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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:29:16 AM

ferryman777

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If anyone does protest we have what is called........Patriot Act 2..............
nuff said.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:30:26 AM

cyberdude611

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights SUPERCEDS the Geneva Conventions.

And they say what the US is doing is Just Wrong.

The Geneva Conventions are obsolete. It was designed to establish the rules of war between two nations and two armies. You rarely see that kind of warfare these days. These days you see a lot of terrorism, insurgents, and guirilla warfare. And these combatants don't give a flying f--- what the Geneva Conventions say. They dress as civilians. They hide behind civilians. They target civilians. But who gets the blame when a civilian is killed in the line of fire? The United States.

The Geneva Conventions is not designed to today's types of warfare.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:31:02 AM

farglebargle

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"We'd never win any wars!"

Get back to us when the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq is a War. Alberto Gonzales says it isn't a War.

Congress says it isn't a war.

Maybe we LOSE because we don't bother asking Congress for an Act of War?

Maybe we don't bother asking Congress because it's obvious that this fails the Gettysburg Address Test.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:33:23 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights SUPERCEDS the Geneva Conventions.

And they say what the US is doing is Just Wrong.

The Geneva Conventions are obsolete. It was designed to establish the rules of war between two nations and two armies. You rarely see that kind of warfare these days. These days you see a lot of terrorism, insurgents, and guirilla warfare. And these combatants don't give a flying f--- what the Geneva Conventions say. They dress as civilians. They hide behind civilians. They target civilians. But who gets the blame when a civilian is killed in the line of fire? The United States.

The Geneva Conventions is not designed to today's types of warfare.

I am not discussing the Geneva Conventions. They are a red-herring in the question, "Is the US behaving properly?" the UDHR is the litmus test.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:41:01 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

popeye, I am not going to argue the GC with you, I am going to state this very simply one more time, if you want to be better than those you fight, don't act like them.. pretty simple to understand isn't it? If you do the very same things as those whom you are fighting you are no better than they are.... if you have no problem with being barbarous and uncivilized then you can support the practice of torture, if you have a problem with it, then you will speak out against it like I do... pretty simple to understand.

If I find a loophole that makes it legal for me to murder someone, even someone I loathe, I am not going to do that regardless because I believe in the law that states it is wrong to murder. Now it might be technically legal (and I am not saying the GC does not apply, I think it does) but it would still be morally reprehensible to me. I feel the same way about torture, so even if you are correct, that means we need to close the loopholes because torture is wrong. Now you can try to weasle around that, but it is the way I see it

Julia, you're the one who's making the assumption that we're better than the ones we fight. Better how?
You're getting into a whole different area.
If I'm in the military and I kill an al qeada guy I don't need anyone to tell me that I'm "better" than him.
Am I supposed to feel "morally superior" to al qeada now?
It's not "murder" when our guys are in uniform on the battlefield being shot at by guys who are not in uniform!
I didn't write the Geneva Conventions.
They are what they are and not everyone is covered by them.
Are you saying that we should give "everyone" the benefits of the G.C.?
You can't hold the U.S. to "higher standards" than *everyone else*.
We'd never win any wars!

We just live in different worlds popeye. I believe that those who are in uniform often think they are fighting for lofty ideals, perhaps you are right, they do not care about ideals like freedom and human rights and the rule of law

Julia, then why don't you talk to some of them and ask them.
And if you go to Europe on vacation sometime you should probably leave that smug, morally superior American attitude behind.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:41:10 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
We just live in different worlds popeye. I believe that those who are in uniform often think they are fighting for lofty ideals, perhaps you are right, they do not care about ideals like freedom and human rights and the rule of law

I know exactly how you feel julia ... it would be nice to believe that fighting is done for all the right reasons, assuming there are right reasons, of course.

The ouch of reality. I know four men that are serving in Iraq. One is the officer I have mentioned a few times. I consider him a very honorable man ... very honorable. His overriding advice to me, is to make everything I read, pass the bullshit test. It's quite clear to me, that he isn't happy about being over there, and wishes we would have never gone. It's also clear that he thinks leaving now, would be an even greater mistake. My view on him is very slanted ... he is a lot older than me, and I really only know him via letters, email and one visit, but seem to be falling for him none the less.

Three guys I went to High School with, are over there ... one Marine, and two Army. I dont' know any of them all that well, but through mutual friends, I get the idea that they are having a great time. The guy that is a Marine, says there is nothing more fun than killing rag heads. One of the other guys sort of had a reputation as a "get 'em drunk and date rape 'em" sort of guy, and I shudder to think what he's doing over there. The third is a boyfriend of a good friend of mine, and she tells me he hopes we hurry up and invade Iran before he comes home in June.

What a world.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:42:22 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777

If anyone does protest we have what is called........Patriot Act 2..............
nuff said.

I have been followed by the government for my activism.... yes they scare me on some level, but you know what, it is worth it to express my freedoms... which is a lot more than most are willing to do. Lock me up, if we live in a police state now, I think everyone should know it.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:48:22 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights SUPERCEDS the Geneva Conventions.

And they say what the US is doing is Just Wrong.

The Geneva Conventions are obsolete. It was designed to establish the rules of war between two nations and two armies. You rarely see that kind of warfare these days. These days you see a lot of terrorism, insurgents, and guirilla warfare. And these combatants don't give a flying f--- what the Geneva Conventions say. They dress as civilians. They hide behind civilians. They target civilians. But who gets the blame when a civilian is killed in the line of fire? The United States.

The Geneva Conventions is not designed to today's types of warfare.

I am not discussing the Geneva Conventions. They are a red-herring in the question, "Is the US behaving properly?" the UDHR is the litmus test.

It seems that the anti-military types are the ones who are always bringing up the Geneva Conventions whenever our Troops do something they don't like.
They should probably READ the G.C. first, before they blow their big mouths off.
What's next, bake sales for al qeada?

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 9:54:39 AM

juliaoceania

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It seems to be you that is throwing around the GC popeye

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:00:16 AM

mixielicous

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Three guys I went to High School with, are over there ... one Marine, and two Army. I dont' know any of them all that well, but through mutual friends, I get the idea that they are having a great time. The guy that is a Marine, says there is nothing more fun than killing rag heads. One of the other guys sort of had a reputation as a "get 'em drunk and date rape 'em" sort of guy, and I shudder to think what he's doing over there. The third is a boyfriend of a good friend of mine, and she tells me he hopes we hurry up and invade Iran before he comes home in June.

What a world.

of my friends that i have over there, one keeps getting screwed and sent out for extra tours, one has been there since the war began and is so sick of it that well, is basically looking for anyway out ["could we possibly get him to smoke copious amounts of marijuana?"] and the third ended up marrying out of desperate isolation when he was stationed in MS on his "leaves" not even able to make it home to his friends......... they give me such a hopeful outlook for the spirits over seas

and julia maybe the tv show wasnt the best example, but my question still stands, what if taking the higher road isnt going to work and something immanent will happen? its theoretical, but not at all unlikely

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:05:24 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

, is basically looking for anyway out

Is there anything The Simpsons can't teach us?

Homer: Three simple words: "I am gay."

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:06:13 AM

juliaoceania

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My question is this, if a technique is shown to be unreliable why would you count on it? Torture is unreliable, we cannot rely on information gathered by its use, and it could in fact end up costing lives because bad information was relied upon that was obtained this way.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:08:47 AM

mixielicous

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Is there anything The Simpsons can't teach us?

Homer: Three simple words: "I am gay."

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

"lets just say hes a few prawns short of a galaxy"

barts commentary

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:10:30 AM

mixielicous

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so is just about any other "technique" we rely on.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:13:02 AM

ferryman777

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The military underlings are sold the 'lofty ideal' concept....and get paid well for the job they are called upon to perform; and knowing that in private enterprise they would have no respect, no gun, not as much pay, and certainly most likely not even a job. So the combination of all that, plus no accountability for the most part, except for derliction of duty and orders; and the power a gun gives them, makes one rather...invinicible.

I know several vets, and a few, have told me thus..."nowhere can I get the respect in the states, I carried a .45 on my hip, and I was in charge of this 2 million dollar tank, imagine me, not even with a high school dip. It was great to have this power."

There is a movie.....'The Return Of Captain Invincible' starring Alan Arkin. Therein, a general is called upon to make a speech..... He begins....."My fellow Americans, let me say this, about that; "BULLSHIT, bullshit bullshit, bull....shit, and further, Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, In conclusion let me add...Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit."

As for going anywhere overseas, better not have that smug, superior american attitude. Popeye is 110% correct.

I visited France, I was in awe of the country, I never had an 'American attitude', and I was treated exceptionally well, the people were fantastic, contrary to what I was told about the Frenchies, their rudeness, etc.; Fantastic was the country. And the food......"so that is what a strawberry tastes like....WOW, (I always thought strawberries tasted like cucumbers, and bread like a sponge, and sirloin like cardboard). I concluded that, if you go with the superior american attitude, you are going to get 'attitude' right back in you face; and rightly so.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:22:14 AM

ferryman777

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As for 'torture'; what do you expect, when the entire theatre of War is reducing humans to the state of animals, lower than animals. That's the way it is; there is no great cause' no principals, nothing ideal.

Ideals are sold by those who send the other guy to war. It's bullshit.

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:28:56 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

so is just about any other "technique" we rely on.

People who are intelligence assets give better information because they are motivated by greed or by some other motivation. Listening in on them is more reliable. Infiltrating their groups is more reliable.

Notice I said torture is unreliable... if I tortured you long enough I could get you to repeat back to me anything I liked, that is why it should not be used if for no other intrinsically moral reason. Basically it is selling our moral highground for nothing but something we cannot count on anyways... and that trade is unacceptable to me

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:32:53 AM

mixielicous

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

so is just about any other "technique" we rely on.

People who are intelligence assets give better information because they are motivated by greed or by some other motivation. Listening in on them is more reliable. Infiltrating their groups is more reliable.

Notice I said torture is unreliable... if I tortured you long enough I could get you to repeat back to me anything I liked, that is why it should not be used if for no other intrinsically moral reason. Basically it is selling our moral highground for nothing but something we cannot count on anyways... and that trade is unacceptable to me

i guess it doesnt matter what technique we use, the government can be well aware of an impeding event via more commonly accepted means, but they still wont utilize the information [9/11 wasnt that big of a surprise to them ya know]

which will bring us full circle ---- protest, do something

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RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] - 3/13/2007 10:33:23 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights SUPERCEDS the Geneva Conventions.

And they say what the US is doing is Just Wrong.

The Geneva Conventions are obsolete. It was designed to establish the rules of war between two nations and two armies. You rarely see that kind of warfare these days. These days you see a lot of terrorism, insurgents, and guirilla warfare. And these combatants don't give a flying f--- what the Geneva Conventions say. They dress as civilians. They hide behind civilians. They target civilians. But who gets the blame when a civilian is killed in the line of fire? The United States.
Wow...that sounds a lot like the american revolution.
thompson

The Geneva Conventions is not designed to today's types of warfare.