RE: CIAW

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Texy -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 10:04:14 AM)
Interesting thread! Would I cheat? No, I don't even play around in an open relationship. Not because I'm better than anyone, I just know me well enough to know I can't emotionally, mentally and physically handle it, full stop. Do I care if someone else cheats or lies in their relationship? Not at all. It does not impact my life in any way shape or form. We all march to a different drummer, and it's not my place to tell you which drum to march to, nor is it your place to tell me my drummer is a tab off beat [;)] gayle

juliaoceania -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 10:23:23 AM)
IMO there is no correlation between lying to someone and deceiving them nonconsensually and being poly or open or a swinger. Define the word cheat (I ingnored the definition as it pertains to cheating on games) 1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>intransitive verb1 a: to practice fraud or trickery b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>2: to be sexually unfaithful — usually used with on <was cheating on his wife> How can this word ever be used in relation to something in a relationship and be ok?

agirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 10:28:51 AM)
I prefer not to sit in the CIAW camp. I'll admit that I have a problem with absolutes of this kind when applied to human beings, especially in relationships that I'm not privy to. agirl

adaddysgirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 10:54:40 AM)
Well, i don't know who this Dan Savage is, but from this passage, he sounds like a complete moron to me. CIAWs think sex is important? Think sexual exclusivity is important? Think sex is so trivial that a person should be able to go forever without it? Who the hell said all of that???? Most people think sex is important. Most monogamists think sexual exclusivity is important. And gawd only knows who said someone should go forever without sex. He isn't talking about CIAWs....he's talking about all different kinds of people. i wonder how he came to lump them under one label? Time and time again i have seen subs say that one of the few things that would cause them to walk away from their partner is lying/dishonesty in the relationship....and isn't that what true cheating is about? i mean....what cheater doesn't lie? If you don't lie, and your partner is aware of it and chooses to stay, then at least he/she was able to make an informed decision with regard to their own life. Cheaters take away that option. Yes, people do make mistakes. Sometimes people get desperate, they get depressed....their partner withholds love/affection/sex so they see no other option but to cheat. It still doesn't make it right but i do have respect for those who have made such mistakes and are willing to say 'No, i don't think it was right to lie to my partner, to cheat on them, to betray their trust, etc', had i thought more about it, i might have done something different, i wouldn't do it again...something to show some remorse for fucking up someone else's life. But i have no respect at all for those that can say yeh, i did it, and that's the way it goes. And let's not forget that not all cheaters cheat because they aren't getting something at home that their partner is well aware of and still withholds from them. No....there are plenty of guys who sneak around behind their partners' backs just for the thrill of it...or to get a little 'strange'....and their partner has no clue there is something amiss. The part about cheating that is wrong is the whole dishonesty/betrayal thing. And i don't know how anyone can think that's just okay to do to another person. It is about morals....and it's about having a conscience. It's about having regard for other people's lives. It's about self respect and keeping a promise you made. There is just so much to it that i don't see how anyone can do it then just blow it off like it's an okay thing to do. Even many swingers follow particular protocol (ie, we only swing together or with the other person's knowledge)....and even many polys have similar protocol within their own groups. But when someone steps outside of those arrangements/agreements and has to lie about it, then they are cheating because the other is not aware or has not consented/agreed to those other liaisons. Again, i can see where people make mistakes...or they act out of desperation....and they realize it was not the right thing to do....but for someone to truly be able to say there is nothing wrong with cheating......i can't imagine that person having a conscience of any sort. Who could ever trust them? And personal integrity probably means nothing to them at all. DG

adaddysgirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 11:11:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl My parents have been married for 50 yrs, they have just had their 51st wedding anniversary and wrote poems to each other in their cards. They have their ups and downs and sometimes irritate the hell out of each other. They worry about each other, they grumble about each other and they most clearly care for and love each other.. They have five children that love them both very much, hoards of grandchildren and 4 great-grandchildren all of whom visit and love them too. They're the hub of our large and happy family. My father has gone away every weekend for as long as I can remember, no-one knows where he goes, no-one asks, though we speculate sometimes in a lighthearted way that he has another woman. It's possible, perhaps even likely. I've asked Mum what she'd think and feel if he had ? Her answer was that if it was so, it hadn't affected her life. She likes her weekends of being alone, having time to herself and chilling in the way she wants to without Dad being around. She doesn't spend a second fretting about what he might be up to because she has a happy and secure life. She wouldn't thank him for being open and honest, she wouldn't think him particularly honourable to end the life that she's content in..........If he has someone else, she's glad that he's kept it to himself and kept THEIR life intact and happy. Basically, if he's cheated, she doesn't feel cheated on. And if he has.......I respect him far more for staying and being dishonourable that I would if he'd buggered off. People arrange their lives in many different ways and I've seen too many sides to cheating, to say that CIAW. agirl i don't think this is at all what we are talking about here, really. First of all, your dad could be doing anything on those weekends. He could be completely celibate and just enjoying some time away from all the noise. Maybe he needs some solitude. Or yes, maybe he does see someone else (although i find it hard to imagine even a mistress on the side agreeing to weekends only for 50 years). Or who knows...maybe he sees a pro-domme, gets some kinks out of his system, then goes home all revived. Sounds like nobody knows for sure. But whatever the case is, this is something your mom has agreed to....and she just doesn't want to know what he's doing. This is much different than someone sneaking around behind their partner's back, no? i mean, what if your mother was a different type of person? What if they screamed and fought every time he left and every time he came home because she thought he was with someone else and she wasn't going for that? What if you kids had to grow up with a mom who was an emotional wreck every weekend of your lives because of your father's 'trips'....and then had to listen to the same exact arguments every week? Might not have been such a wonderful home life, would it? Sounds like your father could have his cake and eat it too....and that is alright with your mom as long as she doesn't 'know'....i have heard of similar arrangements. And if that works for them, great. But i don't see how that anywhere near resembles a cheater who sneaks around behind his partner's back, lies about it, and knows he's deceiving his partner. Sounds quite different to me. DG

SusanofO -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 11:30:19 AM)
I do think the revulsion factor has to do with the whole feeling of being betrayed, maybe, and that is why it turns so many stomachs, which is understandable (to me). As a concept, or a reality, betrayal isn't attractive, on the whole for most folks, would be my guess. But I think there are folks who've made some sort of "silent agreement" sometimes, in their relationships maybe, even if they haven't openly discussed being cheated on, or not, (and maybe even if their partner is doing it), because they perceive other areas of the relationship to be satisfactory, or especially if they have children maybe, and-or just so angry about their partner cheating that they figure they are not going to run their bank account low by hiring divorce attorneys, when they could just as easily stay in the relationship, and not go through all of the gut wrenching discussion, paperwork and arguing, and possible financial devastation that surrounds a divorce. They make a "trade-off". And if it works for them, I can't really say I care. My sister is a divorce attorney, and she sees plenty of potential clients like this, who for some reason or other decide to not divorce. There is more than one lady like this in my woman's group, and she is fine with her relationship now, and it appears to work like that (maybe she wasn't at first, but she is now). It's not exacly an "open relationship" in the sense that she has another partner, but I think if she wanted one, she'd probably get one (and maybe discreet about it). Or maybe she'd talk to her partner about it, I dunno. My impression of the feelings operating in that situation are: He (or she) is cheating on me, and he therefore "owes" me, and I am not gonna get migraines or face possible financial ruin going through a gut-wrenching divorce, when I could just as easily stay and maybe just try to learn to not let it not bother me as much, because now, more than ever, I see myself as having more freedom to "do my thing" simply because I have more "leverage" in the relationship than I did before, to do what I want to do. I can see where these might not always be considered ideal marital circumstances by some, but I have seen more than one couple who has managed to make a situation like that work, and not go crazy in the process, and be relatively content (or else they really would have left, at least that has been my impression). - Susan

juliaoceania -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 11:34:06 AM)
Susan, I do not think that if there is some tacit "don't ask, don't tell" agreement between people this is the same as cheating. I do not see it as being a fraud, lying, deceiving to have such a relationship. If someone more or less tells you "I don't wanna know", they have agreed to it. If you tell them and they say nothing and ignore it, they have agreed to the terms of the relationship. But if someone tells you point blank, "If you ever cheated on me I could never trust you again" so you do everything in your power to evade detection... yes, this is cheating.

SusanofO -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 11:44:35 AM)
[:)]Oh,okay, *julia,* I didn't really think you did, (I didn't) I am just sort of in a rambling on mood this morning (Hug).I really am, just in a talky mood today. Not sure where it came from. *general comment*: I think people should do what works for them. Maybe it's because my sister is a divorce attorney, but anymore I think there aren't too many situations I can't conceive of as happening, actually. - Susan

cloudboy -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 12:09:52 PM)
This may sound ageist, but I find a certain commonality between us 40 year olds and views on fidelity and cheating. Its as if we've staked out our own, distinct territory on the subject, based not so much on judgment but our comfort zone with and tolerance of other people. Maybe its because we've learned that a prosecution mentality doesn't really benefit us, make us feel better, or help us in our own relationships.

SusanofO -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 12:12:59 PM)
I hear you. Twenty years ago, I'd never have said any of this, probably. I do also think it has a lot to do with what people go through personally sometimes, and how much they actually end up contemplating it when and if they experience this or that circumstance. I think of the woman who began the MAAD (Mothers agianst drunk driving) and the guy who started the Polly Klass foundation because his daughter was murdered. Maybe a not great example, but same principle. I doubt those folks would have done either of those things, had they not been so personally affected by those circumstances. They might have not even given them much thought, which I do understand. I am not out raising money for breast cancer research, but then again, I've never had it. I know it's a different cirucumstance (and maybe a bad one, now you know why my sister is the attorney, and not me[:D] - Susan

agirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 12:25:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl quote: ORIGINAL: agirl My parents have been married for 50 yrs, they have just had their 51st wedding anniversary and wrote poems to each other in their cards. They have their ups and downs and sometimes irritate the hell out of each other. They worry about each other, they grumble about each other and they most clearly care for and love each other.. They have five children that love them both very much, hoards of grandchildren and 4 great-grandchildren all of whom visit and love them too. They're the hub of our large and happy family. My father has gone away every weekend for as long as I can remember, no-one knows where he goes, no-one asks, though we speculate sometimes in a lighthearted way that he has another woman. It's possible, perhaps even likely. I've asked Mum what she'd think and feel if he had ? Her answer was that if it was so, it hadn't affected her life. She likes her weekends of being alone, having time to herself and chilling in the way she wants to without Dad being around. She doesn't spend a second fretting about what he might be up to because she has a happy and secure life. She wouldn't thank him for being open and honest, she wouldn't think him particularly honourable to end the life that she's content in..........If he has someone else, she's glad that he's kept it to himself and kept THEIR life intact and happy. Basically, if he's cheated, she doesn't feel cheated on. And if he has.......I respect him far more for staying and being dishonourable that I would if he'd buggered off. People arrange their lives in many different ways and I've seen too many sides to cheating, to say that CIAW. agirl i don't think this is at all what we are talking about here, really. First of all, your dad could be doing anything on those weekends. He could be completely celibate and just enjoying some time away from all the noise. Maybe he needs some solitude. Or yes, maybe he does see someone else (although i find it hard to imagine even a mistress on the side agreeing to weekends only for 50 years). Or who knows...maybe he sees a pro-domme, gets some kinks out of his system, then goes home all revived. Sounds like nobody knows for sure. But whatever the case is, this is something your mom has agreed to....and she just doesn't want to know what he's doing. This is much different than someone sneaking around behind their partner's back, no? i mean, what if your mother was a different type of person? What if they screamed and fought every time he left and every time he came home because she thought he was with someone else and she wasn't going for that? What if you kids had to grow up with a mom who was an emotional wreck every weekend of your lives because of your father's 'trips'....and then had to listen to the same exact arguments every week? Might not have been such a wonderful home life, would it? Sounds like your father could have his cake and eat it too....and that is alright with your mom as long as she doesn't 'know'....i have heard of similar arrangements. And if that works for them, great. But i don't see how that anywhere near resembles a cheater who sneaks around behind his partner's back, lies about it, and knows he's deceiving his partner. Sounds quite different to me. DG When I say, as long as I can remember, I'm talking about the last 30 yrs, I can't remember him going away before I left home. She hasn't agreed to anything. She hasn't asked. She doesn't know. Giving him his space doesn't mean she's given her approval. If she asked him, I've no doubt that he would lie. Of course it's different........if he HAS had other relationships,( it's fairly probable) he hasn't wrecked his homelife, our homelife or Mum's life. If you think cheating is cheating is cheating .....it's all the same, surely? Perhaps one kind of cheating is better than another kind?. Perhaps it's not cheating if your wife doesn't actually ask?. agirl

DoctorDubious -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 12:26:37 PM)
My take on all this stuff is this.... What we are talking about here is each person's values... .... which to me means "what's important about _______" .... Some people place higher value on freedom than security, some think security is far more important. Some couples (but not many) can live successfully with one partner fucking around... some with both fucking around, and mostly people want exclusive dibs on their partner/spouse/whatever. Why are some people so "territorial" and others not? My sense is that's better left for the philosophers. DD PS.... Dan Savage is NOT a dummy. He writes (in my opinion) the best sex advice column ever done. But, taken in isolation, without context, anything written can appear ignorant.

adaddysgirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 12:53:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *When I say, as long as I can remember, I'm talking about the last 30 yrs, I can't remember him going away before I left home.* Well, okay, 30 years. It was hard to tell based on 'as long as i can remember'. She hasn't agreed to anything. She hasn't asked. She doesn't know. Giving him his space doesn't mean she's given her approval. If she asked him, I've no doubt that he would lie. But she actually has agreed....merely by requiring no explanation. She has agreed to him coming and going with no questions asked....and if he is seeing someone else, she has chosen not to know about it. If people don't ask, they obviously don't want to know....and that makes them accepting of not knowing....and whatever it is he's not telling them about. Some people want to preserve what they have, at any cost, so they 'turn a blind eye'. There are some people who know their partner is cheating, yet they stay for kids, or money, or whatever. That is a conscious choice they made. i have nothing against that arrangement if everyone involved is getting their needs met in some way. Of course it's different........if he HAS had other relationships,( it's fairly probable) he hasn't wrecked his homelife, our homelife or Mum's life. If you think cheating is cheating is cheating .....it's all the same, surely? i don't think it's cheating when one knows what's going on (or the possibility of it) and is content with that (obviously, if they didn't agree they wouldn't feel very content). Perhaps one kind of cheating is better than another kind?. Perhaps it's not cheating if your wife doesn't actually ask?. Cheating isn't the same as non-monogamy or an open marriage where the parties are aware something is going on and allow it, or don't care, or whatever. If the wife doesn't want to know (by not asking), and she is satisfied with that, then that is up to her. But i haven't heard one person here refer their partner as a cheater if they knew what they were doing and agreed to it. i really think you are missing my point about the agreement thing. DG

justheather -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 1:02:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Maybe its because we've learned that a prosecution mentality doesn't really benefit us, make us feel better, or help us in our own relationships. I love you how just slide this in. So that means people who believe in honesty have a prosecution mentality? Or does that mean that those of us who are under forty just havent lived long enough to realize from the kinds of experiences you wiser forty year olds have had that it's perfectly fine to lie to, cheat and betray people you profess to love and to whom you have made public vows of fidelity? Maybe what really happened, cloudboy, is you just got better at rationalizing behaviors that bring you short-term satisfaction and would rather not wrestle with a conscience that tells you that there is something inherently wrong with intentionally behaving in a way that places yourself, your pereceived needs and your freedom over the wants, needs and desires of the people to whom you have made commitments. I reject the entire question as to whether "cheating is always wrong" as it is presented here because basically it is asking not is cheating wrong and bad but is it "sometimes right and good?" And I dont believe it is either always wrong or sometimes right and good.

justheather -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 1:05:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I hear you. Twenty years ago, I'd never have said any of this, probably. I do also think it has a lot to do with what people go through personally sometimes, and how much they actually end up contemplating it when and if they experience this or that circumstance. I think of the woman who began the MAAD (Mothers agianst drunk driving) and the guy who started the Polly Klass foundation because his daughter was murdered. Maybe a not great example, but same principle. I doubt those folks would have done either of those things, had they not been so personally affected by those circumstances. They might have not even given them much thought, which I do understand. I am not out raising money for breast cancer research, but then again, I've never had it. I know it's a different cirucumstance (and maybe a bad one, now you know why my sister is the attorney, and not me[:D] - Susan Susan, I have to agree that the examples you offer here are very much "not great".

GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 1:14:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dnomyar If any of you people really had any Morals you would not be on this site. Your all into some type of preversion. Quit being hypocrites Perversion has nothing to do with dishonesty.

agirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 1:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *When I say, as long as I can remember, I'm talking about the last 30 yrs, I can't remember him going away before I left home.* Well, okay, 30 years. It was hard to tell based on 'as long as i can remember'. She hasn't agreed to anything. She hasn't asked. She doesn't know. Giving him his space doesn't mean she's given her approval. If she asked him, I've no doubt that he would lie. But she actually has agreed....merely by requiring no explanation. She has agreed to him coming and going with no questions asked....and if he is seeing someone else, she has chosen not to know about it. If people don't ask, they obviously don't want to know....and that makes them accepting of not knowing....and whatever it is he's not telling them about. Some people want to preserve what they have, at any cost, so they 'turn a blind eye'. There are some people who know their partner is cheating, yet they stay for kids, or money, or whatever. That is a conscious choice they made. i have nothing against that arrangement if everyone involved is getting their needs met in some way. Of course it's different........if he HAS had other relationships,( it's fairly probable) he hasn't wrecked his homelife, our homelife or Mum's life. If you think cheating is cheating is cheating .....it's all the same, surely? i don't think it's cheating when one knows what's going on (or the possibility of it) and is content with that (obviously, if they didn't agree they wouldn't feel very content). Perhaps one kind of cheating is better than another kind?. Perhaps it's not cheating if your wife doesn't actually ask?. Cheating isn't the same as non-monogamy or an open marriage where the parties are aware something is going on and allow it, or don't care, or whatever. If the wife doesn't want to know (by not asking), and she is satisfied with that, then that is up to her. But i haven't heard one person here refer their partner as a cheater if they knew what they were doing and agreed to it. i really think you are missing my point about the agreement thing. DG I don't think I'm missing your point at all. Cheating is what he is doing. By NOT gaining my Mum's approval, by NOT having her agreement, by NOT telling her clearly, openly and honestly......... He is cheating. If she KNEW he was, she'd be very hurt. She may not ask what he does when he's away .........but that is not anything like giving her approval to infidelity. If he does not have her approval, he is cheating on her. Whether cheating is bad is a different matter. agirl

heartfeltsub -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 1:17:27 PM)
Just for the record, i am over 40 -- 47 to be exact and i don't think that cheating is all right, the dishonesty hurts the relationship and the people in it. heartfelt

SusanofO -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 1:20:16 PM)
heather: Maybe there is better way for this topic to evolve, and maybe it does need to be agreed upon (it was a lil' extreme as an example, in retrospect). He does have an open relationship, and his wife knows all about it, and she has her own partner, too, so he really isn't rationalizing much, IMO he just is basically what I view as Poly. He's talked about that here a few times before. But I don't honestly believe he meant to insult to anyone (that's the problem w/the intenet, there is zero way to gauge things like affect, and true intent in some posts. But you'd maybe have to know him a little better to believe that. Trust me, he'd not intentionally insult many folks, and my impression is he's a pretty peaceful guy. I would personally stake a lot on believing that he didn't mean anything he said as a personal insult, to anyone. Nor was I insinuating monogamy, and faithfulness are not worthy goals or realities. Not at all (I am sorry if anything I said came off that way). My take: I think he feels it can sometimes be a lot lonelier out there for folks who've had to face a situation re: What to do about a partner who isn't interested in bdsm at all. There have been threads on this here, but not that many, and the ones I've seen rarely tell people in much detail how to cope with the situation, and how weird people who are in that situation can sometimes feel about it all (and maybe guilty too) before they finally come to terms with it. I really do think that was maybe his point in introducing the thread, and he wanted maybe to see where it went and how it would develop, and was hoping perhaps some who'd been in those circumstances would write in. And every time (I've seen) there has been a thread on this topic, it has seemed there is an overhwelming number of folks who can't envision any circumstance why anyone would be tempted to cheat - because they rarely offer personal examples from their own lives, or at least a lot more rarely, regardless of whether they'd do it themselves, or not. Some do, not many. I am not referring to you (and I mean no offense, I honestly don't.) I really do think faithfulness and communciation in a relationship are very worthy goals. I am saying for a bdsm website, the idea there might not be people who can even understand there could be circumstances where it's tempting to cheat, is one that has always striked me as slightly strange, considering they can envison tying someone up and whipping them or doing things like "play" rape, for example. I don't feel particularly ostracized by these folks, but my circumstances were a little peculiar, too, maybe. I think this thread in some ways has made progress, as far as that goes. Also, I am not in charge of other folks' opinions, and people really have a right to their own. But if you take a long look at that other thread on here titled "married" - the poor OP asked a very specific question, and got almost zero folks who actually ever answered it. It was truly amazing to read. People took it almost completely as a referendum on espousing thier own viewpoint that CIAW, when this gal was looking for people to simply say they've been there, too, and maybe offer some advice on how they handled that situation for themseves. For the most part, though, that isn't what she got (she did from a few, but not many). She probably really could have used it, too, I'd guess. - Susan

meatcleaver -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 1:21:20 PM)
Cheating is always right but beware, getting even is always right too. If you dump on someone, don't complain when someone dumps on you. However, dont't feel guilty, just enjoy yourself while you can. I've been on both sides ans I have to admit, I found getting even more enjoyable than cheating but I guess thast must be the sadist in me.[:D]

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