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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 6:54:10 AM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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quote:


Thanks for saying that you don't need a gun to kill people. As for a correlation, the normal Englisman does not have a gun and can not aquire one. So to kill, he uses something other than a gun to commit murder. See a culture prefering not to use guns in the first place proves more to the fact that guns do not kill. Instead, it is people who kill by any means necessary by choice and preference.

Not meant as an insult, but your stating (per usual) stuff you have no actual facts or knowledge of.
 
I could get a gun without a license np... to make a statement like a *normal* englishman cannot get one is completely naive.  But in the UK it is more likely that knives are used or carried - it's more a tradition - particularly if you come from an inner city area.  I grew up around them, learned about them and was raised to respect them.  I have also live in rural areas - and it is common for most farmhouses to own a shotgun or pistol, you don't have to be a lord or lady - or even livestock.
 
But it's true that guns arent the killer - its just the fucking tool.  I am not against guns - but I am for education.  Personally I would like to see it taught in PSHE lessons, along with parental responsibilies and relationship councilling.
 

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:19:06 AM   
FukinTroll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

It may sound stupid but it's the truth. guns or bullets don't kill. it's the person who shots who is doing the killing. a gun is a tool. it does nothing unless somebody uses it.


Lets say you are driving along in you 92 GMC and it just blows up. Is that machine failure or you just an idiot driver?

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:22:37 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Human rights legislation either forbids the Death penalty or it doesn't.

If HR does forbid the Death Penalty, which it does , if HR protocols emanated from the EU, which they did,  and have now been  implemented into UK law Wots your point ?

I thought even you recognised that campaigning against that which the establishment wants is futile

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:27:30 AM   
MyMasterStephen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Do all the google searching you want, you'll never find a case where a gun killed a person.


True. But it seems a bit disingenuous to pretend that guns were not designed specifically to administer lethal force -- i.e., to kill people (or animals).



And that, surely, is the point...?

Yes, they are designed, functionally, specifically to kill people.  But then thay have to be USED, and it is their USE that we should be debating.

Of what USE is a gun?  To kill, obviously.  But also to deter.  If you want to hurt me, and you know I have a gun, then you are going to think twice.  Hence the gun has fulfilled its function perfectly, in PREVENTING anyone from being hurt.

Ordinary weapons are no different to nuclear ones in their use.  They are designed to kill, yes, but they are USED to deter.  The nuclear deterrence worked - not without some hairy moments admittedly - and so also conventional weapons will tend to work as a deterrent.

The only fly in this ointment is that of escalation.  If you want to hurt me, and you know I have a gun, then you are going to think twice.  The result of that thinking might be that you go away and get a longer-range gun.  The only answer I can see is that the state must retain the ultimate deterrent - an effective police force and judicial system to make the consequences of escalation such an unattractive prospect that people will not risk it.

Guns exist, and can never be eradicated.  The only answer is to make their employment so dangerous to the gunman that he will not take the chance.  This will not deter the whackos like Michael Ryan, but you cannot legislate for events like that.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:38:07 AM   
FukinTroll


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The death toll for deadly vipers here in Lokiwood is 36. All credited to my oldest Um.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:39:18 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

HR protocols emanated from the EU, which they did, 



Have another read of my post. You'll see the above contradicts it. One of us is correct, the other is incorrect. If you're interested in knowing the correct position, you'll find the information on the internet - it should take between 1 and 5 minutes.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:40:07 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

Guns exist, and can never be eradicated. The only answer is to make their employment so dangerous to the gunman that he will not take the chance. This will not deter the whackos like Michael Ryan, but you cannot legislate for events like that.



How to make the use of a firearm dangerous?

Well, the success of the Vermont Carry shows that the best way to increase the risks to someone who would draw a hangun, is to be able to shoot him dead yourself.

If there's a 50/50 chance YOU are going to shoot the guy dead, the coward won't start trouble. If there's a 50/50 chance each person in a bank is armed, the bank WILL NOT be robbed during the day.



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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:47:39 AM   
MissSCD


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Status: offline 		To the Op:

Without reading all of the responses, I will say that I believe we are entitledto own weapons; however, I believe the US should develop new laws governing accountability in who can own one. 
Right now a thug can go on the street and pick one up, or worse, get it from their parents.  
It all comes down to living right and knowing what is right and wrong.

Regards,

MissSCD

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:53:53 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LadyEllen, why are you an "ex" gunowner?


Guns were banned here Popeye. Everything had to be handed in.

I did keep my muzzle loading musket for a while, but by some strange coincidence the police took that away too, a day after I was prescribed anti-depressants a few years ago; patient confidentiality is clearly not an issue over here. The joke being, if one were suicidal, this weapon would have to be the worst choice available - it was so long, you couldnt reach the trigger if it were pointing at your head for instance! And as for a homicidal rampage....well, at 2 shots per minute and a misfire rate that rises exponentially after the first half dozen shots, it wouldnt exactly be very useful! A sword in the shopping mall would be infinitely better LOL!

All I have left now is a .177 air rifle. And be seen with that outside the house and I'd get 5 years for sure.

E

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 7:56:16 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

Guns exist, and can never be eradicated. The only answer is to make their employment so dangerous to the gunman that he will not take the chance. This will not deter the whackos like Michael Ryan, but you cannot legislate for events like that.



How to make the use of a firearm dangerous?

Well, the success of the Vermont Carry shows that the best way to increase the risks to someone who would draw a hangun, is to be able to shoot him dead yourself.

If there's a 50/50 chance YOU are going to shoot the guy dead, the coward won't start trouble. If there's a 50/50 chance each person in a bank is armed, the bank WILL NOT be robbed during the day.



A) There is an off-chance someone may shoot you, so

B) Carry a gun.

I agree with the first option from Stephen.

A to B is a very negative and suspicious view of humanity. It can only lead to entrenched hostility and division in society. Taken to its logical conclusion, the elected government (derived from society) will express the same levels of hositility and aggression towards other nations.


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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 8:15:36 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Of course guns are deadly weapons - as Homer Simpson said, indicating the barrel, "this is the end you point at what you want to die".

But that edition really showed I think, the difference between responsibility and irresponsibility with guns, and by extension with everything in life.

A ban on me owning a gun doesnt tell me that society is any better than ever it was, but it does tell me that I am untrustworthy, irresponsible and have to be cared for by a nanny state for my own good, as I clearly dont have the good sense to know right from wrong, good from bad. Same with many other things here.

Say for instance, I owned a gun and I wanted to murder someone. Would I use the gun? No. Much too loud, much too much attention attracted, and much too much possible police attention in particular. If the gun were legal, I'd be doing a life sentence before my feet touched the ground too. Almost any alternative means of homicide would be superior in terms of me getting away with it.

Say for instance, I owned a gun and I was crazy enough to fancy running amok - which is the situation which led to the ban over here in the first place. Firstly, being crazy (as the two guys clearly were who prompted the ban), I should never ever have been granted any weapon licence in the first place, but lets assume that because of police incompetence I have been issued with one (as happened in those two cases). Naturally, I'm going to go on my rampage and shoot loads of people - but this means that the procedure for issuing licences was wrong, not that gun ownership is wrong.

Say for instance, I owned a gun and wanted to kill myself. Again, my mental state should have been a contraindication to the issue of a licence in the first place, and certainly should have been an indicator for my weapon to be withdrawn by the police as soon as it came to the attention of my GP - as happened with regard to my musket. Assuming again though, these failings in procedure, then I could likely blow my head off quite successfully - but then, I could if my intent was that clear, have hung myself had the weapon been removed.

So, in the case of me possibly murdering someone, the gun is a poor choice. In the case of me being crazy, passively or aggressively, then I should not have a gun at all. What this tells me, is that there is no problem with legal gun ownership by sane and responsible citizens, but rather that it is the blundering incompetence of the police and government which requires the ban, because for all their bluster, it is they who are irresponsible and untrustworthy.

E

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 8:55:40 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:



A) There is an off-chance someone may shoot you, so

B) Carry a gun.


That sounds about right. That's what EVERY SINGLE POLICE OFFICER does. So it can't be a bad idea.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:02:55 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Why do they carry guns over there?

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:08:42 AM   
FukinTroll


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Status: offline 		Because the bad guys all have them.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:11:57 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
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Status: offline 		Yeah, but they're harmless aren't they?

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:12:01 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Status: offline 		Tipping my hat to the troll,,, bad guys have them so do we DIANE AND I both have permits and always have one strapped on here on the farm...bounty

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:13:59 AM   
FukinTroll


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Status: offline 		Yup! Same here. People see the high weeds, lots of cars, and know that at least one gun lives here.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:20:07 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:54:04 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Why do they carry guns over there?



In theory, we ALL carry guns.

The right of The People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:06:58 AM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Why do they carry guns over there?



In theory, we ALL carry guns.

The right of The People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.



Except here in NY

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Profile   Post #: 60
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