RE: CIAW (Full Version)

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hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:27:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Fucking someone else isn't wrong. Fucking someone else without your spouses approval and then LYING about it is.


What if it never comes up? 

If a tree falls in the forest......

Yours,


benji


then it's still wrong, imho. don't agree to monogamy and then go outside of the relationship without your spouse's knowledge or approval.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:27:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Fucking someone else isn't wrong. Fucking someone else without your spouses approval and then LYING about it is.


What if it never comes up? 

If a tree falls in the forest......

Yours,


benji


If you make a vow to monogamy, then you break that vow, you have lied. The vow itself becomes the lie retroactively. "Lying" can be defined as general deception.

For the record, I've yet to meet a cheater who didn't have to lie to cover his tracks on occasion. Not saying it doesn't happen, but usually lies are necessary.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:29:43 PM)

quote:

i think the whole fucking for procreation argument goes down the drain when contraception comes into the picture ;)


I agree. I have never at any point in my life felt the need to procreate (had my tubes tied at age 23!). I fuck cause I enjoy sex. It feels good.

I have enjoyed "strange sex" and one night stands and casual sex, etc.

I always did it when I was single and non-committed.



Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:32:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

PLEASE tell me you are not assuming I am christian because I am NOT and never have been at ANY point in my life, nor were my parents. I have NEVER had one iota of christian training.

In the US, I assume everyone who uses the word "moral" is christian.  I am not wrong that often. (If what you say is true, I will be happy to say I was wrong if it makes you feel better.)  

quote:


Fucking someone else isn't wrong. Fucking someone else without your spouses approval and then LYING about it is.

Why do we have a tradition of relationships that is only 'one man + one woman'?  This is fucked up from the get-go.  Have you ever considered that this assumption (teaching/cultural stamp) is NOT the best way to conduct human endeavors, since it seems it is a rule that is only kept a small percentage of the time?  Shouldn't we try for something that everyone can live with?



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:33:56 PM)

quote:

by the way, i am very happily not christian.


*looks around, under tables, behind the closet door, under the bed**

Hmm...I can't seem to find those christians Invictus was referring to ...have you seen them, Annabelle? They don't seem to be anywhere in MY house....Check in the closet, would ya? Maybe the snuck in and used our keyboards when we were in the bathroom or something.



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:34:50 PM)

yep, i agree that in a lot of cases it's fucked up from the get go. doesn't mean that people don't have a responsibility to keep their promises. doesn't mean that there aren't perfectly happily, perfectly functional monogamous couples, either.

the argument that only christians should use the word moral, from non-christians, is a lot of what gets the non-christians slammed by the christians for being evil. just because i'm pagan with a healthy dose of buddhist and discordian flavoring does not mean i'm not allowed to have my own views of morality. otherwise what would keep me from running around killing people? are you saying that's okay, and that the belief that killing people for fun is wrong is ultimately christian?

i think that it's very possible that you need some counseling for whatever your christian upbringing did to your brain to hate christianity and lay all the ills of the world at its feet.



gooddogbenji -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:35:21 PM)

No one is arguing monagamy is the only right way.  What people are saying is that, if you agree to it, you should stick to it.

If you don't agree to it, fuck away, Cap'n.

Yours,


benji



Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:36:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
so i think the whole fucking for procreation argument goes down the drain when contraception comes into the picture ;)


I didn't say that we needed to have babies; I said that we are hardwired to try to have babies.  Just because he is shooting blanks or she has no uterus doesn't change the desire to fuck.



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:36:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

quote:

by the way, i am very happily not christian.


*looks around, under tables, behind the closet door, under the bed**

Hmm...I can't seem to find those christians Invictus was referring to ...have you seen them, Annabelle? They don't seem to be anywhere in MY house....Check in the closet, would ya? Maybe the snuck in and used our keyboards when we were in the bathroom or something.



maybe. i did make a quick trip to blockbuster mid thread, so they could have snuck in while i was gone. i'm off to watch a movie soon...i hope they don't come back...



AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:36:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:


Fucking someone else isn't wrong. Fucking someone else without your spouses approval and then LYING about it is.

Why do we have a tradition of relationships that is only 'one man + one woman'?  This is fucked up from the get-go.  Have you ever considered that this assumption (teaching/cultural stamp) is NOT the best way to conduct human endeavors, since it seems it is a rule that is only kept a small percentage of the time?  Shouldn't we try for something that everyone can live with?


So because you think a commited two person relationship is wrong, it's ok for people to lie and say they can happily to commit to one and then go behind the other person's back?

Polyarmory and open marriages work. However, it only works if everyone knows what is going on. Even if that knowing is just going "I don't want to know, be safe and have fun."



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:39:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
so i think the whole fucking for procreation argument goes down the drain when contraception comes into the picture ;)


I didn't say that we needed to have babies; I said that we are hardwired to try to have babies.  Just because he is shooting blanks or she has no uterus doesn't change the desire to fuck.


it also doesn't change the fact that we have the ability to make choices that override said desire. if we've made the promise of monogamy, we have the sentient ability to follow through on that promise, or else be honest about our desire to go outside of the relationship and if necessary, break up with our current partner to explore this desire.

this is right up there with the "it fell in" excuse. we're humans, we have reasoning capabilities. we're able to get the concept of delaying gratification. using biology as an excuse is despicable, imho.



bbwdommelilith -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:41:02 PM)

Cheating may always be wrong, but in some situations the wrong thing is the only right thing to do. Life is complex.

Lilith



Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:41:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
So because you think a commited two person relationship is wrong, it's ok for people to lie and say they can happily to commit to one and then go behind the other person's back?

Yes.

quote:

Polyarmory and open marriages work. However, it only works if everyone knows what is going on. Even if that knowing is just going "I don't want to know, be safe and have fun."

Because we live in this christian dominated society, one has to try to blend in.  Most don't have the balls to tell their parents that they are going down a different path.  Until you change society or find a magick potion to keep society's pressures at bay, this will continue.



Invictus754 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:44:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
this is right up there with the "it fell in" excuse. we're humans, we have reasoning capabilities. we're able to get the concept of delaying gratification. using biology as an excuse is despicable, imho.


Despicable, but true.  You can't fool Mother Nature.  If this desire is so great that spouses are willing to chance fucking behind the other spouses back, it must be a powerful force indeed - whether you agree or not.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:45:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

PLEASE tell me you are not assuming I am christian because I am NOT and never have been at ANY point in my life, nor were my parents. I have NEVER had one iota of christian training.

In the US, I assume everyone who uses the word "moral" is christian.  I am not wrong that often. (If what you say is true, I will be happy to say I was wrong if it makes you feel better.)  

quote:


Fucking someone else isn't wrong. Fucking someone else without your spouses approval and then LYING about it is.

Why do we have a tradition of relationships that is only 'one man + one woman'?  This is fucked up from the get-go.  Have you ever considered that this assumption (teaching/cultural stamp) is NOT the best way to conduct human endeavors, since it seems it is a rule that is only kept a small percentage of the time?  Shouldn't we try for something that everyone can live with?


I completely agree that many people are happy in polyamorous relationships and fully support polyamoury and open relationships (though I myself do not participate in such).

And I appreciate you saying you were wrong for calling me christian. No offense to the christians out there, but I considered that a personal insult.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:48:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
So because you think a commited two person relationship is wrong, it's ok for people to lie and say they can happily to commit to one and then go behind the other person's back?

Yes.

quote:

Polyarmory and open marriages work. However, it only works if everyone knows what is going on. Even if that knowing is just going "I don't want to know, be safe and have fun."

Because we live in this christian dominated society, one has to try to blend in.  Most don't have the balls to tell their parents that they are going down a different path.  Until you change society or find a magick potion to keep society's pressures at bay, this will continue.



Newsflash: Not all of us were raised by christians. I was raised by very happy agnostics.

I can't believe you would say that going behind someone's back is ok...what a horrible thing to believe! If you want to fuck more than one person, go for it! But have the balls to be honest about it.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:54:03 PM)

quote:

n the US, I assume everyone who uses the word "moral" is christian.


You know what they say about the assumptions...they make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".

I find it downright hilarious that you assumed that the two people arguing morality here were christian, and as it turns out neither of us was.

Actually you sound EXACTLY like someone who was raised in an overly christian environment and later rebelled against it.

I have no such resentments seeing as how christianity was never a part of my upbringing.

Furthermore, your above quote is just insulting. It implies that non christians have no morals.

I guess since I'm pagan, I'm expected to have no morals whatsoever and be a rampant hedonist. I guess it doesn't make sense that pagans, buddhists, wiccans, druids, asatru folks, etc might, *goodness forbid* have moral fiber.

Excuse me, I'm going to go strip naked and have a random orgy in the woods since apparantly I have to be christian to believe in morals.



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 6:57:45 PM)

I am a lucky man ,When I find a cute one DIANE says"then bring her home and we both can enjoy her"She is only what I would say bi curious.love to tease the girls and make them cry for ..more...What works for us surely wouldn't work for the majority...bounty



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:01:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

I am a lucky man ,When I find a cute one DIANE says"then bring her home and we both can enjoy her"She is only what I would say bi curious.love to tease the girls and make them cry for ..more...What works for us surely wouldn't work for the majority...bounty


But you are being honest with her and respecting your relationship. That is a beautiful thing.

If more men would just ADMIT they don't want monogamy , it would save people a lot of time and heartbreak.

I truly believe that some people are not meant to be monogamous and I respect the fact that they were made that way by Mother Nature. I do believe they should be honest about such.





bbwdommelilith -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 7:05:46 PM)

I am in the not-very-pleasant position of having found out a week ago that my first BDSM partner- in whom I had placed an ENORMOUS amount of trust and who pushed me far beyond what I thought my limits were- had been cheating on me since we started seeing each other last August. Naturally, I feel tremendously hurt and betrayed. But it is not just knowing that he was playing and having sex with someone else that hurts. There was a certain lack of spontaneity in our conversations that developed very quickly, we never went to events together, and he NEVER used my name. He not only cheated me of the truth, he cheated me of himself when I was doing my best to give of myself, mentally, emotionally, and sexually. The reticence I felt in him made it much more difficult for me to share myself with him, although I didn't know what was going on at the time, because we had had a very easy and casual initial connection. So he also cheated himself out of having the best of me. The dynamics of deception are pervasive and affect all aspects of a relationship, on both sides.
    Despite this, knowing him and his situation, I can see why he might have felt that that was his only option.
    Doesn't mean I think that he was right to do what he did. He cheated all three of us.
    And the worst part is that I think that he blames me for busting him to the other woman when my bullshit detector finally went off and I needed to have my inner knowledge of his deception confirmed.
    Yup, MY fault that they aren't friends any more. And my fault for getting too attached to him.
    I'm not holding my breath expecting an apology. I don't think that he's a big enough person to admit that he was wrong.
    My one consolation is that he is getting a bad rep in the local BDSM community (not from me- past partners who he has treated shamefully.) What goes around...

Lilith

   



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