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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/12/2007 10:38:09 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, if you're (your country) not *IN* the Geneva Conventions you can't demand the protections and privilidges from it.



But if you are in uniform representing a signatory, you have a responsibility to adhere to the contractual obligations your country has signed on to.

While I understand your idiotic idea that people who did not sign the Geneva Conventions in the 40s, perhaps because their country did not actually exist at the time, should somehow be exempted from it's protections,  I personally think the Geneva Convention was signed to prevent the sort of egregious abuses that Nazi Germany engaged in during World War 2.

Look at it another way.  Dubai uses all the money it gets from Halliburton, invades the United States, and sends you to Gitmo for torture.

Do you think Dubai (which did not exist in 1940) should be prevented by the Geneva Convention from hooking your testicles up to 110 VAC?

I suspect you wont actually answer, but I thought the question needed to be asked.

Sinergy




Sinergy, yes, I would have to go under the G.C. if the prisoners were "in uniform" when taken and *if* their home country were a signatory to the G.C.
If they're not "in uniform" they can be shot immediately "as spies."
And that's seperate from the G.C.
And, we have no obligations to treat prisoners as per the G.C. if their home countries are not signataries to the G.C. uniforms or not!  Why should we? It's an agreement or "treatie" if you will entered into by *named countries*.
The Geneva Conventions are not a one-way (we have to be nice to them but they don't have to be nice to us) document.
They spell out a lot of things but they also leave much out.
No country "has" to belong to the Geneva Conventions but if they don't they don't get any "goodies." Why should they?
They're not "automatically" covered.
They have to sign on the dotted line.
The Geneva Conventions cannot dictate to non-member countries.
Hell, they can't even dictate to member countries.
As for all those people in GTMO they can take them out tommorrow morning @0500 and shoot them in the back of the head for being spies and there's not a thing the G.C. can do about it. Drop them out of helocopters at sea if they want to.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/12/2007 10:48:45 PM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/12/2007 10:46:47 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

as my friend, Colbert puts it, at least if there was a draft, people would finally get off their lazy asses and protest the war! [paraphrased, of course]

where is the outrage to this empire? the violation of civil liberties left and right, the violation of rights, and choice? Where are the people opposed to the facist road this country is taking??


Damn you generation X, you lazy stoned assholes. our parents in their hay day would have never let this happen, but their getting old. Why arent the young kids standing up and protesting?

why is protesting suddenly viewed as useless and ineffective?

i am ashamed of my peers and their laziness.


Is it possible that the PTB has learned from its past mistakes, and have this younger generation well pacified?

(in reply to mixielicous)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/12/2007 11:10:30 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
How many casualties do we need before you start to think of them as being "high?"

How many casualties above "high" before we get to unacceptable?


These are the kind of answers that support my point number four ... when people like you start merging understanding something, with supporting it.
 
The simple answer is that one casualty, is one too many. Ten is ten too many. Thirty-five hundred, is thirty-five hundred too many. That doesn't change things ... we lose far more on the highways each year. We lose that many unnamed, unknown and unwanted children on the streets of paradise every month.
 
Since you made this post in an attempt to make someone look bad, I'll return the favor big boy. Are those dead worth any less to you, because they don't support your political agenda?

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 3/12/2007 11:11:08 PM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/12/2007 11:25:45 PM   
soultoshare


Posts: 519
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Sinergy, I agree wholeheartedly with you!  ONE casualty is 2 too many.  There is absolutely NO REASON to be in Iraq, other than Bush JR wanting to prove to Bush SR that he could get Saddam out of power.

Americans were outraged at the death of all those people at the WTC and the Pentagon, and the field in Pennsylvania.  Our military casualties alone have surpassed the total.....and no one wants to take a stand.  Our troops need to be pulled out of there, and damn everything else....those cultures have been fighting holy and civil wars for centuries......how arrogant for Bush to think he can go in and change that.

And before I get slammed for the above statement....I put my time in in the military.....I was never called for combat, but I would have gone had I been.  I know how poorly equipped the military personnel are, how lousy the equipment is, and how soldiers and families are paying for their own eqipment just to survuve there.  I'd be at the front line of any protest....whther I thought the PTB were listening or not.

Just my .02....

m

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 12:44:44 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, I still have my Geneva Conventions card from when I was in the Navy in 1971.
All it says on it is my name, rank and serial number.
Say if I were still in the Navy and we had a war with N. Korea.
That card wouldn't do me one bit of good because N. Korea isn't a signatory to the G.C. and they could do whatever they wanted to me if they captured me and there's nothing that the GC could do about it because N. Korea is not a signatary.
What if we captured N. Korean prisoners? We could line them up and shoot them because they aren't covered under the G.C.
The Geneva Conventions do not apply to "every" country, how could they? Many countries aren't "in the club" as it were.
If countries won't sign and abide by the G.C. they don't enjoy the protections of it! You (a country) have to sign up to be *in* it!
Now, if we had another war with Germany or England who *are* signatories to the G.C. we couldn't shoot their prisoners nor could they shoot ours.
When we got that G.C. card many, many moons ago at RTC Great Lakes, Ill. the Company Commander told all of us; "Now if you go to Vietnam don't get taken prisoner because the gooks don't believe in that shit!"
"If they catch you they'll fuckin kill you!"


That is a very interesting little world you live in, popeye1250.

I am personally of the opinion that there is a higher moral standard I want my military to ascribe to than the oen defined by a contract signed in the 1940s.

My point is that there is a letter of the law, and there is a spirit of the law.  Sounds like you want to wear a "letterman" jacket and egregiously torture people who were not invited into your club.

Sinergy


Sinergy, and that's an interesting little world you live in! lol
Boy, you "want" a lot don't you?
You make the same misstake that most reasonable and civilised people make, you just naturally assume that "all" people are reasonable and civilised just like you. They're not.
The World doesn't work that way.
I've been to a lot of different countries both in and out of the military and even in our own hemisphere there's a lot of nasty, savage countries and people.
*Any* country can sign onto the Geneva Conventions!
How come so many haven't?
I mean what's stopping them? They must have something to hide.
Why didn't Saddam Hussein?
Are they afraid of having inspectors comming into their countries looking at and inspecting their jails, court systems, hospitals, prisoners etc? And inspecting to make sure prisoners are being fed properly, have blankets and live in humanitarian conditions with good medical care?
You tell me why some countries don't want to belong to the Geneva Conventions! Sounds to me like they (may) have something to hide!
But if those countries aren't willing to be certified by the Geneva Conventions I'll be damned if I'd have my Troops or police give them any protections under the G.C.
As for Lyndey English and those people they were probably breaking Army regulations, I don't know, but they wearn't in violation of the G.C.
The people under their charge wearn't in military uniforms but were caught willy nilly which would exclude them from protections under the G.C. and could have got them summarily executed as spies.
Also, as I said, Saddam Hussein never signed the G.C. so they wearn't covered that way either.
And as for "the letter of the law and the spirit of the law" how can anyone expect our Troops to do that but say nothing about Saddam? Or al qeada?
I do expect my Troops to go by the Geneva Conventions but only towards signatory countries.
I think it's very unfair and also dangerous to expect them to treat "everyone" as though they're under the protection of the G.C. if they're not entitled to that protection.
We're just *asking* for trouble if we go down that road!
Our Troops are not boy scouts, peace keepers, social workers or correction officers. 
Their job description is to kill people and break things.
Would al qeada treat our people under the rules of the G.C. and let the Red Cross make visits to them? I think we all know the answer to that.
It's simple, you belong to the G.C. you get candy bars and coca cola from the Red Cross. You don't belong to the G.C. and you get a red hot poker up your ass.
Then there's the question of all those "refugees" still in the U.S.
When will they be repatriated to their home countries under section 1 of the Geneva Conventions?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/13/2007 12:55:27 AM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 1:06:56 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"I think it's very unfair and also dangerous to expect them to treat "everyone" as though they're under the protection
of the G.C. if they're not entitled to that protection."

The GC isn't the issue.

The UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, is.


Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/13/2007 1:07:20 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 1:36:07 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Fargle, please!
The "U.N." can go and stick it up their ass!
Noone cares what they say anymore!
Tell them to send a copy of that rubbish to al qeada!

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 6:59:27 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Fargle, please!
The "U.N." can go and stick it up their ass!
Noone cares what they say anymore!
Tell them to send a copy of that rubbish to al qeada!

popeye1250:
It appears that you are saying that your word and signature are just whim.
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 7:09:24 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		So, I take it all the geneva convention believers, would never take action into their own hands if they were personally wronged. I mean it is the same thing, a set of behaviours that are outlawed against your aggresor.

So, someone hacks your brothers head off with a sword, and laughs. Naw, I'm sure everyone here will treat them respectfully. Feed them 3 squares a day, and treat them fairly. Or someone blows your best friend to pieces. Sure, I'm sure everyone here is going to let him have his koran, and spew forth things like "I'm glad I killed your friend".

LOL, yeah, okay, I mean we all live under the law of the US, as much as the soldiers live under the dictates of the geneva convention.

So, I hope for the sake of hypocrisy, no one admonishing breaking the GC would walk outside the boundaries of imposed law.

It's a good treaty in theory, unfortunately people tend to start doing "uncivilized" things when their buddies legs get blown off.


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 7:21:29 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

So, I take it all the geneva convention believers, would never take action into their own hands if they were personally wronged. I mean it is the same thing, a set of behaviours that are outlawed against your aggresor.

So, someone hacks your brothers head off with a sword, and laughs. Naw, I'm sure everyone here will treat them respectfully. Feed them 3 squares a day, and treat them fairly. Or someone blows your best friend to pieces. Sure, I'm sure everyone here is going to let him have his koran, and spew forth things like "I'm glad I killed your friend".

LOL, yeah, okay, I mean we all live under the law of the US, as much as the soldiers live under the dictates of the geneva convention.

So, I hope for the sake of hypocrisy, no one admonishing breaking the GC would walk outside the boundaries of imposed law.

It's a good treaty in theory, unfortunately people tend to start doing "uncivilized" things when their buddies legs get blown off.




Do you know what the rule of law is and why it is so important in a civilized society? If you go around taking the law into your own hands then you are no better than a criminal.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:01:56 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

So, I take it all the geneva convention believers, would never take action into their own hands if they were personally wronged. I mean it is the same thing, a set of behaviours that are outlawed against your aggresor.
That is why we have cops courts and prisons.

So, someone hacks your brothers head off with a sword, and laughs. Naw, I'm sure everyone here will treat them respectfully. Feed them 3 squares a day, and treat them fairly. Or someone blows your best friend to pieces. Sure, I'm sure everyone here is going to let him have his koran, and spew forth things like "I'm glad I killed your friend".
When I was in the military I followed the GC and reported those who did not.  I had no friends only fellow warriors.  The oppositions point of view was none of my business.

LOL, yeah, okay, I mean we all live under the law of the US, as much as the soldiers live under the dictates of the geneva convention.
That would be my understanding...what exactly do you find laughable about it?

So, I hope for the sake of hypocrisy, no one admonishing breaking the GC would walk outside the boundaries of imposed law.
I too would hope so.

It's a good treaty in theory, unfortunately people tend to start doing "uncivilized" things when their buddies legs get blown off.
If you do not like the occupational safety hazards of bieng a thug then perhaps you should find a different line of work.
thompson



(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:21:48 AM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

So, I take it all the geneva convention believers, would never take action into their own hands if they were personally wronged. I mean it is the same thing, a set of behaviours that are outlawed against your aggresor.

So, someone hacks your brothers head off with a sword, and laughs. Naw, I'm sure everyone here will treat them respectfully. Feed them 3 squares a day, and treat them fairly. Or someone blows your best friend to pieces. Sure, I'm sure everyone here is going to let him have his koran, and spew forth things like "I'm glad I killed your friend".

LOL, yeah, okay, I mean we all live under the law of the US, as much as the soldiers live under the dictates of the geneva convention.

So, I hope for the sake of hypocrisy, no one admonishing breaking the GC would walk outside the boundaries of imposed law.

It's a good treaty in theory, unfortunately people tend to start doing "uncivilized" things when their buddies legs get blown off.



i hope to god i never think it's appropriate to torture someone else because they tortured a comrade of mine. the minute i do, i will gladly give you the gun and you can put a bullet in my head. :)

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:24:09 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

So, I take it all the geneva convention believers, would never take action into their own hands if they were personally wronged. I mean it is the same thing, a set of behaviours that are outlawed against your aggresor.

So, someone hacks your brothers head off with a sword, and laughs. Naw, I'm sure everyone here will treat them respectfully. Feed them 3 squares a day, and treat them fairly. Or someone blows your best friend to pieces. Sure, I'm sure everyone here is going to let him have his koran, and spew forth things like "I'm glad I killed your friend".

LOL, yeah, okay, I mean we all live under the law of the US, as much as the soldiers live under the dictates of the geneva convention.

So, I hope for the sake of hypocrisy, no one admonishing breaking the GC would walk outside the boundaries of imposed law.

It's a good treaty in theory, unfortunately people tend to start doing "uncivilized" things when their buddies legs get blown off.




Do you know what the rule of law is and why it is so important in a civilized society? If you go around taking the law into your own hands then you are no better than a criminal.


Julia, there are quite a few "uncivilised" countries in the world.
We, or the Geneva Convention signatory countries can't "force" those uncivilised countries into either joining or abiding by the rules of the G.C.
It was designed kind of like a "carrot and stick" approach, you get rewarded for good behavior, you get punished for bad behavior.
But you have to be "covered" under the rules of the G.C. i.e. you have to be a member to get the good stuff.
For those uncivilised countries becomming a signatory to the G.C. just isn't in their interests!
I don't see China signing up.
If we had a war with China would we treat their prisoners decently? Probably. But we're not "obligated" to unless their in the G.C.
If countries get the benefits of the G.C. without becomming a signatory to it, where is the impetus for them  to join?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:31:23 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I judge myself and my own people by a different standard than I do others popeye. I do not want to hear how civilized we are when our people get a blank check to be barbarous..act like a savage then own the label as far as I am concerned. If you want moral highground you cannot torture, otherwise you are no better than what you fight.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:33:50 AM   
mixielicous


Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		well thanks to everyone for their response. to the ones asking in the beginning of the thread how to help, well without organized protests, as you saw, writing is the way to go. and i cant tell you how many mailing lists i am on for petition notices. i will be trying some hand written letters myself in the near future.

and on the GC note, doesnt the fact that we were one of the last to sign it, doesnt that say something about it right there?

" The campaign then began to persuade the different countries to ratify the Convention. It was approved by Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Spain and Switzerland in 1864. They were followed by Britain (1865), Prussia (1865), Greece (1865), Turkey (1865), Austria (1866), Portugal (1866), Russia (1867), Persia (1874), Serbia (1876), Chile (1879), Argentina (1879) and Peru (1880).

Clara Barton, a nurse in the American Civil War, led the campaign to persuade the United States to sign the Geneva Convention. In 1877 Barton organized the American National Committee, which three years later became the American Red Cross. However, it was not until 1882 that the USA signed the Geneva Convention. It was also agreed to support Barton's efforts to distribute relief during floods, earthquakes, famines, cyclones and other peacetime disasters.

After the USA signed the Geneva Convention others followed including Bulgaria (1884), Japan (1886), Luxemburg (1888), Venezuela (1894), South Africa (1896), Uruguay (1900), Guatemala (1903), Mexico (1905), China (1906), Germany (1906), Brazil (1906), Cuba (1907), Panama (1907) and Paraguay (1907).

The Geneva Convention was amended and extended in 1906. After the First World War it was decided to further amend the convention. In 1929 a total of 47 nations agreed on rules about the treatment and rights of prisoners of war. "

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(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:34:45 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		popeye1250:
If you are a signator of the document then you are obligated to follow the rules whether the people you are fighting are signators or not.  Please read the document before you put your other foot in your mouth.
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:36:02 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I judge myself and my own people by a different standard than I do others popeye. I do not want to hear how civilized we are when our people get a blank check to be barbarous..act like a savage then own the label as far as I am concerned. If you want moral highground you cannot torture, otherwise you are no better than what you fight.


Julia, don't tell me, tell China or N.Korea. Or a bunch of other countries.
Your sentiments are nice but that's not how things work in the real world.
If you want to walk around with a morally superior attitude go right ahead.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:42:03 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		You do not get it popeye, if you have no problem with being uncivilized then fine, but just do not claim to be superior to the very people you are torturing.. you are not! That is just the reality of it. It is like justifying adultery because your spouse cheated... I mean we can all come up with excuses for our lack of integrity. My point is own what you do, take responsibility for it... call a spade a spade! Torturing is evil and wrong by my moral compass, and I am not going to give a free pass to torture one person because another person got tortured... it is wrong, plain and simple.

Now people can rationalize their behavior anyway they like, but it still is what it is.. no amount of projection will change what it is.

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:42:07 AM   
nissa


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/28/2007
From: Carson City Nevada
Status: offline 		. I have lost countless friends to this war. Each day that it drags on does nothing but bring me hope for the future. I support our troops there, and by doing so, I support this war.
 
Oh, and for anyone who wants an accurate fatality count, you can go here
http://icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx

edited because I can not spell

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(in reply to mixielicous)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 8:44:54 AM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nissa

. I have lost countless friends to this war. Each day that it drags on does nothing but bring me hope for the future.


Erm...so would it be a good idea to become another friend of yours?

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(in reply to nissa)
Profile   Post #: 60
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