RE: CIAW

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BlkTallFullfig -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:41:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy LTRs are tricky. I've never been cheated on, but part of that goes to the fact that I make it somewhat easy for my partner to communicate with me I believe I do too, except communicating doesn't mean there won't be consequences to behavior that I consider disrespecful and hurtful. quote: Whatever my partner does, I want to understand it first. Me too. [:D] quote: The way I see it, not everything my partner does is a reflection of me or our relationship. In my world, every person deserves some private, individual space --- and long as my relationship is good --- I accept that and the other person's individuality. This has been a part of my growing up; allowing for everyone in a relationship to have time to himself, and interaction on his own is something I aim for; but I'd rather he go out with good friends (preferably male hetero), talk, have drinks, hike, camp, come back home without having put penis, tongue, or any other body part into anyone else. quote: To some degree, playing the cheating card is an excercise in monopoly and narcisism. (AKA, if everything isn't all about me, something's wrong.) I'm a dominant seeking a submissive or better yet a slave. Need I explain further, lol? quote: O, and last thing, I don't let others take advantage of me. In general life is good. Life is better, in my opinion, not being in the CIAW camp. Its more honest, its more open, its more forgiving, and it involves more freedom. I'm glad to hear life is good on your side, it is for me too on most days.[;)] If I were born on a different day, and maybe had different parents, I might see monogamy as an exercise in futility as long term relationships go; but I've been a witness to many years in a good relationship filled with trust, care, and love. The thing in life is that we all make the choices we can best live with in relative peace and comfort. I've learned that life is complicated, and can't always point finger and call "sinner" because someone makes what I would consider an error in judgement and breaks out of what I believe to be my comfort zone. Still, I can't imagine I will ever get comfortable/complacent enough to accept my man betraying me in such an intimate way. M

Quivver -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl I am judging them for trying to convince people that to cheat was ok. I havent read the last 5 pages or so, but I cant say I ever noticed anyone trying to convince that cheating was ok. What I've seen is many of us know there is alot more gray out there then you seem to be aware of. Shit happens, life goes on.

MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:47:04 PM)
yes I am guilty of cheating. Thought I was in love (it was lust), got caught eventually and lost my husband, home and all our friends. I still regret fcking up my 14 year marriage. My husband was a really nice guy (and just too easy to cuckold). I never remarried and never had childen. 10 years later I am too old to have kids, which breaks my heart CIAW? Yes, because I think it hurt me more than anyone else. If we had problems in our marriage, we should have talked about it, split up amicably and moved on. Cheating was a stupid thing to do to myself Even if your partner never discovers your dishonesty, you* will know you are a cheat. Being a liar hurts yourself. Doing the right thing is the only way to feel good about yourself as a human being. I believe there is one kind of cheating that is not wrong. Prostitution. Worlds Oldest Profession serves a useful purpose in society and exists for a reason. Unless you are taking food out of the mouths of your starving children, go pay an honest price for sex and don't tell anyone. Its morally beter than getting emotionally involved with third parties (with no intention of leaving your cuckolded spouse) to get free sex.

toye -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:51:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl Or you just become weaker and more desensitized to the immoral things people do. And obviously your argument doesn't hold water since many older ladies have contributed to this thread and said the same things that Aquatic and I are saying. And many haven't [:D] ==================== I've been watching this unfold, and since age was mentioned, I am going to give my opinion. I'm 55 years old - have been in long-term (20 years of slavery for the first one) and short-term monogamous relationships and poly relationships within the D/s and M/s lifestyle since my late teens. I've been cheated on and forgave him, and he turned right around and did it again with someone else. Apparently he saw my forgiveness as tacit approval to tear my heart out whenever he chose to shove his dick into someone - the odd thing is, I'd expressed my curiosity about polyamory (or even swinging) within that then-monogamous relationship, and HE said no. I have no respect for those who have so little concern for honesty. I will not associate with anyone who thinks lying and doing emotional harm is perfectly acceptable. I have better things to do with my time and energy, and I sure don't want my children to believe that behavior is acceptable. Be a man or a woman, stand up and do the right thing..try to talk out and work out problems, and if they're too huge to fix? Have some damn integrity and honor (we value those, remember?) and DISENGAGE so your partner can move on and so you can have your fun time/get your needs met/have strange sex with someone else. Like it or not, not only the moral majority disapproves of cheating. Most people who require trust, do. Bringing up age or relationship "term limits" as adequate reasoning for not accepting what is unacceptable, is a really lame argument.

GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:52:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl So you'd be tolerant of someone cheating on their diet, though? Nope. Still wrong. I was guilty but it was still wrong. That's the point I'm making...People are accusing us of judging them for cheating and we are NOT. We are judging them for trying to say that cheating is ok and justify it. Wrong is wrong. Don't try to make it "sometimes right."

GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:56:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl I am judging them for trying to convince people that to cheat was ok. I havent read the last 5 pages or so, but I cant say I ever noticed anyone trying to convince that cheating was ok. What I've seen is many of us know there is alot more gray out there then you seem to be aware of. Shit happens, life goes on. Actually quivver, that is exactly what was discussed. The original discussion was about "cheating is always wrong". Some people said NO, cheating is NOT always wrong which means that SOMETIMES cheating is ok. That is where several of us had an argument. All of us understand that sometimes shit happens. However, you should not try to justify and say that what you did was "ok" because of x,y, or z. Just say "Yes, cheating is always wrong even though I've done it". That's the base of this discussion, hence the title "CIAW" aka "cheating is always wrong." SEVERAL people have said that cheating is not always wrong and I disagree with that. Cheating doesn't make you a bad person but cheating IS wrong to me no matter what reasons you had.

SusanofO -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:57:04 PM)
Geekygirl: Those were truly horrible circumstances. I would probably have been very tempted to cheat, and maybe even have done it, had I been in them, personally, and I can't think of too many folks whose opinion I really respect who might not have found it at least understandable if you had seriously considered it an option (but I can't say for sure, I haven't been there, in your exact shoes). Frankly I see those as pretty severe extenuating circumstances (I am not sure I'd have had time or energy to cheat under those circumstances, I might have been pretty damned worn out by them). It is just plain something I consider a personal decision. - Susan

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 2:58:37 PM)
quote: i totally agree - with age and experience one simply see more of life and this makes us more open, compassionate and forgiving. Being about honesty within a relationship, and rejecting acceptability of extreme lies and betrayal have little to do with age, or presence of compassion. I dare say that most of us who say cheating is wrong are very compassionate people, and are loyal/intense lovers. The age thing works either way... Many people change with age because of many reasons; among them increased open mindedness, and decrease in options for marriage/long-term/monogamy/etc. I'm very compassionate and forgiving. I'm practically best friends with the only man who ever cheated on me... He still got kicked to the curb though, as we were never able to successfully find our way back to the place we once were; not because I couldn't forgive him, but more because neither of us could trust each other any longer. In his defense, I did promise to probably pay him back by doing the same at some point. M

velvetears -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:00:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl So please don't act like I'm too young to understand what happens within marriages. i never said that, anyone no matter what age, if they get married knows what happens in marriage. Age brings things into a different perspective is all i said. i am sorry for your experience and am glad you got out of that situation. It gave you strength to not succumb, thats your very valuable experience and i am happy for you. But just because others may have reacted differently doesn't make them any less of a person or "wrong" - just human. If I could survive MY marriage without cheating, I have very little tolerance for others who cannot do the same. Sounds like sitting on a high horse to me. Listen to this and tell me what you think - If i could diet and loose weight without cheating on my diet i have very little tolerance for those who cannot do the same - see how that sounds?? Kinda harsh [&o]

agirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:01:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl quote: ORIGINAL: agirl So you'd be tolerant of someone cheating on their diet, though? Nope. Still wrong. I was guilty but it was still wrong. That's the point I'm making...People are accusing us of judging them for cheating and we are NOT. We are judging them for trying to say that cheating is ok and justify it. Wrong is wrong. Don't try to make it "sometimes right." LOL.........well,yes. There's wrong.....and theres WRONG....... like...... There's murdering your sexual partners and storing their body parts in 40 gallon drums ............. And there's sneaking a Big Mac, when you're supposed to be on a diet.... They're both wrong .........but they're a kind of different wrong.....wouldn't you say? agirl

GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:01:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Geekygirl: Those were truly horrible circumstances. I would probably have cheated had I been in them, personally, and I can't think of too many folks whose opinion I really respect who might not have found it at least understandable if you had. Frankly I see tose as pretty sever extenuatin circumstances (but I also don't know all of the details, and I wans't there). Plus, it is just plain something I consider a personal decision. - Susan I see what you are saying (and by the way, despite disagreeing with you in this thread, I have tons of respect for you and think you are a good person). I think you said something earlier about personal situations affecting your beliefs. As you can see, I went through a fairly severe situation and maintained my loyalty, therefore it is very hard for me to understand why other people can't do the same.

domiguy -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:01:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl So you'd be tolerant of someone cheating on their diet, though? This how people conduct an "argument" you take the term cheating in regards to a diet...Which the only person you hurt is yourself and believe you are "scoring points." You are smater than this.

GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:04:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears . i never said that, anyone no matter what age, if they get married knows what happens in marriage. Age brings things into a different perspective is all i said. i am sorry for your experience and am glad you got out of that situation. It gave you strength to not succumb, thats your very valuable experience and i am happy for you. But just because others may have reacted differently doesn't make them any less of a person or "wrong" - just human. Sounds like sitting on a high horse to me. Listen to this and tell me what you think - If i could diet and loose weight without cheating on my diet i have very little tolerance for those who cannot do the same - see how that sounds?? Kinda harsh [&o] I never said it made them less of a person. I said it just meant that that committed an action that was morally wrong. We all do it...but we shouldn't justify it. When is screw up, I say I screwed up not "well I didn't really screw up because of _____". And as for the dieting analogy, what you said might be harsh but it's true, so I don't have a problem with it.I do not lie about my faults...I am weak when it comes to food. I do not try to justify that.

AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:05:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub That's just as a rather bold statement Yes, and you fit the model rather nicely; young and stridently CIAW. That doesn't answer a valid question. How is removing the right to informed consent for sexual activity honest?

velvetears -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:08:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toye Bringing up age or relationship "term limits" as adequate reasoning for not accepting what is unacceptable, is a really lame argument. Sorry but go back and actually READ the thread - that wasn't my argument. Sorry for your experiences by the way, hope you're doing better now.

candystripper -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:14:25 PM)
Just out of curiosity, if cheating is acceptable ethically, what about the consequences to others? How do You resolve that in Your mind? That they are over-reacting? That they should have expected nothing less? What about the consequences to the one who serves as the "other"? It just seems to me that so much pain inflicted on other P/pl to scratch an itch is wrong. candystripper

Quivver -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:15:43 PM)
Shit happens.... my shit was a husband that didnt know how to close an open window on the computer. Come to find out he was searching for that not so elusive relationship on AFF. I felt a twinge of betrayal being the naive stay at home mom that I was I quickly closed the page. Later that night I signed back on and searched for 5 flippin hours till I found the profile again. I'd never EVER seen a site like AFF, I was facinated and a little pissed. But the relationship was and had been dead for years. I choose to sit back and watch before I left almost a year later. Was his search on AFF successful? I dont know. But I can say that 3 weeks after I left he moved a GF in. Was advertising cheating? I dont know, nor did I care. I found what I had missed in relationships due to his searching after I stumbled onto ALT. I feel he did me a HUGE favor. Life's gray, we never know what tomorrow is going to bring.

velvetears -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:20:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl And as for the dieting analogy, what you said might be harsh but it's true, so I don't have a problem with it.I do not lie about my faults...I am weak when it comes to food. I do not try to justify that. It's sounding more and more like you have very little tolerance for those who aren't as moral and strong as you. i prefer to look at them and say they are at a certain development in their life based on more things then i will ever be aware of - unless i know them really, really well - and even then i won't know a heck of a lot. How many people are you honest with about your involvement in D/s, bdsm, etc - a person such as yourself who values honesty as much as you do must be willing to live it openly. i ask it - you obviously don't have to answer it is a rather personal question, and somehow i doubt i am getting an answer to it at any rate [;)]

SusanofO -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:24:36 PM)
Geekygirl: Well, I am not offended by anything anyone thinks really, about this topic, mostly because I really do think it's a personal decision. For the most part, I think people should just do what they think can live with. I think everyone's personal experiences, the parents they had, the way they were raised, the teachers in school, all of that affects their beliefs. I do think beliefs can change over time, too. Doesn't mean, IMO they do, or have to (but I think they can). - Susan

domiguy -> RE: CIAW (3/13/2007 3:38:49 PM)
SusanofO and cloudboy please respond to post #332.

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