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Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 4:08:25 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

OK... so I say that slightly tongue in cheek.

I have watched with a smile upon my lips in the past few posts. Time and again, people insisting respect be shown, politeness must be given.... and from complete strangers.

Why do people who are into BDSM insist that respect MUST be given to them, but by complete strangers? I am a bottom, a submissive, a slave... but who do I answer to? My husband of course. Why must I place my 'respects' to someone I do not know?

I agree, politeness is pleasent. But that is all it is. Without meaning, it is empty.

Come to a forum, such as this... place down ones views... expect to be adored or berated in equal measure... but do you not think that insisting something from someone who you do not know is, in essence... unconsenual?

Awaiting eagerly any thoughtful and constructive comments...

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

Post #: 1

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 4:48:50 PM

onceburned

Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline

quote:

I agree, politeness is pleasent. But that is all it is. Without meaning, it is empty.

Indeed. Without respect, politeness is an empty shell, motions made out of habit rather than intent. Respect is owed to all of us - Dom/me, sub/slave, vanilla. All humans deserve respect.
Being human means we have a spark of the divine in us. And that deserves respect.

Of course, it is possible for individuals to deserve disrespect too - usually because of their actions or inactions. Someone who lies in order to gain advantage is inviting disrespect.
And perhaps individuals who claim to deserve privileged treatment because of a self-appointed status also are inviting disrespect.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 2

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 5:04:56 PM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
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In truth Politeness and Respect is being instested in every group. After all it's pushed as being a well mannered adult and helps out with recuitment. If you enter a church, what grettings do you get? If you enter a political party what greetings do you get? If you start up a BDSM group in your area and want ppl to keep comming well how would you great them. Politeness encourages others to keep comming back. I recently took my pet to the Houston TX HPEP Ball. It was her first time to ever attend any BDSM function with other ppl. If others wern't polite and had on a nice face she might not would have enjoyed it as much. Politeness is the basis of presentation to let others no that you have tolerance and can be with other ppl when it comes to a common issue or idea.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 3

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 5:10:10 PM

MistressTrin

Posts: 36
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline

My mother used to say:

Nobody owes you anything but respect - and you have to earn that.

quote:

I agree, politeness is pleasent. But that is all it is. Without meaning, it is empty.

This made me think very hard because it struck me as odd at first (which is good, it made me think

). Then I realized I agree. A two year old can be taught to say thank you- which is polite- but they are just words to the child.

quote:

but do you not think that insisting something from someone who you do not know is, in essence... unconsenual?

Yes. If someone comes to me on the street and insists on taking my wallet, I will probably not be saying...oh thank heaven you got here!

~Peace~

_____________________________

We cannot change the direction of the wind, but we can alter the direction of our sails

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 4

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 5:26:16 PM

harmony3709

Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline

My personal view is that is has nothing to do with BDSM or the lifestyle or being in a forum or anything else. I treat people anywhere and hopefully the vast majority of the time with courtesy and the respect that is due someone else simply because they are my fellow human being. This is not the same type of respect that I would give someone else, say my parents, or someone I admire, but nonetheless it is a form of respect.

Why would I do otherwise? Why would anyone?

I was raised this way and I live this way. I expect, but don't assume that I will be treated the same, but quite frankly, I find that you have a much better chance of being treated with courtesy if you treat others that way. I can actually insist on not being treated badly on a forum such as this simply by refusing to continue with a conversation, or leave the thread, or even leave the site. The same in a r/t situation. If this then "forces" the other person to stop, simply by my not continuing in the dialogue, then I have simply practiced my right to no longer consent to the behavior. I suppose they could continue in a one-sided rant, but that would be a reflection on their own character.

Nowhere is it written that being honest means expressing your every thought and emotion, no matter the cost to another human being. Nowhere is it written that if you don't express those insensitive remarks that you are NOT being honest.

And since when did politeness have any meaning attached to it other than a simple act of behavior? The only meaning attached to it is the reflection it has on you and your manners.

So why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? My answer is why is it not? It should be a big deal everywhere.

harmony

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 5

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 5:36:45 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

Robert Heinlein, who interjected a lot of sexually-liberated social commentary in his novels, wrote in one of his Lazarus Long stories, "Good manners are the grease in the machinery of civilization." I agreed then and I agree now. I may not owe you or anyone else politeness, respect or even recognition of your basic value as a human being. If, however, substantial numbers of the population decline to abide by the "rules of polite society" we will all eventually suffer the fallout.
Civilization is seperated from anarchy and bararism by the thinnest patina of polite behavior. Some of us appear to recognize that and endeavor to hold the line. Ohers either don't see the repercussions of abandoning civility or simply don't care.
Ultimately,each of us will make that choice but we'll all eventually live with the consequences, be they good or bad.
Timothy

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 6

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 5:54:17 PM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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It still amazes me that so many don't grasp the basic utility of common courtesy, have we really gotten so comfortable we've forgotten why its there? I used to hear the saying "Etiquette is the grease that keeps the axle of society turning without too much squeeking." Its very true. Think on this, anytime you have a group of people come together you have, however temporary or permanent, a community. Being individuals they will necessarily have different opinions, goals, beliefs, etc. But to function as a community they must act to some degree with one accord, one goal, one opinion. This is the basis of team work... individuals working together for a common goal. But have you ever given thought to how such groups could function if they could not communicate with each other? It would be impossible. Etiquette, common courtesy, that basic respect we show others called politeness facilitates such communication, it makes communication possible.

Consider this, if I showed no consideration for your beliefs, your views, your opinions, your thoughts, for you... would you be willing to listen to me as I spoke only of what interested me, of my thougths, of my view, my opinions and my goals? I do not think you would. You would find me so over-bearing, so arrogant, so intolerable you would have no time for me. And so we would not communicate and instead would each go our own way thinking what a selfish boor the other was. We would not communicate, thus we could not cooperate, thus we could not form a community, thus we could not find nor work towards a common goal. We could not help each other, we could not understand one another, and how would this benefit any of us?

Consider this, if I show you consideration for your beliefs, for your views, your opinions, your thoughts... for you. If when you speak I listen to what you say and where we disagree I choose to moderate my tongue. Where our opinions and beliefs differ I choose to restrain myself and let it pass if it is not especially important. If I do this, are you not then more inclined to do so for me when you have disagreed with me, where your beliefs and opinions differ? If I have shown you courtesy enough to listen to you when you spoke of what interests you, are you not then more inclined to hear what interests me? And if we can agree not to argue about our differences, does this not then make it more possible to discuss those things on which we might agree, and in so doing find common cause and common goals which we might work towards together? Thus forming a community, a team, a society, a tribe, a nation? Is this not the essence of what it is to be polite, to simply show such consideration for another person, to show restraint in our dealings with them, control of our tongues?

Why is etiquette so important in this lifestyle... perhaps because we began as outcasts and have had to struggle for respect, oftimes we still struggle for it from the larger society in which we exist. If they will not show us that consideration, is it so unreasonable to think that perhaps we could at least show it to one another? Etiquette requires self control, self discipline... this too is appealing to we who deal so often in discipline and control, especially of the self. Is it not appropriate to we, who make control, discipline and restraint our stock and trade, that we exemplify it in our manner of speach and our dealings with others? Is it not a statement of power, of personal power, that if you insult me I remain polite still and in so doing say through my actions, "I remain in control of myself, and though you try, you have no power over me, not even to disturb me... it is you who cannot control your tongue or your temper that has no power." How often have we said that we admire in a dominant self control, control of their anger. Does not then a dominant who is courteous demonstrate this very trait quietly? Is it any less appealing a trait in a submissive who through such courtesy shows the capacity for obedience, for submission? Not by submitting to the antagonist, but buy remaining obedient to the demands of etiquette even when it is not easy to do so.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MistressTrin)

Post #: 7

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 7:04:28 PM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

I think politeness and being considerate should be a given, at least until treated otherwise. I know we see the opposite on many occasions, but luckily I am not responsible for their actions. All I can do is be polite and courteous and hope it's catching..lol. I do see this often where someone is attacked (in a manner of speaking) and then they retaliate, I can't say I blame them if it was unprovoked. But even in a situation like that, I generally try to simply overlook it and speak my mind within the limits of what I am sure of...I said most of the time..lol.

.

Now respect however is a different bird. I used to agree respect should be earned, but then again I don't know that I practice that, so I have changed my tune the last few years. I generally respect anyone I meet, on or off-line, until they give me reason to do otherwise. I think that is only right. Perhaps it is in varying degrees, like a basic level of respect and then it goes up from there (or down I guess). As for how much that bears on some protocol issues, now I almost don't want to go there. I don't know that I would want anything more than a "Sir" from an owned or (unowned for that matter) sub/slave, and I am not even concerned about that. It's cool to hear and does show some respect I suppose, but I don't think it shows disrespect if they don't. I have seen way too many Dominants think they are somehow automatically to be called Master/Mistress or such, sorry I don't agree, this is likely something they can do if they wish but by no means should be demanded of them. Actually I would be offended if a sub/slave of mine called another Dom "Master" except if referring to their nic in a chatroom.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 8

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 7:33:50 PM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Some people consider dom/sub to be a heirarchy, the ones who capitalize doms names but not subs, the ones who use the I/i thing, etc. They feel doms are placed on a higher level than subs and thus are due a separate protocol.

Some people get into bdsm and it's all shiny and new for them and they feel it must somehow be "better" than vanilla, because THEY feel better in it, and so try to make a big deal out of how people act within it.

But generally, I just use the same manners I always had growing up.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 9

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 7:44:48 PM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Some people consider dom/sub to be a heirarchy, the ones who capitalize doms names but not subs, the ones who use the I/i thing, etc. They feel doms are placed on a higher level than subs and thus are due a separate protocol.

I have to disagree. When I am writing something that pertains to U/us as a group along with Us as the dominants I frequently use the "U/us" to differentiate between who I am specifically speaking about. I do not under any circumstances consider myself, or any dominant to be on a higher level then any submissive. For the most part if someone has their online nic capitalized I also capitalize no matter what their orientation is. I won't speak for why others do it, nor will I assume any expertise on the matter.....

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 10

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 8:04:00 PM

KarbonCopy

Posts: 779
Status: offline

I have too run into other tops that insist that I show them respect. I bow down and respect one person, my Mistress other than that, you upset me and no amount of being a top is going to save you.

I'm not submisive to the whole community, I'm still a person that doesnt take to being disprespected, neither from my Mistress or any other arrogant prick.
Of course, I trust my Mistress not to disrespect me, she can humiliate me and degrade me all she wants, but she will not disrespect me.

I dont understand this attitude that all of us subs should bow down to every top out there. It doesnt work that way, If Mistress says to treat a top with the same respect that I treat her with, then so be it, but without those instructions, your just another person.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 11

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 8:15:33 PM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

quote:

Time and again, people insisting respect be shown, politeness must be given.... and from complete strangers.

And isn't it always the dominants who are complaining that they aren't getting the respect they *think* they deserve? I suppose they believe that such complaints will just dom everyone into behaving the way they want.

My theory is that they can't separate their fantasy role playing from reality. For example, the "no reply to my e-mail" whiners may believe they are Prince Charming and all the fair maidens will naturally curtsey and send thoughtful replies to their notes. Others may be protocol junkies who simply can't conceive that others don't share their fetish for exaggerated decorum even though they don't expect the same behavior in everyday life.

Anyway, I usually think it is impolite for folks to be lecturing about politeness. If anything it is counterproductive because I think it takes a pompous ass to post such drivel and so it increases the likelihood of getting an impolite response out of me.

So, dark~angel, I think your observations are spot on as usual.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 12

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 8:17:17 PM

SweetDommes

Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

We expect some very simple rules to be followed no matter who we are talking to, and we follow them ourselves. Basically they boil down to the Golden Rule - but we do have limits. We will treat everyone, submissive or dominant, how we want them to treat us back - with at least the basic common courtesy that every human deserves. We may not always be nice, but we are not rude until they prove themselves unworthy of our courtesy.

We don't understand dominants/tops who insist that everyone bow and scrape in front of them. We don't want everyone to submit to us, mostly because we don't want to be submitted to by someone who will submit to just anyone (does that make sense?), we want someone who choses to submit to us and only us.

(in reply to KarbonCopy)

Post #: 13

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 9:28:37 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
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I expect the basic level of respect from people right from the begining, nothing more nothing less, I give that same thing. Additional respect may be given over time, or based on achievements someone has and/or a proven history related to me from someone I know.

Like it or not there is a hierarchy of sorts, based on experience, proven history, and such just as there is a subtle hierarchy at work and in society in general. Just as in society in general there is a social rank of sorts, you can reject it if you choose but that doesn't make it go away it just means you will be excluded from the society based on your own choice not to participate.

I'm not saying you have to bow and scrape most people who have real societal rank are not going to require anything like that, simply an acknowledgement that you know they have been aroound longer than you, have done more for the community, or whatever they have done that has given them the respect of the community.

BTW I still make a point to recognize the rank of senior submissives, people like Vi Johnson, or Lady Cathrine, both of whom are slaves, before I greet Dominants who have been around shorter times, their actions over decades have proven them worthy of special respects such as that.

I've found in most cases those who make a point of touting their social rank really don't have much of it, those that do have it tend to recognize when you observe it and ignore it when you do not.

I have a favorite thing to tell new dominants "You cannot 'demand' respect, you can only 'command' respect. " The reverse is also true people cannot demand your respect theu can only command it.

In Leather

Archer

(in reply to SweetDommes)

Post #: 14

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/10/2005 11:01:14 PM

junecleaver

Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline

I agree with you completely. I am not what most would consider 'polite' until I truly feel it's deserved. Otherwise, what's the point?

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 15

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/11/2005 4:47:20 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

I agree with you completely. I am not what most would consider 'polite' until I truly feel it's deserved. Otherwise, what's the point?

Now is it just me... or does that sound wrong coming from someone named junecleaver. LOL Not attacking you hun, just thought that was kind of ironic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I expect the basic level of respect from people right from the begining, nothing more nothing less, I give that same thing. Additional respect may be given over time, or based on achievements someone has and/or a proven history related to me from someone I know.

I agree Archer, we trust by degrees, we respect by degrees, its not a binary thing, its not black and white

I can't help but think this is almost a cutlural issue. Some of us hold to older cultural values about etiquette and interpersonal relationships. Others dismiss that and have an attitude that to me seems quite self centered, perhaps coming from a culture today that is more self centered. That "its all about me" attitude.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to junecleaver)

Post #: 16

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/11/2005 4:58:37 AM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I can't help but think this is almost a cutlural issue. Some of us hold to older cultural values about etiquette and interpersonal relationships. Others dismiss that and have an attitude that to me seems quite self centered, perhaps coming from a culture today that is more self centered. That "its all about me" attitude.

And this is totally unfortunate. What I get tired of is the Doms who decide that the submissives are supposed to be respectful and mannered and because we are submissive, they can treat us like like trash right out of the gate simply because they are Dominant. Gets old after a while....

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 17

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/11/2005 5:18:54 AM

Oumae

Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

I agree with you completely. I am not what most would consider 'polite' until I truly feel it's deserved. Otherwise, what's the point?

Just curious about what the level "most would consider polite" is..... The point of the politeness I would give and expect from people on first meeting would be not just about common courtesy but about an ability to mix with others and to meet and make friends and to learn more about life. How do people do this if they are not polite to some degree?

Oumae

_____________________________

Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca leagann se a chos.
( The man with the boots does not mind where he places his foot)

(in reply to junecleaver)

Post #: 18

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/11/2005 5:30:02 AM

Wolfspet

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline

http://www.collarme.com/forum/m_185/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm
I authored this thread heare over a year ago.
Sums my feelings up nicely..

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 19

RE: Why is politeness and respect such a big deal in BDSM? - 4/11/2005 5:36:08 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

quote:

I can't help but think this is almost a cutlural issue. Some of us hold to older cultural values about etiquette and interpersonal relationships. Others dismiss that and have an attitude that to me seems quite self centered, perhaps coming from a culture today that is more self centered. That "its all about me" attitude.

And this is totally unfortunate. What I get tired of is the Doms who decide that the submissives are supposed to be respectful and mannered and because we are submissive, they can treat us like like trash right out of the gate simply because they are Dominant. Gets old after a while....

Lily

The only thing in this I see as being unfortunate is that so many don't see the point of just being polite to one another. The second half of your statement is not a fair characterization of anything I have ever said (and I take it somewhat personally since you chose to quote me). I have never at any point condoned anyone treating a submissive like trash just because they are submissive. Quite the contrary, I have said everyone should be polite and show common courtesy. I have also said that one way a dominant shows their self control is in the restraint they show in their behavior towards others. For a "dominant" to treat you like trash for no reason would give me cause to question whether they were actually a dominant at all or just another angry person wearing the mask. We all prove ourselves by our actions, our behavior, or manorism. Not everyone who claims to be dominant is, not everyone who claims to be submissive is. If someone who claims to be a dominant can't show some self control, I doubt their claims. If someone claims to be submissive but seems incapable of common courtesy, I doubt them.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 20

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