Padriag
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Joined: 3/30/2005
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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Sounds fair enough, Padraig. The only points I will add are this:
1) At their core, the two main political parties in Britain are currently right-wing in practice. They advocate market democracy over genuine democracy driven by mass participation and equality of opportunity. Also, when it comes to international relations, the left are pacifists - we don't see nations as competitors, we see people as the same the world over with establishments taking the piss. Hence, my earlier comment that using the two main parties as a means of comparing left and right isn't going to amount to much. I think you're saying the same thing.
One of the reasons I found this difficult, is that, "straddling an ocean" as I do, I see differences between the ideology of the Left and Right in Europe (at least Germany and Ireland which I'm most familiar with) and similar groups in the US. That geographic separation seems to have engendered other differences as well. That difference in history and the evolution of these parties and their left or right views may account for the differences with European concepts and goals among the left and right. It is true also that each of these nations is faced with different issues, and these differing environments have accordingly altered goals and values. That is to say, I'm not sure there is a universal or worldwide Left or Right... though there are some commonalities to found.
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2) Sections of the left do advocate violence. The notion that freedom can only be achieved through an armed struggle (to overthow bourgeios society) is an entirely left-wing concept. The French, Russian, Iranian, Algerian, Nicaraguan revolutions are examples of left-wing violence.
True, and there are sections of the right that advocate diplomacy over the use force. This was another difficulty I wrestled with in answering your question, and why I found it necessary to couch so much as generalities. There are no absolutes... though there are some observable tendancies.
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3) I disagree with your point about the left being dreamy idealists with no evidence to support their policies. I identify with the left, but I certainly use facts and evidence to suport my views. I look at the widening wealth gap, the high rates of crime, the high rates of obesity, jails at bursting point, high rates of anti-social behaviour, governments being allowed to cause violence while claiming they are anti-violence. I take your point that you're generalising, but in truth, those I know on the left see these problems in society and draw conclusions from these problems. In my book, a world dictated by corporations lacks meaning and reduces humans to transactions - and this is creating serious social problems.
Not necessarily "dreamy" idealists, though some are. But they are, from my observation (especially here in the US) more idealistic than the right. Perhaps I wasn't clear also, that my observation has been that, and again especially in the US, the Left's policy and decision is more driven by empathy than by evidence. Also, I find that the Left looks more readily towards the new, while the Right more often tries to conserve the old. Neither is an entirely bad, or good, thing... the trick is balancing them. In any society there is a need to conserve portions of what has been, while at the same time making room for what might be. In the US, this has become so polarized that on the one hand there is an almost distrust of anything new, while on the other they seem all too ready to throw the baby out with the bath water... that is to say, things are so polarized they are far out of balance. Too little compromise and common ground. Which is a nice segue into your next point.
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4) The genuine left and the right do have some common ground. For instance, both champion family values, although they will disagree on what causes the breakdown in family values. I think you hit the nail on the head with your summation that the right see humans as competitors and adversaries, whereas the left see humans as companions.
I think in portions of Europe the left and right are finding more common ground, its likely no accident that both the major parties in Germany are both centrist. However, in the US, that common ground has become increasingly harder to find, and this concerns me.
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5) I've always thought labelling the left as "idealist" to be propaganda i.e. it can never happen so don't waste your time type of sentiment. I do not know anyone on the left who believes we're all going to live in peace and harmony. The left do believe it can be better than it is today. Better than a country with a widening wealth gap, better than a country with inequality of opportunity. I suppose the left still believe in genuine democracy.
Its unfortunate that idealism has almost become a pejorative in political (if not also common) language. It is the very essence of idealism to believe that we can make tomorrow better than today, that we can imagine new possibilities, better ways of doing things. This is part of what makes us human, our ability to dream, and there is a strength to be found in that. The danger, and this is where some on the left go astray, is getting lost in those dreams... in forgetting that while there is a wonder in dreaming of the stars... it is in the actual reaching for them, the doing, the making, the building, the creation, that we prove ourselves. I always liked that admonishment by Kipling, "If you can dream, and not make dreams your master, if you can think, but not make thoughts your aim..." There's such wisdom in that, and again a reminder of balance. I think in the US, the right could do with a few more dreamers, and the left with a few more engineers... and all of it, more in balance.
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6) I'm surprised at your comment about the US left wanting to open up the borders to everyone. It is not the case here. The left vehemently oppose immigration for the sake of cheap labour on the grounds that those at the bottom end of society are impacted by deflationary wages and undercutting, while those at the top end increase their bank balance. Mass immigration for the sake of cheap labour can only lead to a widening wealth gap and is completely at odds with the left-wing concept of democracy.
I think in this England is merely a few decades ahead of the US. In 20 or 30 years when China truly begins to emerge as an industrial power, or when it becomes clear how much Mexican labor is exploited, or Mexico is lamenting the loss of its sons and daughters as India already is, there will be new battle cries and debates, the left and right in the US will have new things to argue about, and likely so to will those in England or Germany or anywhere... and the only thing consistent is change itself. But like a favorite song of mine reminds... changes aren't permanent, but change is.
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I reckon there's a case to be argued that many have lost sight of what the left and the right actually stand for, which is not surprising in a world where people would rather go shopping than engage in politics. Still, I think there is a left and a right, and the fact that political parties now spend their time pandering to interest groups doesn't change this. There are plenty of people at grass roots level here who still believe in the values of the left and the right.
Was what the left or right stood for ever all that permanent? Is anything we humans create? Is there any noble intention that has not at some later point been corrupted by its inheritors? But I agree with you on this, there are many people, outside of politics, who just want a better life. The only question is how to achieve it... and the greatest differences are the methods chosen.
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Your island in the South Pacific sounds good to me, not sure how you cope with the heat though. Arriving in Tokyo for the first time and stepping a foot out of Ueno train station at midday - fuck that, I'm not going out there. Mind you, the beaches will be special.
Skinny as I am, the heat has never bothered me. The question for me is whether I still have time enough to seize the day and catch my own dreams. Perhaps I started too late and thus some goals will remain too distant to be reached (or can I race the wind one last time?), something that remains to be seen. Perhaps instead I shall whisper in my childrens ears as they sleep, when I have them (have I waited too long even for that?), "You young lions and lionnesses... seize the day, the stars are yours if you can catch them." Perhaps it will be they, not I, who walk the shores of that Happy Isle. That too would be a fine legacy for old Manavendra.
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Padriag
A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer
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RE: The left and the right...... - 
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