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if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 10:32:49 AM   
mixielicous


Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		if it is a hoax, please explain the before and after shots of polar ice caps, the himalayas and mt everest. if this is a hoax, why is melting occuring?

if you say they are global temperatures that are following a pattern, well that doesnt dispute the fact that we are in the 'warming' part of the curve.


for those of you who dont believe in global warming, i am interested in your explanations [popeye, realone, edit to add lordandmaster]

and on the al gore pledge front, i assume he has a massive house, no? if so, how do we expect a man with a mansion to take a pledge to use the average amount of energy when the size of his house is far from average?

< Message edited by mixielicous -- 3/22/2007 10:54:08 AM >

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 10:41:01 AM   
puella


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Status: offline 		Hi mixielicious,

It is not a hoax, the vast majority of scientists agree that Global warming is a serious issue.  Also, almost all of those who do not are funded by special interest lobbyist groups for Oil and Coal companies.

Later in his testamony Gore both confronted the issue about having a big house (he has opted to pay more to use all renewable energy sources, and that took  while for him to complete because not all states allow for that .. believe it or not.)  Secondly, he proposed realigning the tax structure to allow for compensation to low income families to defer the cost that this would bring to them.

There is also the fact that he has never said that everyone has to be absolutely perfectly green.  Doing what you can is far better than doing nothing at all.

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 10:46:38 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
for those of you who dont believe in global warming, i am interested in your explanations
The issue is not the global warming, but the questionable assertion that it is caused by the increasing carbon dioxide levels.

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 10:49:51 AM   
mixielicous


Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		oooh, you have a simpsons quote too! hehehe

as someone who grew up 100% OFF the grid, i find what gore is doing to be inspirational. and the fact that green rescources arent permitted 100% accross the board, is horrific.

people dont realize how much switching your hall lights [i will admit the color of the light is atrocious, so we only use them in low traffic areas or for flood lights coz they drain so damn much] or doing a laundry in cold water really can add up!



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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 10:51:08 AM   
mixielicous


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From: Boston area, Massachusetts
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
for those of you who dont believe in global warming, i am interested in your explanations
The issue is not the global warming, but the questionable assertion that it is caused by the increasing carbon dioxide levels.

you wouldnt consider that a safe assumption to make then?

what else would you attribute it to? there is no denying that with more people comes C02

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:02:42 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Mix, the earth has been warming and cooling since our ancesters were pond scum.
I don't think there's much in nature that remains "static."
Everything in nature is dynamic (changing) all the time.
Just because man has come to see some of those changes doesn't mean they're "bad" just that they're natural.
Also the sun plays an enourmous part in our weather and climactic changes and there's nothing mankind can do about that.
Of course there are people who think they can use these facts to their own advantage to get the Taxpayer's money by selling us on their ideas.
The "U.N." comes to mind immediately but there are others.
I mean what in hell does the "U.N." have to do with "global warming?" That would be like calling the Girl Scouts "experts" on heart transplants.
I wouldn't call this stuff so much of a "hoax" as I would a money scam. If you examine all of these "global warming" scemes they all have one thing in common, extracting more money from Taxpayers pockets!
The "U.N." would just take that money and it would just be a giant transferral of wealth to third world countries and nothing would be done about "global warming."
They don't have a good track record anyway, they STILL can't find that $22-$24 Billion in "Oil for Food" money!
I mean how does someone "lose" $22-$24 Billion dollars???
I strongly suspect that most of it is in Swiss bank accounts.
I could never understand how anyone with an i.q. over 80 could believe anything the "U.N." says in the first place. That would be right up there with believing in the Easter Bunny!
As for The Reverand Al Gore he seems to have one of those obsessive personalities.
If you actually listen to him all he's spouting is emotional rhetoric.
I mean he REALLY DOES sound like a Preacher warming up the flock to open up their wallets!
Mix, in politics and a lot of other things, *ALWAYS FOLLOW THE $MONEY$!!! You'll never go wrong!

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:15:06 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
you wouldnt consider that a safe assumption to make then?

It is merely a guess that the warming is caused by the increase in carbon dioxide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
there is no denying that with more people comes C02
Quite. But there are all kinds of homeostatic mechanisms that will cause a new equilibrium to be established.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous
what else would you attribute it to?
The magnetic poles are moving rapidly. A changing magnetic field will cause electric currents inside the Earth. Wires that carry a current heat up. Hence the warming up is caused by the interior of the Earth heating up. It is unlikely that it has anything to do with the increase in carbon dioxide levels.

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/22/2007 11:16:30 AM >

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:17:27 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Mixie, it could also be part of the natural cycle of heating and cooling we know the earth goes through, we are technically still in the last ice age. It could also be because of a change in the Sun... Mars, Venus and Jupiter also appear to be heating up.  It could be that we are in a slightly less dense region of space so more heat hits us.  It could be that the Earth was naturally warming( we know it was hotter around 800-2000 years ago) and a couple of huge Volcanoes caused a temporary colling effect( We actually know this to be true) and as it wears off the temps shoot back up.  It could be a combination of these things along with Mans Co2 output.  Or the Co2 could be up because of the natural warming.  It is apperantly not a safe enough assumption for Gore to get a smaller home

So the question is what do we do about it.  From the Kyoto treaty we can plainly see that the World and Scientists do not consider it a real problem, or else they would not exempt large portions of the globe.  All Kyoto will do is move industry to the exempt places( China, India, Africa) faster, increasing the CO2 and other actually harmfull pollution.   So the supporters of Kyoto (who all have clear Political reasons for supporting)  seem to put other goals above actually lowering Greenhouse gas emmisions, to me indicates they do not consider it to be a serious threat.

That being said, by all means, lets get greener energy.  Quit wasting time and energy on the Net, get a part time job and put a windmill on your roof, oh wait thats work and not as fun as being an activist.  Not sexy at all.  There are many good reasons to convert and conserve with out the nonsene of Kyoto.

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:31:46 AM   
mixielicous


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1


That being said, by all means, lets get greener energy. Quit wasting time and energy on the Net, get a part time job and put a windmill on your roof, oh wait thats work and not as fun as being an activist. Not sexy at all. There are many good reasons to convert and conserve with out the nonsene of Kyoto.

oh wind power, some day LOL i am from cape cod where the proposed wind farm wants to set up, what a travesty they cant deal with thumb sized windmills on the horizon, not to mention the economic stimulation it would provide... if you cant tell hehe i was a strong advocate. me and some friends got all the hot shots from both sides to come to our town for a discussion panel, but the plan still seems to be stuck in the mud, more than 7 years later


but there are much more simple things that wind power an everyday person can do. people assume its this huge ordeal, being energy conscience. how sad.

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:33:14 AM   
mixielicous


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Status: offline 		so you main gripe i take it, is not the "global warming" per say, but all the $$ it extracts in the name of research?

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:36:24 AM   
littlesarbonn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Mixie, it could also be part of the natural cycle of heating and cooling we know the earth goes through,



This is significant because this is usually where the counter argument against global warming appears. The problem of the whole lack of debate is that neither side actually addresses the other but addresses the fallacies of the other side and then claim that makes the actual science part of the other side also irrelevant. Example: Counter global warming enthusiasts make the claim that the planet goes through cycles, and we may just be in one of the cycles. That's a great START of an argument, but they end it there and then close their ears to actually debating the rest of the point by point information. The pro global warming enthusiasts keep pointing to changed polar ice caps and then when this argument about cycling natures of planets show up, they cast if off as "non-science" which isn't actually true, and then they continue to talk about the "scientists" on the other side as either nonexistent (which they do exist) or flawed. This is a major part of the reason why you're not going have consensus because so few people are willing to actually entertain both sides of the issue. Of the few that do, they're considered "extremists" on the other side, depending upon which side the critic is that makes the claim.


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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:44:21 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Mixie, it could also be part of the natural cycle of heating and cooling we know the earth goes through,



This is significant because this is usually where the counter argument against global warming appears. The problem of the whole lack of debate is that neither side actually addresses the other but addresses the fallacies of the other side and then claim that makes the actual science part of the other side also irrelevant. Example: Counter global warming enthusiasts make the claim that the planet goes through cycles, and we may just be in one of the cycles. That's a great START of an argument, but they end it there and then close their ears to actually debating the rest of the point by point information. The pro global warming enthusiasts keep pointing to changed polar ice caps and then when this argument about cycling natures of planets show up, they cast if off as "non-science" which isn't actually true, and then they continue to talk about the "scientists" on the other side as either nonexistent (which they do exist) or flawed. This is a major part of the reason why you're not going have consensus because so few people are willing to actually entertain both sides of the issue. Of the few that do, they're considered "extremists" on the other side, depending upon which side the critic is that makes the claim.


Bravo.

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 11:56:56 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Rule, good observation, I forgot about the Poles changing as well!
Just about anything the earth does causes heat!
Mix, we're at the point right now that the scammers are still in their "selling" mode, that is they're still trying to sell the gullable on their ideas.
Just like any good Preacher The Reverand Al Gore will start using "guilt induction" anytime now. We're starting to see a little of it, "don't do it for you, do it for your children, grandchildren, fill in the blank.
I used to be a trained Salesman and this is a classic pitch!
Watch for what we used to call "porcupine" questions, questions that you can't answer "NO" to.
"Don't you want to protect your family?"
"Don't you want to stop pollution?"
"Wouldn't you be willing to pay 2 cents more per gallon for CLEAN AIR  so that your children can BREATHE?"
That kind of stuff.
Who can say "NO" to those questions?
They're called "leaders",  leading questions. You "lead" the prospect where you want him to go.
That kind of thing in Sales is called "Closing" getting the schmuck,... er "customer" to sign on the dotted line.
What The Reverand Al and others are trying to do is a classic Sales tactic!
"Do what WE say or your children will die!"
Oh, another thing, if we're "running out of oil" as some of the nutballs say then why should we even be worrying about "Global warming?"
There are just too many holes in that "global warming" scam and too many charletons lining up to try to make MONEY off of it!
Mix, just say "No Thankyou" and hang up the phone on these Salesmen.
Our congress shouldn't be wasting our time or money allowing people like Gore to go before a congressional committee to try to get our taxdollars!
Mix, when's the last time you or anyone you know were invited to address a congressional committee?

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 12:00:38 PM   
mixielicous


Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		what if..................



leave it to your imagination


what if they end up being right? maybe not by the mode, but about the end result? what IF this time it is not a cycle [maybe part of, but then continues to exceed cyclic nature]

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 12:08:14 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		I pesonally would be happy to pay more for a fuel source that would lessen the damage...It is a rediculous notion to just assume that what we do is "natural"...We can't seem to grasp our planet as a finite area...Is there global warming...Yes, is it caused by us/our emmissions?...Difficult to say...But to suggest that we don't have an effect is short sighted....Our ocean's fish now have advisories...As do those in the Great Lakes....How can you disrupt a body of water that big?...Because though vast it is not infinite and it cannot cleans the crap we throw into it....I can only imagine the same holds true for our atmosphere....You may not like the message...You may hate the messenger...But irregardless the gist of the message is "let's clean up our act" and no one should have an argument over that.

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 12:11:50 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Mixie, it could also be part of the natural cycle of heating and cooling we know the earth goes through, we are technically still in the last ice age. It could also be because of a change in the Sun... Mars, Venus and Jupiter also appear to be heating up.  It could be that we are in a slightly less dense region of space so more heat hits us.  It could be that the Earth was naturally warming( we know it was hotter around 800-2000 years ago) and a couple of huge Volcanoes caused a temporary colling effect( We actually know this to be true) and as it wears off the temps shoot back up.  It could be a combination of these things along with Mans Co2 output.  Or the Co2 could be up because of the natural warming.  It is apperantly not a safe enough assumption for Gore to get a smaller home

So the question is what do we do about it.  From the Kyoto treaty we can plainly see that the World and Scientists do not consider it a real problem, or else they would not exempt large portions of the globe.  All Kyoto will do is move industry to the exempt places( China, India, Africa) faster, increasing the CO2 and other actually harmfull pollution.   So the supporters of Kyoto (who all have clear Political reasons for supporting)  seem to put other goals above actually lowering Greenhouse gas emmisions, to me indicates they do not consider it to be a serious threat.

That being said, by all means, lets get greener energy.  Quit wasting time and energy on the Net, get a part time job and put a windmill on your roof, oh wait thats work and not as fun as being an activist.  Not sexy at all.  There are many good reasons to convert and conserve with out the nonsene of Kyoto.


Mix, "what if?"
Look at the things that Luckydog pointed out.
The problem for the charletons and scammers is that they can't make money off of those things that he mentioned.
Look at the thing that the scammers latched onto.
That's the one thing that they CAN make money off of!
Cooincidence?

Mix, "what if?"
That's a classic Sales pitch too!
"But I don't need insurance."
"What if you had no life insurance and died and your family had to sell the house?" (That's called "overcomming an objection")
"Would you want that to happen?" ("Porcupine!")
"Well,.....no."
"I didn't think so, so now I can HELP you." ("Closing")
Of course the odds of that happening are something like  1 in 2,000 or whatever so you can see why insurance companies make *so much money*!
What I'm saying is that I see that same "Sales Pitch" from the "global warming" scammers and charletons.
In business the *REALLY BIG* money isn't made by engineers, accountants etc but by the SALES PEOPLE!
Mix, think about it, if someone is trying to SELL you something what's the usual reason for that?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/22/2007 12:24:00 PM >

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 12:14:46 PM   
mixielicous


Posts: 1283
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From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline 		October 16, 2006

It seems Virginia is jumping out in front for E-85 ethanol fuel dispensing. Governor Timothy M Kaine accepted an E85 capable Chevrolet Tahoe today at an event in Richmond Virginia celebrating the opening of Virginia’s new state owned and operated

E85 ethanol fuel dispensing facility. General Motors provided this vehicle as part of their new campaign, Governors’ Ethanol Coalition, to promote ethanol and E85-capable vehicles in the state. They want to open as many new E85 pumps across Virginia this year as possible.

GM now has partnerships to open new E85 ethanol fueling stations with eleven states. GM is going to be replacing their old gas caps with a new Bright yellow one, to indicate an E85 capable vehicle. Their newest slogan to promote vehicles capable of using E85 is “Live Green Go Yellow”. So if you have a GM vehicle with a yellow gas cap you may use E85 fuel in your tank. So far there are over 1000 E85 fuel stations in the US, and growing yearly. The more we as consumers make an effort to choose earth friendly vehicles, the more we can make a difference.

E85 fuel stations can be found in these states so far.

Arizona, California, Colorado, DC, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming. For more information go to http://www.ethanol.org/

*

At the Chicago Auto Show, Ford Motor Company said that it will launch the beginnings of a “Midwest Ethanol Corridor”—expanding E85 ethanol fuel availability in Illinois and Missouri this year by about one-third via its ongoing partnership with VeraSun Energy. The company is planning actions to increase the availability of ethanol in neighboring states as well.

*

* Ford was the first manufacturer to market a low CO 2 bio-ethanol powered car in Europe in 2001
* New generation 1.8-litre Ford Focus Flexi-Fuel model is launched in Sweden along with, for the first time, the Focus C-MAX Flexi-Fuel
* These Flexi-Fuel cars demonstrate Ford's commitment to market environmentally friendly, yet highly affordable technologies
* Close co-operation between Ford, the bio-fuel industry and the Swedish government makes sustainable mobility a realistic goal

*

apparently though, not good enough for us

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 12:19:29 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I'm really puzzled by this.

Does anyone deny that CO2 levels in the atmosphere have increased from about 280ppm in 1800 to better than 360ppm today?

Does anyone deny that the change in CO2 has as a result an air mix that retains more heat?

Does anyone have a source for most of this CO2 other than human burning of hydrocarbons?

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 12:31:27 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

if it is a hoax, please explain the before and after shots of polar ice caps, the himalayas and mt everest. if this is a hoax, why is melting occuring?

if you say they are global temperatures that are following a pattern, well that doesnt dispute the fact that we are in the 'warming' part of the curve.


for those of you who dont believe in global warming, i am interested in your explanations [popeye, realone, edit to add lordandmaster]

and on the al gore pledge front, i assume he has a massive house, no? if so, how do we expect a man with a mansion to take a pledge to use the average amount of energy when the size of his house is far from average?


i do not disagree that we are in a warming cycle, that is a natural warming cycle. 

We are going through a natural global warming cycle at this time no one has differentiated between how much is natural and how much is man made.

It is just assumed or presented that man is the great evil and until i can see at least something that shows how much is natural and how much is man there and taking into consideration that after reviewing the carbon cycle thanks to a link from julia the earth should self regulate. That is even with the increased co

So far i have not found anything to reasonably dispute my position.

That and since the un is pushing for it as usual i look to see who would profit from a major expenditure that would be imposed on us all and as usual huge business.

If the charts are reasonably correct that i have seen we shouldnt have any ice on the planet any more if in fact co2 is really the source of the problem as it is presented.

Until someone can show me data that disputes this i have no reason to believe it is we "man" that is the major cause of this and i have no reason that anything short of exterminating ourselves would have that big of an effect on this planet over the next 30 years, since there is only 30 years worth of oil left on this earth anyway.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/22/2007 12:33:28 PM >

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RE: if its a hoax, please explain - 3/22/2007 12:32:23 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Look at the thing that the scammers latched onto.
That's the one thing that they CAN make money off of!


Popeye,
There are many more than one. Investment firms are geared up to offer a large range of stocks in companies perceived as "green". 

I'm into about a 1/2 dozen stocks in the rapidly expanding "green industry" sector. Sold off all the "sub prime" financial companies in November after the election and as a result I'm up nearly $100k. Thinking about buying a big 8 cylinder Hummer with the profits.

I know it is small potatoes compared to Mr. Gore and his boys, but the 'crumbs' are very satisfying and appreciated. Hope that the head bobbing continues!

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