice to stay with them" i will counter that with - some circumstances are such that that IS the only viable choice you can make at the time given the circumstances you find yourself in.

Living in deception as opposed to being an adult and dealing with your circumstances is such admirable behavior. Yes there are a few circumstances. However, I simply can not believe it's so common. If you fear losing your kids or whatnot, exactly what do you think the judge is going to say when you are caught cheating? Things are going to be even worse.

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Just as much as they are making the choice to abandon your needs.  And in some cases the choice to leave is the wrong choice - use your imagination and i am sure you can come up with some. Some were already stated.

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There are some. But let's be honest - most of the people just want pussy on the side. And then there are the serial cheaters. You know, the guy who marries a woman, is happy for ten years, then starts cheating, divorces and marries the hot new thing. Rinse, lather, repeat. Why is it so hard for you to accept that some people, if most, who cheat are just assholes who don't want to be mutually responsible in dealing with their relationship problems?

Emontional abandonment of a spouse is generally not a one sided thing. There is blame on both sides.

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They may be a bad person but that doesn't make you a saint beyond reproach.

i am not looking to make anyone involved a saint or a sinner - i don't view life with those kinds of glasses.  We are all dealt a hand in life - we all come to the table with different experiences, abilities, cultures, past baggage, values, etc - i have only worn my own "shoes of life" so how can i judge your path not having worn "your shoes"

Having walked the shoes of both the cheater, the cheatee, and the child of a cheater I feel very secure in saying "Yes. There are problems in your relationship. However, cheating won't make them better. It makes them worse."

Deception does not a good relationship make. No matter how bad someone is treating you, you are making the decision to cheat on them. They may indeed be a beast. But you are not a saint and you still deserve guilt and reproach. They may deserve more guilt but you are still quite deserving of your share.

Barring, of course, the very common coma cases.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to velvetears)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub 
The relationship between the parents does affect the child. By intact I assumed you meant healthy and loving. I will not assume so in the future. I have heard no stats on an unhappy and unhealthy yet "intact" family group being better for a child.
 
The report i read said even if the family unit was dysfunctional it was better for the kids in the long run to have the family unit intact (meaning altogether) then split up in a divorce. 

I'm not saying they were tried. I'm saying that they should be tried before one resorts to either divorce or cheating. If you give it all you can then I can at least somewhat understand your decision to cheat. If you don't, then why should I believe that you are anything more then a horndog?
 
Your entitled to believe anything you want to believe.  (Cheaters = horndogs)is in your book, thats your belief, not mine.  A litte short sighted in my opinion.

Living in deception as opposed to being an adult and dealing with your circumstances is such admirable behavior. Yes there are a few circumstances. However, I simply can not believe it's so common. If you fear losing your kids or whatnot, exactly what do you think the judge is going to say when you are caught cheating? Things are going to be even worse.

i never used the word admirable ever - you are using it now and it sounds a bit like condesention to me - do we have to go there?

There are some. But let's be honest - most of the people just want pussy on the side. And then there are the serial cheaters. You know, the guy who marries a woman, is happy for ten years, then starts cheating, divorces and marries the hot new thing. Rinse, lather, repeat. Why is it so hard for you to accept that some people, if most, who cheat are just assholes who don't want to be mutually responsible in dealing with their relationship problems?

i don't automatically connect with the idea that people who cheat "just want pussy on the side", i am sure this might be the case some of the time, but i think generally that people caught up in cheating are in troubled relationships and not generally happy about the course of events in their lives.  Do you feel better about those who marry 4, 5 maybe 6 to 10 times - oh lets not call them cheaters they are noble and get divorces - forget the fact that they make a mockery out of marriage!

Emontional abandonment of a spouse is generally not a one sided thing. There is blame on both sides.

And your point being??


They may be a bad person but that doesn't make you a saint beyond reproach.

Never said they were saints - never initially used the word ever.

Having walked the shoes of both the cheater, the cheatee, and the child of a cheater I feel very secure in saying "Yes. There are problems in your relationship. However, cheating won't make them better. It makes them worse."

It made them worse FOR YOU.... don't speak for others just cause you have had the experience from three angles. It doesn't make you an expert - only one person out of millions who have had this experience.

Deception does not a good relationship make. No matter how bad someone is treating you, you are making the decision to cheat on them. They may indeed be a beast. But you are not a saint and you still deserve guilt and reproach. They may deserve more guilt but you are still quite deserving of your share.

You'd make a good fire and brimstone preacher lol..... guilt, reproach, blame.... i would rather use words like learn, growth, evolve, change. We simply don't think on the same track....oranges and apples here... let's just leave it at that

Barring, of course, the very common coma cases.

Well of course this is ok if you sanction it as so

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub 
The relationship between the parents does affect the child. By intact I assumed you meant healthy and loving. I will not assume so in the future. I have heard no stats on an unhappy and unhealthy yet "intact" family group being better for a child.
 
The report i read said even if the family unit was dysfunctional it was better for the kids in the long run to have the family unit intact (meaning altogether) then split up in a divorce. 
 

 
I would suspect that report was extremely slanted. Most children I knew growing up were happy to have the yelling stop.
 

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I'm not saying they were tried. I'm saying that they should be tried before one resorts to either divorce or cheating. If you give it all you can then I can at least somewhat understand your decision to cheat. If you don't, then why should I believe that you are anything more then a horndog?
 
Your entitled to believe anything you want to believe.  (Cheaters = horndogs)is in your book, thats your belief, not mine.  A litte short sighted in my opinion.

 
If it wouldn't be too difficult of you to note, I've already stated (repeatedly) that there are situations where I wouldn't really regard it as cheating. However, I've seen time and time again that it wasn't that.

quote:


Living in deception as opposed to being an adult and dealing with your circumstances is such admirable behavior. Yes there are a few circumstances. However, I simply can not believe it's so common. If you fear losing your kids or whatnot, exactly what do you think the judge is going to say when you are caught cheating? Things are going to be even worse.

i never used the word admirable ever - you are using it now and it sounds a bit like condesention to me - do we have to go there?

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I realize you didn't.

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i don't automatically connect with the idea that people who cheat "just want pussy on the side", i am sure this might be the case some of the time, but i think generally that people caught up in cheating are in troubled relationships and not generally happy about the course of events in their lives.  Do you feel better about those who marry 4, 5 maybe 6 to 10 times - oh lets not call them cheaters they are noble and get divorces - forget the fact that they make a mockery out of marriage!
 

 
Yes. At least they are being honest with their partners. People make a mockery of marriage by cheating so that point is invalid.
 

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Emontional abandonment of a spouse is generally not a one sided thing. There is blame on both sides.

And your point being??
 

 
Well your point was that if you emotionally abandon your spouse it's pretty much your fault you got cheated on so...

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They may be a bad person but that doesn't make you a saint beyond reproach.

Never said they were saints - never initially used the word ever.

I realize you didn't say saint. However you are acting as though cheater aren't doing anything wrong and do not deserve any blame.

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Having walked the shoes of both the cheater, the cheatee, and the child of a cheater I feel very secure in saying "Yes. There are problems in your relationship. However, cheating won't make them better. It makes them worse."

It made them worse FOR YOU.... don't speak for others just cause you have had the experience from three angles. It doesn't make you an expert - only one person out of millions who have had this experience.
 

 
And you are an expert?

quote:


Deception does not a good relationship make. No matter how bad someone is treating you, you are making the decision to cheat on them. They may indeed be a beast. But you are not a saint and you still deserve guilt and reproach. They may deserve more guilt but you are still quite deserving of your share.

You'd make a good fire and brimstone preacher lol..... guilt, reproach, blame.... i would rather use words like learn, growth, evolve, change. We simply don't think on the same track....oranges and apples here... let's just leave it at that

Charming dear. Charming. I will not resort to insults however.

Cheaters are doing something wrong. When I was a child I was taught that when you do something wrong, you must accept the punishment. Therefore they should suck it up and accept the blame, the punishment, the bad karma, whatever for what they are doing and stop making excuses. That is all that I have been saying. I don't feel that two wrongs make a right. You do. C'est le vive and let us never enter into a relationship with each other.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to velvetears)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

velvetears -

how does being married multiple times and being happy in those marriages make more of a mockery out of marriage than staying married to the same person but continuously going outside of the relationship for fulfillment and lying to your spouse?

i know i said i was bowing out of the thread, but anytime i hear the words "mockery of a marriage" my ears perk up. sorry. ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

AquaticSub - you are young and with youth comes idealism about many things in life... this isn't a bad thing - actually a much needed one - for if it didn't exixt there would be much less motivation in young people to go out and make the world a better place to live in. i don't want to burst your bubble by any means - Let's have this same discussion in 20 to 30 years... live a bit first, maybe then you can understand more what i have tried and failed obviously, to convey - good luck to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

AquaticSub - you are young and with youth comes idealism about many things in life... this isn't a bad thing - actually a much needed one - for if it didn't exixt there would be much less motivation in young people to go out and make the world a better place to live in. i don't want to burst your bubble by any means - Let's have this same discussion in 20 to 30 years... live a bit first, maybe then you can understand more what i have tried and failed obviously, to convey - good luck to you.