RE: CIAW (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 5:49:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

While I realize this is not on the same level, does this mean it's ok to rape someone if you feel it's morally right?


i'd rather stick to the topic and not discuss or disclose my personal morals or ethics. 


I don't see it as being off topic as it is making a point about a particular argument being used in this topic.



ownedgirlie -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 5:49:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

ownedgirlie - thank you for such a poignant post and for your courage in opening up and discussing this with us.  Yours is a perfect example of what i was trying to convey.  We all try to do what's best and sometimes we succeed and sometimes we don't.  Judging and condemning others does nothing to promote their growth, it only serves to make them conform because they don't want to be sanctioned or possibly ostracised by their families or society.  i am sad that you endured such pain in your marriage but delighted you are so happy now!! 


Thank you, Velvetears.  I have conveyed this part of my past on a thread in the past, but it was quite some time ago.  I thought as long and hard about hitting "Send" this time as I did then.  The thing is, I am no longer concerned what opinions I may receive as a result.  Only my ex-husband, my therapist, my Master and I know the real crux of it all - far more than can be explained in a mere post on a message board.

With pain comes self examination and growth.  I have become the person I am meant to be, and each day I look forward, not back.  My ex-husband continues to create some very big problems for me to contend with, but I deal with each one as I can, and move on..



asubmissiveheart -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 5:49:25 PM)

I agree with this post, many use this lifestyle as an excuse to have no morals.
You can't hide immorality under the guise of BDSM, it does not work that way.



AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 5:52:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

We all have our own values, morals, ethics, etc.... nothing wrong with having standards to live by, all i am advocating is not making blanket statements without knowing all the facts.  There were a few "exceptions to the rule" mentioned by susan and celeste and i am sure there are many more. 

UMs do suffer in a divorce - and i just recenly read in a study that UMs from a broken home don't fare as well as UMs from intact families, even if the union of their parents isn't loving and whole.  How could i ever point a finger at anypne and condem them for being "wrong" when i don't know all the conditions or concequences for their behavior, unless i am willing to take responsibility for the outcome i would keep my mouth shut.  Suppose you condemed someone for cheating, shamed them into confronting their spouse and a divorce ensued, and found out they had an emotionally disturbed child who cubsequently committed suicide - wow, i would not want that on my conscience!  Good luck to those who take that responsibiity on.


But who are you to say that suffering is any worse or great then the suffering of a child who discovers that their parent is cheating and lying?

It took years for me trust my father again after he cheated, years to forgive, years to trust any man, years to care about myself and my relationships again. Hell I started having sex just to see what the big deal was and was gravely dissappointed. It took me years  to trust anything he said and trust anything he taught me.

Yes divorces hurt children. Discovering your parent is a lying cheater hurts just as much. Those who believe otherwise are simply decieving themselves for most situations with the exception of the coma thing.



domiguy -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 5:56:33 PM)

This is one of those conversations that has absoloutely no point....It does not take any bravery to start this thread....It takes much more courage to walk away from it and not participate in wasting any more of my precious brain cells and energies on such a thread.  I guess the only thing that matters to me is that in my relationships there is enough honesty and communication to prevent cheating from being a problem.....For the rest of you I could actually care less.



gooddogbenji -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 5:57:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

While I realize this is not on the same level, does this mean it's ok to rape someone if you feel it's morally right?


If I may ask for clarification?

Is the question "If I were to feel it is okay to rape someone, would I be okay with people doing this?"

If so, then the answer, by default, is "Given those facts, yes, I would be okay with it."  Essentially, it is a truism.  If it's okay, is it okay?

So, what's the real question?

Yours,


benji



Lucius -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:04:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I predict this will quicky turn into an "I'm a better person than you because...." type thread.

quickly....



I'm a better person than all of you because I'm not getting involved in this thread.

In fact, I'm not even reading it all the way to the end.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary House



Wickad -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:07:25 PM)

Well, ... as I seem to be bored in a new city where I know very few people ..... I thought I might wade in on this - lol.

I do not agree with cheating.  I find very few instances (those being partners in a coma or quite ill) where I would condone cheating.

That being said ... if someone choses to cheat, for whatever reason, that is their choice.  I would never presume to take that choice away from them.  With choices there are always consequences.

The consequence for said cheater when dealing with me is that I simply won't associate or generally interact with one.  I don't chat with people who chose to cheat and I would never agree to meet someone who cheats.  I definately would not play with or enter into any kind of a D/s relationship with someone who cheats. 

Those are my choices.  Perhaps it might be better if everyone simply made the choices that they can live with and leave everyone else to do the same - lol.

Wickad



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:10:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I agree with Celeste and velvetears (and some others, as well) and with benji, too -
 
** I also want to know why on a bdsm message board, nobody is equating the idea of having an "open marriage" with Polyamory, and discussing that - or bringing it up at all. People have been doing this kind of thing in places like Europe, and other countries, for years, so part of the resistance in the U.S., IMO, really is cultural.


susan,

many of us who are against cheating in most cases have already said that we are against it for the dishonesty factor. polyamory and open relationships do not fall under this because they are not dishonest (and if they are, then they're just cheating and trying to call it something else). no one's saying having multiple partners is bad, that i can see. we're just saying that if you're lying about it, and it's not been consented to by the other partner, that's a BIG problem. i am polyamorous, and condone all kinds of multiple partner relationships. WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE OTHER PARTNER. otherwise, imho, unless it falls under one of the categories i've already put, i personally think it's wrong. if being staunchly opposed to dishonesty makes me culturally backward, then dammit, i'm culturally backward. :)



Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:11:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: asubmissiveheart
I agree with this post, many use this lifestyle as an excuse to have no morals.
You can't hide immorality under the guise of BDSM, it does not work that way.


Whoa, whoa, whoa there...don't go judging other people you don't know. 
 
I have morals...but just because I think it is more morally reprehensible to worship some made up story that is 2000 years old than to fuck someone's wife doesn't mean I don't have morals. 
 
YOU don't have morals.  At least, no morals that count.



gooddogbenji -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:17:18 PM)

I was just making myself a fruit salad, when I had an epiphany. 

If anytime I cause harm to someone, even if it lessens someone else's harm, (It's just the lesser of two wrongs) and inaction can also be wrong, then really, how on earth can someone live without constantly doing actions that are wrong???

So we all do wrong, constantly, through inaction and trade-offs.  Kinda trivializes the term.  If I commit 427 wrongs for every hour I'm awake (and don't even get me started on my inacations while I sleep!!!!!), then cheating on my spouse is just #428.

At the time when people have to accept that they do wrong several times a day just to live, they stop caring about being wrong on any level.

In a similar way, we have a highway in Canada, the 401.  The speed limit is 100 km/h.  No one, not even the cops, drives that.  I rarely dip below 130. 

If no one follows the speed limit, how do you want to justify pulling someone over?  The only way to drive that road is to go 120 or faster, and you're (the cop) pulling me over for not causing an accident?

So if everyone is always wrong, don't be surprised if people stop caring.

Yours,


benji






Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:18:32 PM)

And by the way, how did this action get called "cheating"?  Cheating is what you do on school exams. 
 
This action is "fucking someone else".  Let's not use euphamisms to make ourselves feel better.
 
And, I don't know why all christian religions think it is wrong, because as animals, we are programmed to procreate.  This is hardwired.  If the spousal unit is not in the same procreate mode, then "FSE" will happen, and shouldn't be considered evil.  Why is fucking someone else such a big deal?  Is the spouse considered 'property'?  "No, he is MINE, you can't have him?"
 
Strange sex is a good thing, and anyone who isn't getting any should try it.  You'll have to shrug off your christian training, but once you do that a great clarity for life comes about and you will wonder why arguments like this ever occur.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:18:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

[
 
I have morals...but just because I think it is more morally reprehensible to worship some made up story that is 2000 years old than to fuck someone's wife doesn't mean I don't have morals. 
.


 I happen to find BOTH those concepts morally reprehensible but that's just my opinion.



gooddogbenji -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:20:26 PM)

To get back to the cheating thing, and the coma idea which has been passed around here, I feel that in that situation, when the partner wakes up, the "cheater" should make an effort to create a situation where he can come clean.  If he truly believes that what he did was not wrong, and she truly loves him, I do not see how this would be a problem.

It's not like he was turning her down all this time, he was just keeping the motor warm.

It all comes down to intention.

Yours,


benji



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:21:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

And by the way, how did this action get called "cheating"?  Cheating is what you do on school exams. 
 
This action is "fucking someone else".  Let's not use euphamisms to make ourselves feel better.
 
And, I don't know why all christian religions think it is wrong, because as animals, we are programmed to procreate.  This is hardwired.  If the spousal unit is not in the same procreate mode, then "FSE" will happen, and shouldn't be considered evil.  Why is fucking someone else such a big deal?  Is the spouse considered 'property'?  "No, he is MINE, you can't have him?"
 
Strange sex is a good thing, and anyone who isn't getting any should try it.  You'll have to shrug off your christian training, but once you do that a great clarity for life comes about and you will wonder why arguments like this ever occur.


PLEASE tell me you are not assuming I am christian because I am NOT and never have been at ANY point in my life, nor were my parents. I have NEVER had one iota of christian training.

I am pagan with wiccan tendencies and I believe in choosing the path in life that causes the least amount of possible harm to others.

Not one person has said anything about christianity and I have no idea why you are bringing it up.

Fucking someone else isn't wrong. Fucking someone else without your spouses approval and then LYING about it is.





mnottertail -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:23:12 PM)

what I find morally reprehensible is that if I call someone a fuckwad for their veiwpoint  I get a big nasty letter, and am threatened with moderation, yet the seminal post in this series castigates a thought set by using the words fucktard and fuckwit---------

I guess a prophet is without honor in his own country..........

Isaiah



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:23:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

To get back to the cheating thing, and the coma idea which has been passed around here, I feel that in that situation, when the partner wakes up, the "cheater" should make an effort to create a situation where he can come clean.  If he truly believes that what he did was not wrong, and she truly loves him, I do not see how this would be a problem.

It's not like he was turning her down all this time, he was just keeping the motor warm.

It all comes down to intention.

Yours,


benji


i agree wholeheartedly.



gooddogbenji -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:24:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Fucking someone else isn't wrong. Fucking someone else without your spouses approval and then LYING about it is.


What if it never comes up? 

If a tree falls in the forest......

Yours,


benji



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:24:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

To get back to the cheating thing, and the coma idea which has been passed around here, I feel that in that situation, when the partner wakes up, the "cheater" should make an effort to create a situation where he can come clean.  If he truly believes that what he did was not wrong, and she truly loves him, I do not see how this would be a problem.

It's not like he was turning her down all this time, he was just keeping the motor warm.

It all comes down to intention.

Yours,


benji


i agree wholeheartedly.



As so I. The coma situation is a different thing entirely than "I want anal and my wife won't give it to me, so I'm gonna fuck my secretary."



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:26:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

And by the way, how did this action get called "cheating"?  Cheating is what you do on school exams. 
 
This action is "fucking someone else".  Let's not use euphamisms to make ourselves feel better.
 
And, I don't know why all christian religions think it is wrong, because as animals, we are programmed to procreate.  This is hardwired.  If the spousal unit is not in the same procreate mode, then "FSE" will happen, and shouldn't be considered evil.  Why is fucking someone else such a big deal?  Is the spouse considered 'property'?  "No, he is MINE, you can't have him?"
 
Strange sex is a good thing, and anyone who isn't getting any should try it.  You'll have to shrug off your christian training, but once you do that a great clarity for life comes about and you will wonder why arguments like this ever occur.


then the spouse that's going outside of the relationship has the responsibility to be honest about it, or to end the relationship before doing it. don't vow to be monogamous and then go fuck other people. if you're going to do that, vow to be in an open relationship from the get go. don't fucking lie about it.

by the way, i am very happily not christian. :) i'm also a regular practitioner of strange sex and i am polyamorous. so i'm not saying that these things are wrong. i'ms aying that fucking other people and lying about it, or saying you're going to be monogamous and then fucking other people, is wrong. as far as procreation goes, i always use birth control and use condoms with everyone but my dominant, so i think the whole fucking for procreation argument goes down the drain when contraception comes into the picture ;)



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