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RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/24/2007 4:28:10 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear curiouslyseeking, Ladies and Gentlemen;

In my mind's eyes I see, when a slave of mine 'begs' for anything, it must be rather severe and so much so the threat of removal of the collar and their service to me is at dire risk.

Using your narrow list of options, is not something I would allow a slave to hobble me, as a Dominant with. I must exact the adjudication as I see fit and I would take the least measure. The whole premise for 'punishment' is to correct a behavior/attitude as not to repeat it.

Assuming that using "Beg" is rooted in the English/British word; it is more of a formal plea for forgiveness and or adjudication. I just see a more calm approach if this was said by someone from Britian and or associated countries. Assuming that the use of "Beg" from an American, I can see in my mind's eyes the many forms in which the word "Beg" was anything from a insincere ploy to sincere pleas. Again, knowing the slave has great affect on my responses.

Those who are disobedient must take responsibility for their actions and know there are consequences for such actions. But, at times the slave's disobedience may save someone's life and or property. I must be able to weigh that in. Not be forced to punish a slave to which was disobedient by 'rule' but, not by 'intent.'

Those slaves I prefer, avoid punishment. In addition, I much rather speak to my slaves. I've given the "look" and have slaves tremble and turn inside out, just knowing I was disappointed. None really want to see me annoyed and or angered. I've found that a lot of my slaves already beat themselves up pretty severely before they even admitted their misdeeds.

I do believe, that all can apply but, it depends on the degree of the misdeed and punishments. I also dislike some games submissives/bottoms play in purposefully misbehave as to feel the whip. With me, if a slave needs to reaffirm their slave spirit, all they need to do is use a ritual and know they need a catharsis flogging or whatever they offer to me. I dislike being baited, manipulated and controlled by misconduct as to be the 'round the bush' way of just getting a good hard beating. So, such folks end up dismissed and let someone who finds chronic misconduct 'cute.'

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to curiouslyseeking)

Post #: 41

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/24/2007 10:37:18 PM

patina

Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline

i do not have a master at this moment but i know that when i do, and if i did something wrong i would tell Him. I would let Him know immediately as to what and why i did the wrong behavior. He could then decide what course of action to take. The Dom i am talking w/now has told me He believes that it is in part His fault i did not do the job correctly, as He did not make his wishes clear. So the first time He will excuse the wrong behavior but if it was to happpen again He would consider it flat out disobedience and He would limit my pleasure activity for a few days as punishment. He too would have a heart to heart talk to find the cause of the problem.

I hope this helps you.

patina

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to gerssub)

Post #: 42

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/24/2007 10:53:52 PM

pagansub77

Posts: 137
Joined: 3/5/2005
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I agree with the view that begging for punishment makes it about 'me' not the behavior. I feel a sincere apology is the best course. It is up to the Dom or Master what they do with the information.

I'd also say that punishing a girl who loves spanking by spanking her is no punishment and may very well encourage 'bratty' behavior. Hearing the words "I am disappointed" hurts much more, for me at least.

_____________________________

ps77

In the end everything will be okay.
If everything is not okay, then it's not the end.
Madness takes its toll...exact change only

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 43

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/26/2007 7:35:01 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiouslyseeking

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

They should apologize.

DV

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I apologize <snip>

Knight's kyra

Interesting that you both just use the term to apologize..... curious....Would a sincere beg not demonstrate more remorse?

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why begging needs to be a part of it. I enjoy it when someone begs to be allowed to orgasm but I don't see any reason they should beg to be forgiven. As long as there is sincere remorse for what has been done wrong and a promise to try harder in the future...I don't expect perfection, I'm pretty forgiving.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to curiouslyseeking)

Post #: 44

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/26/2007 7:45:07 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I wouldn't accept punishment for a problem that he couldn't solve and decided to blame me for...

Very interesting! I haven't heard anyone say this before but I am curious. Does the s-type have a choice to "accept" punishment or not? If you feel that you are often being punished injustly (and you are not a complete emotional masochist) do you eventually stand up and refuse to take it? Not you in particular, of course, Celeste. Just asking in hypothetical terms here.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 45

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/26/2007 7:49:09 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
Very interesting! I haven't heard anyone say this before but I am curious. Does the s-type have a choice to "accept" punishment or not? If you feel that you are often being punished injustly (and you are not a complete emotional masochist) do you eventually stand up and refuse to take it? Not you in particular, of course, Celeste. Just asking in hypothetical terms here.

Not accepting a punishment is not an option in my relationship, nor would I want it to be. It has occurred unfairly in the past, though not frequently. Some things in life aren't fair. It comes with the territory. Neither of us expects perfection in the other.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 46

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/26/2007 9:40:58 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
Very interesting! I haven't heard anyone say this before but I am curious. Does the s-type have a choice to "accept" punishment or not? If you feel that you are often being punished injustly (and you are not a complete emotional masochist) do you eventually stand up and refuse to take it? Not you in particular, of course, Celeste. Just asking in hypothetical terms here.

Not accepting a punishment is not an option in my relationship, nor would I want it to be. It has occurred unfairly in the past, though not frequently. Some things in life aren't fair. It comes with the territory. Neither of us expects perfection in the other.

I agree with this in theory. I think once you commit to obedience and the handing over of control, you also commit to having to deal with an occasional mistake that your Master might make. I don't think there can be random over riding of the authority when the submissive party feels like something is unfair. I do however think a smart master will discuss and hopefully consider the submissive's thoughts, feelings, input, at times when it's appropriate.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 3/26/2007 9:41:48 PM >

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 47

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/26/2007 10:04:58 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I agree with this in theory. I think once you commit to obedience and the handing over of control, you also commit to having to deal with an occasional mistake that your Master might make. I don't think there can be random over riding of the authority when the submissive party feels like something is unfair. I do however think a smart master will discuss and hopefully consider the submissive's thoughts, feelings, input, at times when it's appropriate.

True and in my case we can always discuss, although there might not be much time for that as his hand is swinging. I can talk pretty fast, but not that fast, lol.

I will continue to say he has a 95% "right on target" rate which means there's a 5% error rate, plus or minus. I can live with that and so far no unfair punishment has ever killed me or even damaged me. If I think something was done unfairly, I am welcome to voice that. If I think something is going to occur unfairly, I am welcome to state why beforehand. Doesn't mean he'll agree, however.

Conversely, sometimes I think he would be justified to punish me and he doesn't. The decision always rests with him.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 48

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/26/2007 10:40:51 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

greetings

You have made a few post on the Gorean Board..so allow me to give you a Gorean response to your question. There is a position..called "Kneel to the Whip"...niff said.

Be Well

Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiouslyseeking

I believe we can agree that when slaves are displeasing or disobedient they should take responsibility for their actions and disclose said situation to their Dominant.

Next step; In your opinion, should the slave;

A)    Beg for mercy and forgiveness?

B)    Beg for punishment and cleansing?

C)    Other forms of retribution?

D)    All of the above?

Thank you,
curious

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to curiouslyseeking)

Post #: 49

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 12:24:51 AM

cariad

Posts: 943
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline

Greetings Master Nosathro:

"greetings

You have made a few post on the Gorean Board..so allow me to give you a Gorean response to your question. There is a position..called "Kneel to the Whip"...niff said.

Be Well

Nosathro "

while i tend to stick to the Gorean boards of late, i was looking at the boards tonight unable to sleep and saw Your post Master...

i know all too well that very position and know that when told to assume it i have displeased my Owner (i will clarify that i am not currently owned) and that is also punishment for me... knowing that i have disappointed Him that is.

Blessed Be
cariad

_____________________________

The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A good slave. SLRN: 742 958 000

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 50

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 4:22:08 AM

twistedkytten

Posts: 240
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline

A- to understand and acknowledge the transgression - would possibly prevent future fuck-ups of the same nature..
B- would be accepting that one indeed displeased, therefor a need to be purified before their Master ..to be made clean again.. I know I have needed that.. to help me to let go.. *everyone fails that is only natural, the secret is coming back from that failure*

(in reply to curiouslyseeking)

Post #: 51

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 6:05:38 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I wouldn't accept punishment for a problem that he couldn't solve and decided to blame me for...

Very interesting! I haven't heard anyone say this before but I am curious. Does the s-type have a choice to "accept" punishment or not? If you feel that you are often being punished injustly (and you are not a complete emotional masochist) do you eventually stand up and refuse to take it? Not you in particular, of course, Celeste. Just asking in hypothetical terms here.

This is where consent comes in, isn't it? If he got cut off in traffic and then announced I had broken some rule that had never before existed just to vent, sure I would refuse punishment. I'd insist we talk things over beforehand instead of me being so angry and resentful that the relationship would be negatively impacted. Just like I'd end the relationship before having a bi scene instead of submitting to something I know I couldn't stomanch and would end the relationship afterwards. Better to end before and not compromise myself and my values instead of after.

But this isn't a heavy punishment dynamic. We always talk things out first and we have discovered over nearly four years that in each and every time, what it comes down to is miscommunication. Once we solve what he meant to say versus what I thought he meant, then the problem is solved. Punishing me instead of solving the problem is hardly the way to improve and strengthen the relationship.

Plus as I said, with things I can't solve, I am supposed to lay them in his lap. That is part of our dynamic, I'm not supposed to struggle with things that I can't solve. If it turns out to be a problem that he can't solve either, then punishing me for not being smarter than him wouldn't be effective nor would it solve the problem. I would lose respect for him and withdraw emotionally and as our relationship is predicated on emotional transparency that is not the way to achieve his aims.

But I'm supposed to tell him when he's wrong and why. Other people are supposed to do what their doms say and shrug when it all blows up in the dom's face. Total obedience no matter what isn't our kink, emotional transparency is. And that's the difference.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 52

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 6:14:09 AM

jauntyone

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline

quote:

Does the s-type have a choice to "accept" punishment or not? If you feel that you are often being punished injustly (and you are not a complete emotional masochist) do you eventually stand up and refuse to take it? Not you in particular, of course, Celeste. Just asking in hypothetical terms here

Greetings

In my relationship, I have but two choices ALWAYS. Accept/obey; or refuse and accept the consequences of my own actions.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 53

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 10:53:30 AM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

Sorry there is never an excuse for unjust punishent.. there has been a thread on that befor on here and I said then the same thing. If things are handled correctly then there should never be a mistake of that nature.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to jauntyone)

Post #: 54

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 2:00:26 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Sorry there is never an excuse for unjust punishent.. there has been a thread on that befor on here and I said then the same thing. If things are handled correctly then there should never be a mistake of that nature.

Magik's slave

Think before you speak. No one can say with 100% certaintly that they will NEVER make a mistake in this area.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 55

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 5:19:43 PM

Totalmaster4you

Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

In general I prefer not to punish however if something happens repeatedly and positive reinforcement has not succeeded in changing the behavior then I will use negative reinforcement. Since I'm trying to foster more pleasure from spanking and whipping I try to be creative and have punishments that effect the change I want without detracting from the relationship or the play. For example if she apologized sincerely for doing something wrong that would be fine but if the same behavior is repeated at a later date and again and again each time followed by a sincere apology what does a Dominant do? Find a "punishment'' that changes the behavior like not permiting her to spend time with Master for a day or two, standing in a corner etc.

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to curiouslyseeking)

Post #: 56

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 5:31:11 PM

curiouslyseeking

Posts: 924
Joined: 1/11/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Totalmaster4you

In general I prefer not to punish however if something happens repeatedly and positive reinforcement has not succeeded in changing the behavior then I will use negative reinforcement. Since I'm trying to foster more pleasure from spanking and whipping I try to be creative and have punishments that effect the change I want without detracting from the relationship or the play. For example if she apologized sincerely for doing something wrong that would be fine but if the same behavior is repeated at a later date and again and again each time followed by a sincere apology what does a Dominant do? Find a "punishment'' that changes the behavior like not permiting her to spend time with Master for a day or two, standing in a corner etc.

Thank you, Totalmaster4you....I understand your points....

allow me to change the tone a bit...

After trying the carrot approach, and then, the stick approach..do you think you as the Master, you recognize the effectiveness of it, before the sub does?

Meaning, are you intuned to change behavior or modification more so that the sub being cognizant of it?

(This may be unclear...I'm grasping for straws, carrots and sticks without being detailed specific)

< Message edited by curiouslyseeking -- 3/27/2007 5:32:11 PM >

_____________________________

"The ultimate freedom is the freedom to choose to have no choice"

(in reply to Totalmaster4you)

Post #: 57

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/27/2007 8:03:29 PM

saphiradraca

Posts: 10
Joined: 1/21/2007
Status: offline

I apologize. I admit I was wrong. If my partner were to punish me, so be it. I think his disappointment would be worse than any other punishment anyone could devise. And I'm good at punishing myself.

What's the point of begging for forgiveness? I like to beg, but not for forgiveness. It's not up to me to decide whether someone else will forgive or not forgive me, it's up to that person.

(in reply to gerssub)

Post #: 58

RE: Disobedience Beg - 3/28/2007 12:08:17 PM

sweetstorm

Posts: 227
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerssub

My Disappointment at her behaviour is her worst punishment

My Dom has never threatened me with punishment nor do I ever anticipate that He would. I have disobeyed under other Doms as a challenge to them and I was aware that it was disrespectful. I felt an urge to keep challenging them as they felt the greatest punishment they could give me was physical. :P
Go ahead and try.

Under my current Dom, I have so much respect for Him that if I know He is disappointed or let down by something I have done or by me not meeting His expectations, my own mental anguish over offending Him is much greater than any punishment He or anyone else could ever deliver.

I apologize but it feels so inadequate to express my disappointment in myself.

_____________________________

You don't need a parachute to skydive.

You need a parachute to skydive twice.

(in reply to gerssub)

Post #: 59

RE: Disobedience Beg - 4/1/2007 7:18:45 PM

MSUgirl

Posts: 16
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline

to disobey and know it, the mojority of subs will be dissapointed in themselves enough that it can make up for small mishaps, but i really believe it depends upon what the disobedience was in the first place

(in reply to sweetstorm)

Post #: 60

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