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non-service submission - 3/15/2007 9:05:12 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?
ex: Your tied to a cross and s/he picks up a cane, after one tap it dawns on you that your just not feeling it tonight. Do you/can you say nope, not feeling it?

ex: your busy (dinner, homework,taxes whatever) and your dom calls from across the house for you, only to find out once you rush there that they need some random thing (screwdriver, birthday card from last year from their mom, whatever) from some unknown location and need it now. What, you say no, you find it?

I'm not talking about bottoms, though I guess a nonservice sub could be considered a bottom. I mean someone that identifies as a submissive, but is under no obligation, desire, or request to attend to the needs, wants and whims of their dom. Are there a large number of d/s couples that this is not a part of their dynamic or would that be the minority here on CM? I know that in my rt location non service subs would be a minority, cause I haven't been able to find one in my area that would be okay saying no in either of those situations. Nor any doms that didn't requier that general and simple expression of submission.
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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 9:09:09 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?
ex: Your tied to a cross and s/he picks up a cane, after one tap it dawns on you that your just not feeling it tonight. Do you/can you say nope, not feeling it?

Yup.  My former owner encouraged and trained me to know when to say no to him and disobey.  He liked that I'd use my critical thinking skills to make what I considered the best choice.

This is a far cry from saying no willy-nilly, but it was definitely acceptable for me to voice discontent and even refuse orders.

quote:

ex: your busy (dinner, homework,taxes whatever) and your dom calls from across the house for you, only to find out once you rush there that they need some random thing (screwdriver, birthday card from last year from their mom, whatever) from some unknown location and need it now. What, you say no, you find it?

I let them know what the deal is and they decide which is the priority.  It would be very wrong of me to withhold information which I know they are lacking and/or which could change their decision.

I've also been known to say "How about I finish this up and then go get it?" and they were completely fine with it.

Doms/masters who get hung up on always being right or always being obeyed are missing the big picture IMO- it's about respect and adherence to the authority.  As long as you have that in place, the rest is just cool.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 9:24:33 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		Oh I totally understand the "I can't right now, when I'm done please" My intent in the op was more of the "willy-nilly" type "nope"... just not feeling it, not the i'm not in a good enough place to take a caning tonight. Of course we must all put our emotional and mental well being at the top of the priority list and it isn't fair to with hold that or any information from our partners regardless of lifestyle or dymanic. I am sorry I wasn't clear enough..... I meant the more flippant, self serving, "me" first refusal. I suppose lack of authority or no authority to answer to, would apply to my confusion concerning doms that did not requier that service.......... Or would that make some one that claimed to be a "non-service" submission nothing more than bottom? (maybe even a self glorified submissive, unable to admit they are a bottom)

< Message edited by MsParados -- 3/15/2007 9:30:08 PM >

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 9:29:15 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?
ex: Your tied to a cross and s/he picks up a cane, after one tap it dawns on you that your just not feeling it tonight. Do you/can you say nope, not feeling it?

ex: your busy (dinner, homework,taxes whatever) and your dom calls from across the house for you, only to find out once you rush there that they need some random thing (screwdriver, birthday card from last year from their mom, whatever) from some unknown location and need it now. What, you say no, you find it?



I'm under orders to disobey when I'm working on school stuff so I don't know if that counts as disobeying.

quote:



I'm not talking about bottoms, though I guess a nonservice sub could be considered a bottom. I mean someone that identifies as a submissive, but is under no obligation, desire, or request to attend to the needs, wants and whims of their dom. Are there a large number of d/s couples that this is not a part of their dynamic or would that be the minority here on CM? I know that in my rt location non service subs would be a minority, cause I haven't been able to find one in my area that would be okay saying no in either of those situations. Nor any doms that didn't requier that general and simple expression of submission.



Generally I do whatever he wants. There are times (when I'm sick, I've pulled a muscle, bedridden from cramps, etc) when I'll ask him if he really wants me to do it. Then, if he says yes I'll do it. Unless I'm so ill I think I'm likely to throw up while completing the task.  Luckily this hasn't ever happened.

Edited to Add: I will also ask if I can do it after I've completed what I'm doing (gardening, finishing up a quest in a game, some sewing, whatever I'm in the middle of).

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 3/15/2007 9:30:21 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 9:47:46 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
I am sorry I wasn't clear enough..... I meant the more flippant, self serving, "me" first refusal. I suppose lack of authority or no authority to answer to, would apply to my confusion concerning doms that did not requier that service.

It might be useful to again divorce the idea that servce = submission.

It doesn't matter what type of relationship you have, or what side of the slash you are on- if you create a dynamic together and then begin willy-nilly going crazy on that dynamic, there's going to be trouble.  This is true for the dom as much as it is for the slave.

That's why we have so many confused subs saying "Well he made all these rules and WAS so strict, but now he can't remember half of them and/or never pays attention"  A master who adheres willy-nilly to their expectations is just as damaging as a slave who does the same.

We must all serve the relationship together.
quote:


Or would that make some one that claimed to be a "non-service" submission nothing more than bottom? (maybe even a self glorified submissive, unable to admit they are a bottom)

I REALLY dislike the wording of this because it really sounds like you're saying bottoming is lower than submitting.

Someone who makes agreement to adhere their behavior to an expectation and then chooses not to do so is either insecure, scared, immature, confused or some combination of the above.  This includes subs who think it's ok to "test the dom" by disobeying.

So it's nothing to do with labels or calling someone a service oriented person or a bottom or delusional- it's just a person not owning up to the agreements they made.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 9:56:37 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Yes. In my relationship, I always have the right to say no, or I do not feel like it, or I wish to stop.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?
ex: Your tied to a cross and s/he picks up a cane, after one tap it dawns on you that your just not feeling it tonight. Do you/can you say nope, not feeling it?



_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.


(in reply to MsParados)
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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 10:08:13 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?

Unfortunately, this happens often with us.  I will tell Angel I want something done, and my reply is very often no, I cant. Sometimes it has to do with his school schedule and workload, others his stress evel and inability to emotionally commit to something that evening.  If it is said politely, then I accept and we plan for another try.  I have rainchecks more often than I have success in planning with him.
Submissives are people, like anyone else.  They are not always in the mood, such is life.  Personally I prefer someone who can tell me they arent in the mood to play or arent going to be on their game to serve for watever reason, ratehr than give a half hearted attempt to do something just becasue I told them to. I get far better service and far more fulfilling playtime when the moods are right for both parties.

DV 

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 10:22:09 PM   
viperess


Posts: 290
Joined: 11/6/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings,

As Masters slave if He needs something then yes even if i am in the middle of something His wants and needs will be met to the best of my ability at that moment, but that is just how i have been taught it is to be.

_____________________________

viperess slave of BlackTarnHeart
heart and chain sister to velvetvixen68

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 10:33:23 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		I guess in my mind if their is no service of any kind or only of convienence, I wonder what then are they submitting to?
Random rules and inconstant enforcement are not where my confusion lies. I know only too well the break down of order that brings.
I see no superiority in any roles or identifiers in wiitwd, I do however, take issue with people that can not call a spade; a spade. Hell when I first started out that was all I was capable of was topping or bottoming but I acknowledged what I was and was true to myself.  I just can not imagine a non service submissive, to me that would be a bottom, unless there was a condition of erotic/sexual  submission/service that would be the exception.  Where in that agreed apon dynamic of that relationship, where service of anyform is not required or expected.......
That could be an influencing factor........ i'm rambling ........anyway..
Really I can not see how service is not related to submission......


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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 10:41:22 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		I really do not see what you're trying to do here. Do you have an issuewith those who say no, or do you want more people you run into to say no when it's apropriate.

_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.


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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 11:11:04 PM   
smilingjaguar


Posts: 271
Status: offline 		Hmmm...

I cannot say no and have it absolutely stick without safewording, but he does respect my mind and my body.  If I am busy when he asks for something minor, I will sometimes remind him of what I am doing and ask which he wants done first.  This is mainly because he will forget that I'm buried in the taxes sometimes and ask for a Coke when it is more important that I finish the taxes.  Again, I may mention it, but it is his decision.

If I am sick or hurting (I have an ankle malformation and fusion that can be absolute hell on my bad days), I will let him know and let him know the severity of it.  I don't really have to refuse because he has very good judgment about these things usually.  One of the things I love most about him is that he is almost psychic in his ability to judge my state and whether I might be exaggerating for sympathy.  I wanted someone who would call me out on these things, so someone who just said OK whenever I wasn't in the mood would be a deal breaker.  I don't need constant supervision or correction, but I do need a strict person to submit to who will hold me accountable for my actions when they are less than emergent or health related. 

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 11:27:10 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have expressed when I did not feel like doing an activity. He is usually uber understanding of my feelings, I will still do as I am told if he tells me to do it regardless. Often I will have to tell him after the fact. If he asks me why I did not get X, Y, or Z accomplished I will tell him, the thing is I do not explain unless asked because this often annoys him more than not getting the thing he requested done in the first place. I think that he knows I have good reasons for not accomplishing the things he sets out for me, and if he is wondering why, he will ask.

I put forth a lot of effort to get things done the way he wants them done, but I do not always feel like it, and I can often see I might be of more service to delay doing what I am ordered to. An example would be ordering something that he has told me to obtain, if I find a better deal, or a more attractive item, I would put off ordering it until he had that information... he might still tell me to buy the thing he originally wanted me to, but I would show that I had a brain by delaying what I was told to do.

Sometimes being of service means not following the letter of the law, and thinking about what is meant by the order.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: non-service submission - 3/15/2007 11:34:28 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I guess in my mind if their is no service of any kind or only of convienence, I wonder what then are they submitting to?
Random rules and inconstant enforcement are not where my confusion lies. I know only too well the break down of order that brings.
I see no superiority in any roles or identifiers in wiitwd, I do however, take issue with people that can not call a spade; a spade. Hell when I first started out that was all I was capable of was topping or bottoming but I acknowledged what I was and was true to myself.  I just can not imagine a non service submissive, to me that would be a bottom, unless there was a condition of erotic/sexual  submission/service that would be the exception.  Where in that agreed apon dynamic of that relationship, where service of anyform is not required or expected.......
That could be an influencing factor........ i'm rambling ........anyway..
Really I can not see how service is not related to submission......




There are people who have agreed that they will only act upon their D/s roles in a sexual way. If the submissive has relinguished sexual control (within hard limits), and the dominant takes that control, this is D/s in my opinion. Their boundaries of what control is given and taken is consensually agreed upon for their relationship. There are many relationships that have much more structure than mine, have much more control than mine, but I do not see them as more intrinsically D/s than mine because of this...

If I were going to logically look at your view, someone who did not accept control over their career, vanilla familial relationships, and friendships, would not be "submissive" because they would be asserting control over their life. I do not think this is true

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/15/2007 11:35:12 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 2:35:31 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		i learned long ago that when it comes to some activities, i may not be in the mood but if i did it anyway i discovered that the mood came upon me.  If it didn't well, i'm here to serve so i served and i don't expect a medal for that. 

As a mom, i refused to put my own needs ahead of my biological units and simply became better organized so that i was never too busy or too involved with something that i could not attend to their needs even if it were to find the red barbie shoe that found itself under the couch.  Why would i not attend to the simple needs of my Dominant?

There are times when i am physically unable to comply and i have never felt uncomfortable stating that i want to but am unable to and work out a compromise.  In my previous relationship i was not allowed to use the word "no" at all but was encouraged to say "can we talk about it?" or "could we find a better time" or  even "my heart (or head) really isn't in this". 


_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 6:56:02 AM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		Feline, I really have no idea what I am doing in this thread either........ let me give you a little back ground that lead up to my original post.
I have been talking with a woman that identifies as a non service submissive, she is not interested in any kind of service what so ever or at least that is the claim that was made (what is said and what is done are another story)
So I said to her, "so your a bottom then" and was hit with a speech about the abilities of a non service sub, as if I had insulted her. I see some service as being a part of being a submissive, there has to be one area that you have to turn over your power in in order for you to be a submissive and if it isn't the day to day stuff or the bedroom, than what or how or where is it that you do give up or over........
I apologize if I am not making much sense but I am having a really hard time processing this train of thinking......

Blessed be and go in peace,
Rhiannon

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)
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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 7:05:52 AM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		If I were going to logically look at your view, someone who did not accept control over their career, vanilla familial relationships, and friendships, would not be "submissive" because they would be asserting control over their life. I do not think this is true




Julia, I disagree with your opinion about my view, your over analizing it.


I mean a situation with NO service what so ever, no turning over your body or mind on request, not a one.... doing what you want, how you want, when you want period.
The way I see it, if you are turning over your ability to choose, at the very least n one part of your life, but something whether it's sexual or not you are supplying a service to your dom. If service isn't synomous with submissive than I'm just totally lost on my defination of the term......

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 7:45:44 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I don't say no to him.  Willy Nilly or not (although he's not in the habit of wasting his time or mine with willy-nillies), if he called me at 3am and told me to bring him a cup of tea, off I would go.  If I see a barrier or "issue" with what he is expecting, it is my obligation to tell him.  Example, he has ordered me to go to school and do well (meaning get As).  The day before the exam, he might forget that I have an exam the next day and start listing off things he wants me to do/focus on that night.  It is my obligation to tell him yes of course I will do it, but does he remember I have an exam?  And to ask which he would rather I focus on.  And then that's what I do.  But if he uses my time before an exam on anything other than studying for it, he also accepts I may not get that A.  He makes the choices; I follow them.

Also, similarly to Julia's example, he once wanted me to purchase something for him.   I knew he thought the item was around $125.  The best price I could find was $260.  Rather than just buy it, I waited until we spoke again and clarified whether or not he wanted it bought, knowing the actual price now.  He did not.

I do as told and use my brain while doing so.  He still makes the decisions.  But even the "silliest" looking directives are not dismissed as silly.  He has his reasons and I trust that.  If I were the one choosing what I submit to and what I don't, I would not be his slave.

(in reply to MsParados)
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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 8:25:34 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
I guess in my mind if their is no service of any kind or only of convienence, I wonder what then are they submitting to?

My point is what we ALL provide service to eachother and we ALL need to stick to our commitments and expectations to a reasonable level.  If a master only dominates when it's convenient, the relationship will fail.  If a slave only submits when it's convenient, the relationship will fail. (unless the relationship is built on the expectation that it IS a matter of convenience, but that's a different story).

Since you need a sub who will provide X service consistently, you need one who will do so, not one who will provide X service only on Y days.  Your sub will likely need a dom who provides Y for the relationship consistently, not one who will provide Y only on X days.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MsParados)
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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 8:38:43 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?


for this slave, it is the difference between "submissive" and "slave".
 
"submissive" retains control, or authority over themselves and their lives, by way of hard and soft limits, safewords, outside interests, etc.  they enter into an agreement with a Dominant that limits the Dom/me as to what, when, where, with who or how S/He can and cannot do with them, for them or about them. 
 
some view that as service.
this slave views that as a "lifestyle submissive" or "bottom".
 
slave surrenders all control, authority, etc. to serve the Master/Mistress that owns them---there is no "I" in slave.  there are no scenes, whims, family, friends or obligation that Master/Mistress doesn't have the right to direct as S/HE sees fit.
 
this slave views that as submissive service to another, or "slave", whether they refer to themselves as slave, submissive or purple spotted goat.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/16/2007 8:39:52 AM >

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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 9:13:28 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		In my world: A slave always has the right to obey...or not. There may or may not be consequences...and they are usually dependent on what they are saying no to.

Master Fire


_____________________________

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