RE: CIAW (Full Version)

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Sab -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:06:29 PM)

I agree with benji! :D 




Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:07:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
yep, i agree that in a lot of cases it's fucked up from the get go. doesn't mean that people don't have a responsibility to keep their promises. doesn't mean that there aren't perfectly happily, perfectly functional monogamous couples, either.

When people get 'married' there is only one premise the government recognizes: monogamy between one man+one woman.  So most don't have a choice to request something else if they want the tax benefits from Uncle Sugar.

quote:

the argument that only christians should use the word moral, from non-christians, is a lot of what gets the non-christians slammed by the christians for being evil. just because i'm pagan with a healthy dose of buddhist and discordian flavoring does not mean i'm not allowed to have my own views of morality.
   I didn't say christians SHOULD use the word, I said they DID use the word a lot - that is how I tell they are christian.  I also didn't say that you couldn't have morals - I was trying to make the point that when someone says the word 'morals' it is like saying 'dog'.  When I say 'dog' I think of a German shepherd.  Some might think of a Maltese, others of a pit bull.  But most people automatically assume that everyone else thinks the same thing from only one word.  Isn't true, and no one should say 'moral' without explaining what is in their head so everyone can start from the same place.

quote:

otherwise what would keep me from running around killing people? are you saying that's okay, and that the belief that killing people for fun is wrong is ultimately christian?

People are animals - just like cattle - in my book.  (We just think we are better than them.)  Human life in general holds no sanctity in my book, so if you decide to have fun and go on a killing rampage either as a christian or as a pagan - go for it.  In my opinion it is like a dog killing other dogs or killing cats...just dead bodies rotting in the sun.  The problem is that christianity says it is wrong to kill - but look at Iraq.
quote:

i think that it's very possible that you need some counseling for whatever your christian upbringing did to your brain to hate christianity and lay all the ills of the world at its feet.

I know I've touched a hot button when someone tells me to get counseling. :)  christianity has done all that is necessary to lay the ills of the world at its feet; it certainly doesn't need my help.  I don't hate christians, I just think that they don't think for themselves, and are blinded by trying to be part of a group that holds itself out as better than others.  However, I hold the same opinion for all organized religions.  I'll be glad when organized religion goes away or is considered a mental problem.  Hopefully, my children will see its demise.




BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:11:34 PM)

TY yes 
being honest and open goes a long way, also it helps that we are a married committed couple who love each other and still in love after theses years..I will not go into why a man should have multi partners it an old horse and been beaten to death ..bounty




Sab -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:12:20 PM)

quote:

I don't hate christians, I just think that they don't think for themselves,


I do! Just because you have been subjected to the bible pushing retards that come exclusively from Texas - take in account that ALL Texans are retards, I can see your point!

PS, I don't really think that but people who lumb everyone together gets right on my tits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:12:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Furthermore, your above quote is just insulting. It implies that non christians have no morals.

No it doesn't.  It says that most non-christians don't spout the word in every other sentence like the "moral majority" (or haven't you heard of that phrase before?)
 
quote:

I guess since I'm pagan, I'm expected to have no morals whatsoever and be a rampant hedonist. I guess it doesn't make sense that pagans, buddhists, wiccans, druids, asatru folks, etc might, *goodness forbid* have moral fiber.

Now YOU are assuming.
 
I am sorry that you are not listening to what I am saying and having a knee-jerk reaction on your upbringing.  If the only exercise you get is jumping to conclusions, you may want to see your doctor.




princess4Sir -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:12:59 PM)

why is being deprived of physical affection because one's partner is in a coma or in some other way unable to physically provide that affection any different than a person who is deprived of physical affection because they no longer find their partner sexually fulfilling?  when you take the vows, you don't say "in sickness and in health - unless one of us is in a coma or something...."
 
i am definitely NOT in the CIAW camp - far from it - i make my own decisions and am comfortable with them - so i'm not asking for anyone to share my feelings - and i have no intention of justifying my actions - nor do i expect anyone to justify their actions to me
 
i just found it interesting that some people think it's ok to "cheat" if your partner is in a coma or otherwise physically incapacitated




GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:15:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: princess4Sir

why is being deprived of physical affection because one's partner is in a coma or in some other way unable to physically provide that affection any different than a person who is deprived of physical affection because they no longer find their partner sexually fulfilling?  when you take the vows, you don't say "in sickness and in health - unless one of us is in a coma or something...."
 
i am definitely NOT in the CIAW camp - far from it - i make my own decisions and am comfortable with them - so i'm not asking for anyone to share my feelings - and i have no intention of justifying my actions - nor do i expect anyone to justify their actions to me
 
i just found it interesting that some people think it's ok to "cheat" if your partner is in a coma or otherwise physically incapacitated



A person in a coma can't consent to a divorce or "talk through their problems."

They can't be given an honest chance to remedy whatever is wrong.






AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:18:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
So because you think a commited two person relationship is wrong, it's ok for people to lie and say they can happily to commit to one and then go behind the other person's back?

Yes.
 

 
Have you told your partner it's ok to lie to you yet?
 
quote:




quote:

Polyarmory and open marriages work. However, it only works if everyone knows what is going on. Even if that knowing is just going "I don't want to know, be safe and have fun."

Because we live in this christian dominated society, one has to try to blend in.  Most don't have the balls to tell their parents that they are going down a different path.  Until you change society or find a magick potion to keep society's pressures at bay, this will continue.



Do some history. Many religions have partner limitations, not just Christianity. Sorry to disappoint you.




princess4Sir -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:20:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

A person in a coma can't consent to a divorce or "talk through their problems."

They can't be given an honest chance to remedy whatever is wrong.



i don't recall ever hearing any wedding vows that say the vows are dissolved if one partner is unable to have an "honest chance to remedy whatever is wrong" - in fact, the "well" partner can indeed remedy the situation by divorcing their partner and thereby being free to pursue their sexual needs




AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:20:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754


quote:

the argument that only christians should use the word moral, from non-christians, is a lot of what gets the non-christians slammed by the christians for being evil. just because i'm pagan with a healthy dose of buddhist and discordian flavoring does not mean i'm not allowed to have my own views of morality.
   I didn't say christians SHOULD use the word, I said they DID use the word a lot - that is how I tell they are christian.  I also didn't say that you couldn't have morals - I was trying to make the point that when someone says the word 'morals' it is like saying 'dog'.  When I say 'dog' I think of a German shepherd.  Some might think of a Maltese, others of a pit bull.  But most people automatically assume that everyone else thinks the same thing from only one word.  Isn't true, and no one should say 'moral' without explaining what is in their head so everyone can start from the same place.

quote:

otherwise what would keep me from running around killing people? are you saying that's okay, and that the belief that killing people for fun is wrong is ultimately christian?

People are animals - just like cattle - in my book.  (We just think we are better than them.)  Human life in general holds no sanctity in my book, so if you decide to have fun and go on a killing rampage either as a christian or as a pagan - go for it.  In my opinion it is like a dog killing other dogs or killing cats...just dead bodies rotting in the sun.  The problem is that christianity says it is wrong to kill - but look at Iraq.
quote:

i think that it's very possible that you need some counseling for whatever your christian upbringing did to your brain to hate christianity and lay all the ills of the world at its feet.

I know I've touched a hot button when someone tells me to get counseling. :)  christianity has done all that is necessary to lay the ills of the world at its feet; it certainly doesn't need my help.  I don't hate christians, I just think that they don't think for themselves, and are blinded by trying to be part of a group that holds itself out as better than others.  However, I hold the same opinion for all organized religions.  I'll be glad when organized religion goes away or is considered a mental problem.  Hopefully, my children will see its demise.


It sounds like you don't know anything about Christians except the ones who push their faith on you. And frankly, in doing so, embrass the rest of us. Way to hold everyone up to a bad sterotype! Huzzah! Now let's talk about how all subs are weak crybabies who don't know what they want in life. It'll be fun!




justheather -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:20:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears


i tend to try and steer clear of judgemental words like "wrong" 


Dear Lord, how ever so grateful I am to not be inhabiting this reality.

When I awake in the morning, I like knowing which way is the floor and which way is the ceiling. And in my interpersonal relationships, I find it comforting to know that deceiving and betraying them for the sake of my own personal (perceived) fulfillment is wrong.

I agree Im not perfect. That does not necessitate, in my mind, the need to abandon ethics and live under the delusion that everything is so relative that nothing is right and good and nothing is wrong and bad.

Okay, let's not throw that word around carelessly. Agreed.
But to avoid the concept completely?




DaggerDom -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:24:58 PM)

No one with an ounce of brains or guts will refrain from an action merely because somebody else considers the action to be immoral.




GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:29:55 PM)

quote:

Have you told your partner it's ok to lie to you yet?


I'm curious about that one too...I also assume he lets them have sex with whoever they want and doesn't expect them to be faithful.




TrueCalling -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:38:59 PM)

Cripes, there's more excuses here than one could use in a lifetime... If nothing else it is revealing to see some of the younger set Christian-bashing~great insight into immaturity.. Some folks will jump on any bandwagon to popularity..
 
colleen
 
 




cloudboy -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:45:59 PM)

What Dan Savage pointed out is that sometimes Cheating is the better option.

In human relationships and all their complexity, I like to review things on a case-by-case basis. That's why the platitude contained in the acronym, CIAW, is so fucking funny.




MadameMarque -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:47:11 PM)

Here's a little something...ever consider what happens when people pretending to be exclusive, sexually, come home and have unprotected sex with their partner, because there's no convenient way to explain having protected sex with your "only" partner? 

Even in the "best" case scenario - if you can call being betrayed and disrespected by the person you imagined loved you most, whom you thought you knew most intimately and could trust - if you can call any example of that "best," -  
if the person screwing around uses protection carefully, completely, and every time, - say it with me, everybody - is it called safe sex or "safer" sex? 

But people aren't using protection.  If you think that this exact scenario, of people cheating and bringing home diseases,  isn't a significant contribution to the spread of HIV infection and STD's, right now, you are mistaken.

And in heterosexual adultery, even if birth control is used, does anyone who uses birth control ever get someone pregnant?  If there is an unwanted pregnancy, will any of the potential parents involved want the baby?  Will all of them have a custody battle?  Do you envy a baby born into that situation, stuck being a symbol of infidelity?

Also, cheating sometimes leads to violence.  Sometimes the violence gets directed at the partner being cheated on, from someone the cheater was seeing.

And, sentimental as I'm sure it seems to Dan Savage and company, there is the psychological devastation of discovering that the person you thought you knew, you didn't know, the one you thought you could trust, you couldn't, of having a big chunk of your reality pulled out from under you.  It makes people doubt their own judgment.  It's definitely painful enough if your significant other *is* honest with you, and the news is bad.  But lying and betrayal is so much worse.

And who gets to decide whether you're willing to take all these risks?  Why, your cheating partner will decide, for both of you.  What's so safe, sane, or consensual about that?


It's human to be weak and find it too hard or too scary to be honest and take the consequences.  It's human weakness to want to do what you feel like doing, but not want to give your partner a chance to make their own *informed* decisions on how that effects them. 

But for someone to be indignant about having the right to do wrong - that excerpt of Dan Savage's is pitifully assailable.

It literally does not even occur to Dan Savage that there is another alternative to either staying and cheating or continuing on for the rest of one's life, in a manner that they find unacceptable.  That would be telling the truth and taking the consequences. 

How about giving your partner a chance to decide what *they* want to do, too?  What's the matter, would that be too inconvenient or uncomfortable?  Because, if you aren't fulfilled with them, maybe they'd rather find someone who is.  Because, if they knew what you were potentially exposing them to, by screwing around, they might decide for themselves they don't want to take those risks, including, perhaps, exposing themselves to the heartbreak or the indignity. 

They might decide to leave you.  You might have to move on.  You might have to decide whether you want to put up with the risks of both of you seeing other people.

People who cheat don't want to give their partner a chance to make their own informed decisions, too. 


This is exactly why I never bother with Dan Savage, unrepentent poseur that he is.  He'd rather continue to say what he fancies to be cool or rebellious than to ever have a conscientious scrupple over his glib advice.




GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:47:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrueCalling

Cripes, there's more excuses here than one could use in a lifetime... If nothing else it is revealing to see some of the younger set Christian-bashing~great insight into immaturity.. Some folks will jump on any bandwagon to popularity..
 
colleen
 
 


I just wanted to clarify that I did NOT intend to "christian bash". (I don't know if you were referring to me or not, I just wanted to make the clarification just in case.)

I do take offense to people ASSUMING I'm christian. I am not fond of the christian faith, though I respect that others find it valid. I just don't want people assuming that just because I'm "moral" that I must be christian.




AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 8:04:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

quote:

Have you told your partner it's ok to lie to you yet?


I'm curious about that one too...I also assume he lets them have sex with whoever they want and doesn't expect them to be faithful.



It seems to me that if lying is ok in one circumstance it's ok in all of them. This includes if dinner is ready or if they have STDs. If you don't care about honesty, then you don't care about honesty.




dcnovice -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 8:08:01 PM)

Cheese and crackers, anyone?




AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 8:17:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Cheese and crackers, anyone?


At this point I think we should prepare a more substantial meal. Perhaps a nice turkey dinner with some wine?




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