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The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:13:20 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		A thread to:

a) Draw a line between the left and the right and

b) To further understanding of each others' point of view.

This isn't about models and individuals i.e. levels of tax and spend, Hitler and Stalin etc - this is more a question of concept and ideas i.e. what are the underlying values of the left and the right? how do we view the world and humanity?





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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:16:27 PM   
mixielicous


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Status: offline 		i guess i dont know enough about either, coz i cant even BS a reply, LOL

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:22:49 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Excellent thread, NG, if we can keep it on a high plain.

I basically see the "left/right" model as easy short-hand, but dangerously simplistic.

Over all, I see people divided into two overall camps of Apollian beliefs, and
Dionysian beliefs.

Other ways to see it are as "Realists" and "Idealist", but not with the negative connotations that those terms sometimes bring to the table.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/22/2007 1:32:15 PM >

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:31:12 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Realists and idealists......what about those with a different point of view who also see themselves as realists (even though it may not be your idea of realism)?

This thread isn't about labelling someone as a realist or an idealist - it is about, in their heart, at their core, where is the difference between the left and the right - labels are out of place here..

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:34:16 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Which is why I said "without the negative connotations".  It's not about labelling people, it's about identifying basic thought processes and belief systems.

Trying to talk about basic belief systems without some sort of labels will be exceeding difficult.  The goal should be to make them non-derogatory.

FirmKY


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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:40:37 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		You could also label them "Logical" and "Emotional", but I like Nietzche's concepts of Apollonian and Dionysian:

Apollonian and Dionysian are terms used by Nietzsche in The Birth of Tragedy to designate the two central principles in Greek culture. The Apollonian, which corresponds to Schopenhauer's principium individuationis ("principle of individuation"), is the basis of all analytic distinctions. Everything that is part of the unique individuality of man or thing is Apollonian in character; all types of form or structure are Apollonian, since form serves to define or individualize that which is formed; thus, sculpture is the most Apollonian of the arts, since it relies entirely on form for its effect. Rational thought is also Apollonian since it is structured and makes distinctions.

The Dionysian, which corresponds roughly to Schopenhauer's conception of Will, is directly opposed to the Apollonian. Drunkenness and madness are Dionysian because they break down a man's individual character; all forms of enthusiasm and ecstasy are Dionysian, for in such states man gives up his individuality and submerges himself in a greater whole: music is the most Dionysian of the arts, since it appeals directly to man's instinctive, chaotic emotions and not to his formally reasoning mind.

Nietzsche believed that both forces were present in Greek tragedy, and that the true tragedy could only be produced by the tension between them. He used the names Apollonian and Dionysian for the two forces because Apollo, as the sun-god, represents light, clarity, and form, whereas Dionysus, as the wine-god, represents drunkenness and ecstasy.

 
"Drunkenness" is not a negative concept in this system:  It is a total commitment and abandonment to the senses, or an idea, above self, above control.

I think you can start to understand where a lot of people come from, by looking at how their actions and belief fit into this schema.

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/22/2007 1:46:39 PM >

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:42:46 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Firmhand, surely you think there is more to the left and right than a question of realism? You must do. Think about it and get a post up....what do you, as a right-winger, feel at your core i.e. what drives your political viewpoint......or are you simply realistic? Firmhand, a burrow owl is realistic when it's building a nest.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:44:48 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Well for instance, I support free trade WTO ect( despite its many problems) because it has been shown that economic integration lessens the chance of War.  For instance the Spy plane thing with China back in 01 or02.  That is the sort of things that wars start over, but no one actually considered it.  We are dependant on the Chinese, and they on us.  Europe after ww2 is another example.  The USA used the Marshall plan to force western Europe to economically integrate.  Now war between Germany and France is unthinkable.  The Pipeline connectin Pakistan/India/Afghanistan is a piece of brilliance real diplomacy on Bushes part.  The more we can tie these nations together, the less likley they are to start tossing nukes.  Remeber they were doing tit for tat testing on each others borders under the previous administration.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:48:46 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Another is the Market.  I support the market( to a reasonable extent) as the best way to meet most peoples needs.  I think it is better to have a system where someone gets rich from making sure everyone has enough to eat, than being dependant on someones kindness/sense of duty to eat.   Getting paid for feeding people is a much greater inducement to feeding as many as possible, than a warm moral feeling at the ende of the day.  It also pushes people to excell, which results in greater benefits for the populace at large.  It also allows people with a special talent to prosper from it.  Sure there are drawbacks, and not everything should be Market based, but much should be.  I haven't found a better system yet, despite 30 years of looking.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:48:52 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A thread to:

a) Draw a line between the left and the right and

b) To further understanding of each others' point of view.

This isn't about models and individuals i.e. levels of tax and spend, Hitler and Stalin etc - this is more a question of concept and ideas i.e. what are the underlying values of the left and the right? how do we view the world and humanity?


IMO the Left is all about killing innocent children, and sparing convicted criminal adults, letting big wasteful government "take care" of every little problem that might plague society, and most of all, it represents appeasement, and the lack of fortitude to stand up for themselves.

While the right should represent the polar opposite, but doesn't always do so, like our current administration.

As for the world, it's here for our use as the dominant species.

And finally humanity, we are truly great at two things, reproducing and killing, and it's just a matter of time before #2 overcomes #1

There will never be a lasting peace between countries, there will always be the haves and the have-nots, and the have-nots will always covet what the haves have.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:53:05 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Gent, any room for Independants?
I like things from both the Right and the Left but not all from either.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 1:54:57 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Getting paid for feeding people is a much greater inducement to feeding as many as possible, than a warm moral feeling at the ende of the day. 



Here's a titbit for you......to the right (as highlighted above), the world is about money......nothing gets done without money. To the left, the world is about co-operation, nothing worth doing gets done without co-operation....right or wrong?

Or are you a minority of right wingers? maybe.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 2:07:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Firmhand, surely you think there is more to the left and right than a question of realism? You must do. Think about it and get a post up....what do you, as a right-winger, feel at your core i.e. what drives your political viewpoint......or are you simply realistic? Firmhand, a burrow owl is realistic when it's building a nest.


I do not consider myself a "right winger", NG.

My view is that we all have twin drives in our beliefs: the analytical, and the emotional.  Having one without the other means nothing.  Just as I believe that having all "liberals" in charge of a society would be catastrophic, I believe that having all "conservatives" in charge would be just as catastrophic, albeit in a different way.

And, its not really about the labels, as you said.  For example, the Jesuit order is a very Apollonian group within a larger Dionysian organization: the Catholic Church.

Apollonian is about reason and logic.  A Realist.  But a "Realist" can turn into a cynic with no soul, or being or person with no motivation, or desire to change.

Dionysian is about the emotional, and the inner drive, about Idealism to change, and grow and experience.  But an Idealist can be unrealistic, and lose contact with reality and accept fantasy as the basis of actions.

It is the effective synergy of the two that makes for effective people, effective societies, and effective politicians. (And art?)

You can take most systems of beliefs, and identify which of the two broad streams to which they belong, or you can identify parts of each in a belief system.

Take atheist, for example.  Some, you can classify some quite well as very Apollonian, very rational, very scientific, very point by point.  To others, it's a belief system much like a religion, and they base their "disbelief" on ... belief! ... or Dionysian precepts.

When I read people's words on the forums, or I listen to them in person, there are certain clues about which side of the A/D divide that they fall on - "I feel" is a clear sign of a primarily Dionsysian "feeler".  "I think ..." very much an Apollonian "thinker". 

People are much more complex - usually - than a simply categorization into one of the other group would give you.  But listening and watching, based on the division will often teach you were they are primarily centered.

FirmKY


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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 3:19:15 PM   
darkinshadows


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I am a little confused on the 'question'.
Are you asking what is my perception of the differences.  or are you stating a difference ie
 
quote:

to the right (as highlighted above), the world is about money......nothing gets done without money. To the left, the world is about co-operation, nothing worth doing gets done without co-operation....

and asking if that is correct.
If it is the second, I disagree.
If it is the first, I would say there is not difference, only in the way they go about things is different, or rather, their manipulation is different.  The end result is still the same.  To be the one in control.


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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 6:39:40 PM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What are the underlying values of the left and the right?

For starters, I think that the Right is more concerned with
tradition and preserving the past.  And the Left is more
concerned with new possibilities and planning for the future.
 
I think that the Independents are more pragmatic and focused
on the present.

How do we view the world and humanity?

I think that the Right is more concerned with what happens within their own home, hearth and neighborhood.  The Left is more concerned with larger issues in the rest of the world.  The Independents want a minimum amount of interference in their lives from Big Government.



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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 6:42:57 PM   
redpetals


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Status: offline 		the right is for less government up your ass the left is for more..

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 7:16:16 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Both sides, instead of drawing a line ... would rather have a real length of line, with which to hang the other side.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 7:53:43 PM   
Tristan


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Status: offline 		I think the left and right is just another version of yin and yang.  What is yin and yang?  I've heard it described in different ways, but maybe masciline and feminine are good words.  Masciline being the active and feminine being the receptive. 

Conservatives tend to err on the active side.  George and Iraq is a good example.  Liberals tend to err on the receptive side.  Mike Dukakus and Willy Horton is a good example.  Mike had a passion for letting convicted killers free from prison unsupervised.  Really bad things happened to a few people.  Without a balance, both sides are equally destructive.

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 7:56:31 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

he right is for less government up your ass the left is for more..


I'm not at all sure that's accurate. When it comes to how citizens use their own bodies, the right is far more likely to favor the government's being, as you so elegantly put it, "up your ass."

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RE: The left and the right...... - 3/22/2007 8:08:34 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		They are both necessary for the country to run....But I view the right as conformists and the left as free thinkers.


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