RE: Subs who play with safewords (Full Version)

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BrainSlugs83 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 5:19:41 AM)

IMHO it sounds like she was a bedroom submissive who for some reason or other faked her slavedom until it became too inconvienient.  I would demand she stop the behaviour at once, making sure she knew that if she ever did it to wrongly escape a punishment again that I would dump her on her stupid worthless ass.

I really like the suggestion made earlier about requiring an explanation in essay form for each utterance of the dreaded word though -- of course it would have to have a due date, and prior agreed upon punishements if the wench was not timely in delivering said essay.

"Playing with safewords is the same as having no safeword. In my opinion so the person would need to be taught to take them seriously. " -- that sounds somewhat fun and also idealistic, but also like a really great way to get in trouble with the law...

"I've never actually used my safeword. " -- I had a slave that did this, she lasted about three weeks, and finally blew up emotionally at me one day and discontinued the relationship -- she had bottled everything up inside -- it was a learning experience for me though.  -- Because she never used safety words, the few times I knew that I was crossing limits I would ask her "are you uncomfortable?" she would say "yes" and I'd stop -- she did tell me "no" or to "stop" on occasion, and I did, in retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have... -- I didn't know her very well -- I asked after her explosion why she never used the safewords, and it was something she couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

"Yes, tops get safewords too, dang it!" -- I'm interested, please elaborate.

"This is why I dont use safe words." -- I don't think this is safe -- even mentally screwing someone the wrong way could cause a panic attack... etc.

"PS You could employ a ball gag and tell her the new safe word is to spell chrysanthemin and not let her read this forum post. " -- that was fucking beautiful. -- On a side note:  I have on occasion given safety "signs" that girls can make with their hands, for instance, when they're gagging on a cock and would like to avoid puking...



nissa -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 5:23:13 AM)

I do believe that if I tried to pull a stunt such as this, I would be shown the door very, very fast.



BrainSlugs83 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 9:14:39 AM)

awwww..... good.  [;)]  It sounds like you have a nice thing going on there. [:)]



Stephann -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 1:16:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

This isn't about legitimate use of a safeword; it's about who has control in your relationship - and clearly you don't!
 
When a sub safewords, it's my experience that it's usually a last resort and generally they're upset over having done so because they've rationalised it as a failure....  Sounds like your sub is merely substituting safeword for "NO!"
 
And that's most likely *YOUR* fault!  While it's true a sub is expected to submit to the Dom's control, it tends to work smoother when the Dom also carries his share of the load and actively dominates the sub, too!  She's telling you "No" - what tha hell are you gonna do about it????? 
 
I'm betting she'll stop taking charge of your relationship once you show you're ready to over.  Batter up!!!
 
Focus.


For this specific situation, the best advice has already been given; the use of safewords to escape punishment would be a bit like dating a person, because you have a mutual interest in motorcycles; yet when the time came to take a ride, she complains that motorcycles are too dangerous.

There are, of course, dozens of potential factors we don't know; perhaps she believed the punishment was too severe, perhaps you didn't explain the punishment to her, perhaps she was simply terrified because she had made a mistake and was already busy beating herself up for her mistake, perhaps she was testing to see if her safeword would actually be respected.  The potential reasons for the use of a safeword are too numerous to simply assume it was because she didn't want to be punished.

As suggested, you need to ask "why did you feel the need to use the safeword?"  It's an important issue.  Based on her answer, you will either choose to continue a BDSM relationship; or not.  Obviously, especially in the early stages of a relationship, you aren't going to be 100% certain what to expect, and it takes patience and trust on both sides.

Or, you could always take the less popular road and just not use safewords; I don't within the context of my own relationships (though I would certainly employ their use during 'play' with someone I did not know very well.)  Essentially, I don't like the idea of safewords as a substitute for clear communication; for the very reason you have demonstrated.

I quote Focus50, because it represents an issue that I've seen with safewords; that somehow they represent a failure either on the part of the dominant or submissive.  Frankly, the only 'failure' that could be here "Is a failure.... to communicate." 

Cool Hand Stephan



Suleiman -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 2:17:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrainSlugs83

"Yes, tops get safewords too, dang it!" -- I'm interested, please elaborate.



A lot of people forget that a relationship by it's nature is a two-way street. Some times, the dominant partner is the one who needs to end the scene earlt. A lot of tops don't like admitting to self-percieved weakness, and will push themselves far past their threshhold of comfort. Pushing your limits is okay within reason, but it can be just as self-destructive for the one who is ostensibly in control as for the person who is arguably submissive. Moreso, honestly, because there just isn't as much support in place.



BrainSlugs83 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 2:24:41 PM)

My apologies for ignorance, and maybe this is the wrong thread to ask -- forgive yet another thread hijack on my part guys because I'm so incredibly new to all of this terminology; I guess I don't quite understand what "a scene" in the context of a 24/7 TPE is -- wouldn't the whole relationship qualify as one big scene?



Stephann -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 2:41:12 PM)

Hello BrainSlugs,

Trust me, scenes do occur in TPE; at least in my version.  TPE, to me, doesn't mean a constant state of bondage.  There are times when we must behave in a less 'bound' fashion i.e. in front of her parents, at work, on the street shopping for potatoes.  There are times when we are alone, and have the sufficiant energy to 'scene' - this, for me, would consist of her being stripped and kneeling, or on the cross, or other overtly bound position.  In such a state, we won't be discussing the electric bill due tomorrow or how irritating it was waiting in line at the bank.

With this in mind, the shorter periods of 'play' represent a fetish interaction, if you will, that I would call 'scening.'

Having said that, I've never considered the need for a safeword; if something was too much for me, I would simply terminate or suspend the scene.  I will qualify this in saying I don't really give a girl much of an opportunity to break the scene; she is usually in partial or complete bondage, either physically or mentally.  If it were, say, a play rape scene, I would simply use her name and declare, clearly, that I need to end the scene.  This is just an example of how communication doesn't require an unusual word; but if an unusual word makes things easier, by all means go for it.

Regards,

Stephan

p.s. do you have a more...erm... common name that we might call you by, other than BS?  Thanks!     



BrainSlugs83 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/13/2007 5:02:27 PM)

BS is my online nick for almost everything.  If you have another nick name in mind that's fine too.  I suppose this isn't the introductions forum, but I'll give you a short bio of me, for those who are uninterested, skip this post, for those who wish to continue getting to know me, unless you think you have a question that will benefit others, a private message would be best, I am also open for chat buddies, I have AIM, MSN, YM, and ICQ.

In RL I tend to go by "Mikey", and I am 23. for the record, I have interactions with a lot more vanilla girls (VGs) than slaves/subs -- I've found that quite a few VGs are bedroom submissives who love the hard physical play and being controlled when they're horny, and I kind of stumbled into the knowledge that there are actually people who want to be this way outside of the bedroom too (one of my ex co-workers is a domme in an open vanilla relationship who occasionally has slaves over for a scene here and there, her boyfriend is, as you have likely already predicted, very whipped in my opinion)

To date, I've had three sub slaves, each relationship has been a failure so far, but also a learning experience for me, I honestly think that if I were to repeat any one of them I could make them last much longer now than I could when I was an absolute newbie (actually one of them I terminated, so maybe not that one).  I meet most of my dates online, and at the moment I have particular interests in a VG (18yrs), and in a slave (28yrs).  I could be happy with the right girl in either situation actually, but I think my ideal gal would be a slave.

I'm a very cutesey, spoiled child type, it sounds backwards but I would like my slave to be more responsible than I am, almost the same as a "daddy-type" but I would never call her mommy, she would take me to the zoo, have ice cream with me, etc -- when I was first introduced to BDSM I thought maybe I was a submissive, but after much thought, contemplation and interaction/play (both roles), I believe instead that I'm a dom.

Maybe instead of a mommy, I need a babysitter/maid... a role that appears more vulnerable and/or controllable...

In RL I'm the same way; I'm always more in my comfort zone as a follower, as it's a much easier thing to do -- but I'm never satasfied with it -- I find my self being irritated of my bosses/leaders/etc who make poor decisions, lack authority, and sometimes the ability to even do their jobs.  On the other hand, I know very well that I'm not the best leader I could be and am constantly working on being more tactful and charasmatic.  Charasmatic leaders are dangerous, in college I knew a club leader who could talk his way into, or out of just about anything; if I had believed in past lives, I would guess he was Adolf fucking Hitler by his abilities.  He was very inspiring; with my help along with the help of others we secured around $10k to turn a broom closet into a computer lab and pay for mentors/tutors (so, as a tutor, I wasn't completely broke during college). Can you believe that the technology building had no open computer lab before this?

* this post edited several times to elaborate: Last Edit 5:15 PM pac time zone *



SirDominic -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/14/2007 10:31:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domwolfe71

It's something that's been tugging at my mind for some time now. Perhaps some of you have experienced the same thing. There was a time long ago when I had a submissive who was very close to my heart. We partook of the lifestyle often and well. As we grew closer, she did something that just really jacked up my wiring. She used a safeword, apparently to just escape a punishment. I considered it a dreadful misuse of the safeword, but as I'd given my word to always obey it, here I was bound to stop. This did happen several other times until the ability to establish and maintain any kind of discipline was lost.

Have any of you had to deal with this type of situation? What did you do to remedy such a thing? If you're a SSC-respecting normal person, You're going to of course stop whenever its uttered, but what do you do when it's used frivolously.


From your description, this was NOT a case of her dealing with more than she could handle. Rather she safe worded before the punishment even began, if I understand you correctly. You also mentioned that she was very close to you emotionally, which indicates, as some have said, that you were not doing enough to maintain control.

My advice. Always honor a safeword. But if you are reasonably sure it is being misused; the first time that happens you stop the scene and tell her you will not accept this type of behavior. If she continues abusing the safeword, one of the most powerful ways to punish a sub is to withdraw yourself. I don't know if this was a live-in situation or not, but if someone were trying to pull this with me, I would simply stop the scene and tell her to leave (or I will leave if I am at her place). Tell her to come back when she is willing to follow the correct use of safewords. If it was a live-in situation, I'd simply ignore that she was there.

For most subs, the withdrawal of the Dominant is excruciating. If she doesn't seem to mind, then you need to find another partner because she obviously has no respect for you.

Namaste, Sir Dominic



BrainSlugs83 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/14/2007 12:51:07 PM)

quote:

"the first time that happens you stop the scene and tell her you will not accept this type of behavior."
I just want to emphasize that in my experience this is a big deal -- having authority or leadership in any situation must be percieved from the get-go; if people know you to be unassertive, they will see you as unassertive no matter what -- once someone thinks they know you, they have a copy of how they see you in the back of their heads and make unconcious calculations based on "how should I act around such and such" -- what mode to be in, etc... -- even if you act differently, it takes quite a long time to reshape the mold you've already caste in someone else's mind... it's MUCH easier to do this from the start.



viperess -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/14/2007 1:29:46 PM)

Greetings,

When i have been given a safe word i knew it was for scening and never for punishment as punishment was not for pleasure and it would hurt be it mental or physical. For many years i did not even have a safe word but Master demands sis and i have one as His big thing is He may hurt us but He will never harm us. It sounds to me as though she is trying to top from the bottom and control You and how You do things. If i was to pull that now or if i had pulled it with another Master i would have been shown the door at most or punished that much more severly in the least.



marsman -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/14/2007 1:50:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domwolfe71

It's something that's been tugging at my mind for some time now. Perhaps some of you have experienced the same thing. There was a time long ago when I had a submissive who was very close to my heart. We partook of the lifestyle often and well. As we grew closer, she did something that just really jacked up my wiring. She used a safeword, apparently to just escape a punishment. I considered it a dreadful misuse of the safeword, but as I'd given my word to always obey it, here I was bound to stop. This did happen several other times until the ability to establish and maintain any kind of discipline was lost.

Have any of you had to deal with this type of situation? What did you do to remedy such a thing? If you're a SSC-respecting normal person, You're going to of course stop whenever its uttered, but what do you do when it's used frivolously. It's like the boy who cried wolf without the object lesson at the end.


It sounds like either:
a) you are being too intense for her and the two of you have a communication problem or
b) she is playing a game of seeing what she can get away with, kind of topping from the bottom.

In either case the best solution may be to just stop playing with her for a while.

If a) is the case, then talking to her about her limits is probably in order. She may have become more sensitive and want to play at a lower intensity level than before. Or you may just not be listening to her signals properly and then going too far. Maybe you are trying too many new things that she is just not ready for.

If b) is the case, then not playing with her will show her that the "safe word" has some meaning. And will not get her out of a punishment, just change the kind of punishment...ie, not playing with her for a while.




Suleiman -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/14/2007 4:23:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mariposa

In my relationships using a safeword just means "we need to talk out of role." Questioning whether you consent to an action, or even withdrawing consent, is not tantamount to "crying rape."

Thank you. I knew I had misspoken somehow, but I was unable to find the flaw in what I had said.



Suleiman -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/14/2007 4:28:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrainSlugs83

My apologies for ignorance, and maybe this is the wrong thread to ask -- forgive yet another thread hijack on my part guys because I'm so incredibly new to all of this terminology; I guess I don't quite understand what "a scene" in the context of a 24/7 TPE is -- wouldn't the whole relationship qualify as one big scene?


There is scene space, and there is real life. Most people who are aware of SSC talk about the safe and the consensual, but frequently forget the SANE part. Never forget that you are role-playing. Occasionally, it is absolutely nessesary to break from scene and come up for air. The dominant and sumbissive partners have agreed to the role they take on, but they are still human beings, with their own thoughts, their own needs, their own wants and concerns. Breaking from scene is absolutely nessesary for a long term relationship. It is a partnership, and you do not take your partner for granted.



Celeste43 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/14/2007 5:25:35 PM)

In a good relationships punishments are rarely necessary. From the fact that you say this happened  frequently I'm assuming this wasn't a good relationship.

A good dominant doesn't seize on the slightest infraction and then punish. He explains, tries to find out what the problem is, and helps solve it so the sub doesn't feel like she's failed.

A bad dominant seizes on things that the sub has no control over, didn't understand or didn't believe were wrong and uses this as an excuse to be more sadistic than is the norm in the relationship.

In addition to physical tolerance is also emotional tolerance. Punishments may put a sub who suffered past physical or emotional abuse right back into that space. An intelligent sub would safeword in such a situation rather than be harmed. A sub in a good relationship would feel safe in explaining what was going on. One in a bad relationship wisely doesn't trust the dominant with these serious issues and therefore draws boundaries that she will not allow to be crossed and that she cannot explain because he has shown himself not to be trusted in such matters.

All you have to do is be dismissive of her the first time she makes herself vulnerable to you and she will rightly conclude that she cannot ever make herself vulnerable to you again.

As to what really happened here, all we have is your side. But I have a very strong feeling that if she explained this, it would sound very different.



BrainSlugs83 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/15/2007 2:19:41 AM)

kick ass material guys. [:)]



starshineowned -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/15/2007 5:18:41 AM)

Greetings..~smiles~

Upon becoming owned by Master I was required to give a off the wall word for safety reasons. Master does not use pain for punishment but pleasure. I know this gives him pleasure so if ever I were to utter this word just as an excuse to get out of being used for this pleasure of his..then he most probably just would not bother for quite some time to engage in this pleasure for himself. Now this is where I wouild feel the pain..the knowing that because of my misuse, selfishness, and putting my self before Master has caused him to not be able to enjoy something. Can't speak for others naturally but one time of knowing I've done that would be enough to not ever attempt it again.

This is not to say that if there were more deep issue's regarding any physical pain I at some point encountered that I would not ask to discuss it with Master..but bringing about the situation for topic by deceitful ways isn't the right way in my eyes.

Well Wishes

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin



obey1 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/16/2007 12:25:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
or diagraming sentences.
 


Well, now.  I'm off to Office Max to buy a whiteboard!  LOL.  Great Idea!



obey1 -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/16/2007 12:51:08 AM)

Actually, there was one site that I read that gave me a better idea with regards to what is happening here.

Not only should you have safewords or a methodical approach to respecting consent, but you should have them in varying degrees, such as a stoplight; green, yellow, and red.

GREEN can mean "I hear you, I enjoy you, I am enjoying myself, I want to see where this goes, please proceed with more of the same."
YELLOW can mean, "Oh, you pushed one of my buttons, there is a pedestrian waiting to cross, slow down, be prepared to stop, I am just voicing some newly found limits."
RED can mean, "Ok, please stop for now, that wasn't what I expected at all, I am beginning to panic, slam on the brakes."

As well you can use varying degrees of safewords within the context of the OP.

The first step would be to sit her down, void of any context, and speak to her as such:

"We need a new system of managing our relationship because you seem to be stuck on one word for a cure-all.  Your new safeword for these situations will be Band-Aid.  I will lick your imagined wounds and give you a kiss but then we will proceed to find some type of discipline that you are comfortable with.  Each time you cry "Band-Aid" you must have a genuine Band-Aid brand band-aid to offer me to stop the proceedings.  You must also purchase these Band-Aids with your own money.  You may not purchase more than one box of Band-Aids per day.  For every 5 Band-Aids you give me, I can trade them in for one piece of gauze and roll of tape.  You must also buy this gauze and roll of tape with your own money.  You must have this gauze and roll of tape available in your purse or inside the house upon presentation of 5 Band-Aids.  This 'gauze and roll of tape' is your second safeword, now a safe 'phrase'.  You may not use this phrase until I have ignored your Band-Aid request because I already posess the gauze and roll of tape.  Upon using 'gauze and roll of tape' you must subject yourself to allowing me to tape the gauze to any portion of your body where I deem fit.  It may be your forearm, and you may be required to wear a short sleeved shirt.  Or it may be your ass and you will present it to me each time you use the potty so I can check for germs.  You will wear the gauze and tape for one day upon each use of the phrase....

...Finally your safeword will be an expression of who you are and can only be used during the physical duration of the punishment, scene, or play, and it will be only "I will tell you what you want to know...."  At that time I will stop the punishment and ask you a series of questions like an exam.  Genuineness and honesty will be foremost and highly observed according to your former practices of Band-Aids and large wounds needing gauze and tape.  If at any point in the conversation I deem that your answer does not suit my interest I will have the right to continue the punishment, scene, or play until you so choose to use the phrase "I will tell you what you want to know" again.  You will agree to wait 5 additional seconds from the time I started anew to the time I stopped, irregardless of when you speak the phrase....."

Opinons?



MagiksSlave -> RE: Subs who play with safewords (3/16/2007 11:52:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obey1

Actually, there was one site that I read that gave me a better idea with regards to what is happening here.

Not only should you have safewords or a methodical approach to respecting consent, but you should have them in varying degrees, such as a stoplight; green, yellow, and red.

GREEN can mean "I hear you, I enjoy you, I am enjoying myself, I want to see where this goes, please proceed with more of the same."
YELLOW can mean, "Oh, you pushed one of my buttons, there is a pedestrian waiting to cross, slow down, be prepared to stop, I am just voicing some newly found limits."
RED can mean, "Ok, please stop for now, that wasn't what I expected at all, I am beginning to panic, slam on the brakes."

As well you can use varying degrees of safewords within the context of the OP.

The first step would be to sit her down, void of any context, and speak to her as such:

"We need a new system of managing our relationship because you seem to be stuck on one word for a cure-all.  Your new safeword for these situations will be Band-Aid.  I will lick your imagined wounds and give you a kiss but then we will proceed to find some type of discipline that you are comfortable with.  Each time you cry "Band-Aid" you must have a genuine Band-Aid brand band-aid to offer me to stop the proceedings.  You must also purchase these Band-Aids with your own money.  You may not purchase more than one box of Band-Aids per day.  For every 5 Band-Aids you give me, I can trade them in for one piece of gauze and roll of tape.  You must also buy this gauze and roll of tape with your own money.  You must have this gauze and roll of tape available in your purse or inside the house upon presentation of 5 Band-Aids.  This 'gauze and roll of tape' is your second safeword, now a safe 'phrase'.  You may not use this phrase until I have ignored your Band-Aid request because I already posess the gauze and roll of tape.  Upon using 'gauze and roll of tape' you must subject yourself to allowing me to tape the gauze to any portion of your body where I deem fit.  It may be your forearm, and you may be required to wear a short sleeved shirt.  Or it may be your ass and you will present it to me each time you use the potty so I can check for germs.  You will wear the gauze and tape for one day upon each use of the phrase....

...Finally your safeword will be an expression of who you are and can only be used during the physical duration of the punishment, scene, or play, and it will be only "I will tell you what you want to know...."  At that time I will stop the punishment and ask you a series of questions like an exam.  Genuineness and honesty will be foremost and highly observed according to your former practices of Band-Aids and large wounds needing gauze and tape.  If at any point in the conversation I deem that your answer does not suit my interest I will have the right to continue the punishment, scene, or play until you so choose to use the phrase "I will tell you what you want to know" again.  You will agree to wait 5 additional seconds from the time I started anew to the time I stopped, irregardless of when you speak the phrase....."

Opinons?


Wow that was terably confuseing for me and fail to see how getting her to get bandaids and such will prevent useing the safeword.. other then  maybe she doesnt want to be coverd in bandaids.. and why would haveing gaauz on you helps eather.. could you explain your line of thought here??

Magik's slave



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