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RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 5:17:04 AM   
IrishMist


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Never used either one. Walked the edge to closely for it to ever be safe, or sane; and there was nothing consensual about it at all /grins wickedly

as for knowing about the risk...yes, but as stated, there was nothing consensual about it at all

I am done digging into the deep dark past

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 9:13:00 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

what i want to know, is who is laughing in the face of SSC?

I didn't know it had a face... but okay... HA... HA... and double HA! 

Seriously, I don't pay it or RACK much attention.  I do what seems sensible to me, avoid what my conscience suggests I should and the only regrets I have come from the times I either ignored my own good sense or my conscience.  But then I don't play with strangers, or go to fetish clubs or play parties, so I suspect I have far less need for such things.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mixielicous)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 9:17:24 AM   
starlyte


Posts: 1
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Hello mixielicous
 
I don't go to play clubs, and I don't play with strangers so both ssc and rack have never had a place in my vocabularly. Personally, I find that if you take time a little time to know the people you play with anyway, you should not need to rely on these kinds of things
 


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Charlotte

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 9:23:45 AM   
thetammyjo


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Personally I consider the most important part of SSC to be the "C" consensual.  Without that I would feel that I was committing abuse or rape and that would offend me on many many levels.

As for "Safe" well I think of it this way.  If I want good service or to have a toy/slave around to use for a long time, I would be foolish to do things that would damage him and thus damage me.  I'm not talking jail time here I'm talking about the resulting lessening of service and fun to ME.

"Sane" for me is more about motivation.  I want me as a person valued and I don't feel valued if I think someone is doing something because of mental or emotional reasons that really have nothing to do with me.  Again, it is about ME here even if the results are concern for the slave or kindness or whatever.

Someone came up with RACK some time ago and I think that really is saying "consensual" and "safe" in a different way along with some "sane" tossed in -- if you have emotional or mental issues preventing you from being "risk aware" then that seems to qualify as "not sane" to me.

I think the drive behind both of them is the same.  Concern for education and protecting what is done in the eyes of the world.  I don't think anyone who came up with SSC or RACK thought it should be the begin all and end all of discussions or debates.  If they did, they need to put on some glasses and look around them.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 12:08:05 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
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From: This month? Maryland
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If you are a Dom:

Would you play with someone who was unable to make a choice regarding his/her own actions? For example, if a person were a minor, mentally handicapped, or severely drunk, high, or drugged up, or if they only "consented" under coersion? Or would you play with someone while on drugs?

Do you believe in things that are not true in the "real world" for example that your ownership of someone includes your right to take his/her life, injure, or disfigure them - or more accurately - the right to do this without being subject to some outside standards of society if you were caught?

Do you pick up a toy or weapon and start haphazardly using it on someone without attempting to learn what you're doing first? Do you use any implement including your hands in any way you see fit without regard for what part of the body you are using it on, how hard you are using it, or what potential harm might be inflicted?

If you are a sub:

Would you participate in bdsm activities while drunk or high or allow someone who is drunk or high to participate with you?

Do you believe that your dom/master/owner has the right to kill you and stand by if he/she ever tried to do so? (Same goes for permanent disfigurement?)

Do you care whether the person who plays with you has ever used a given implement before? Do you ask when meeting someone for the first time if they have had any education on how to properly to x, y, and z? Would you stop a scene if you realized someone had no idea what they were doing?

Think about your answers to these questions. The "obvious" ones are what the spirit of SSC or RACK are supposed to be. It's not about spouting out words, it's about the intention. I hate it that people demonize a saying or phrase just because it has become perverted over the years. OK, so you might not be out chanting SSC in the streets, but who is? If your answers to the questions I've asked (and they are by no means the only questions that need to BE asked) are landing you on the side of an ignorant, dillusional, sociopath, then you probably aren't on here trying to educate and better yourself anyway.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 12:31:08 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
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Greetings
 
Ok, in all and complete honesty
 
quote:

  Would you participate in bdsm activities while drunk or high or allow someone who is drunk or high to participate with you?


I do not drink nor do drugs, so for myself, this question is useless. Master drinks, but, I do not allow him anything. HE TAKES WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY HIS, he does not need me to 'ALLOW' him anything.
quote:

  Do you believe that your dom/master/owner has the right to kill you and stand by if he/she ever tried to do so? (Same goes for permanent disfigurement?)

Do I believe he has the right to? Yes. I have given him that right. It is not mine to take back.
quote:

  Do you care whether the person who plays with you has ever used a given implement before? Do you ask when meeting someone for the first time if they have had any education on how to properly to x, y, and z? Would you stop a scene if you realized someone had no idea what they were doing?


Since Master and I are not involved with others, I do not feel that this question would apply to us. However, in regards to any toys he may use on me. It is not my place to question whether or not he has ever used them before or not.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 2:36:50 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
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From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
If you are a sub:

Would you participate in bdsm activities while drunk or high or allow someone who is drunk or high to participate with you?
 
yes to the first part, for the second part i'll have to piggyback jauntyone's answer...i'm a slave, i don't "allow" or not allow my Master or anyone else to do anything. so if someone were under the influence of drugs of some fashion and wished to engage in bdsm activities with me, well then that is what would happen. it's really none of my business.


Do you believe that your dom/master/owner has the right to kill you and stand by if he/she ever tried to do so? (Same goes for permanent disfigurement?)

yes he has that right, and i accepted that fact before i made the decision to become property.

Do you care whether the person who plays with you has ever used a given implement before? Do you ask when meeting someone for the first time if they have had any education on how to properly to x, y, and z? Would you stop a scene if you realized someone had no idea what they were doing?

do i care? no, not really, since it has no relevance to anything.. do i ask questions? no, of course not. it wouldn't be place to do so. as for stopping a "scene", that's hard to answer since we don't engage in scening, however it's not my place to stop the actions of any other person who is making use of me, whatever the reason. that would be my Master's job.

so i suppose we would be perfect examples of folks who don't live, believe in, or preach SSC. :)


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 2:56:29 PM   
blushingflower


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To me, safe means "aware of the risks, taking appropriate steps to minimize the minimizable risks."  So that means not aiming for internal organs when beating, using condoms when playing with others, things like that.  And not doing things that are extraordinarily dangerous.
Sane means a lot of the same things that "safe" does, to me, in the sense that they're connected- the sane way to fulfill a rape fantasy is to arrange it with someone you know, this is the safe way too.  The crazy, unsafe way is to wear a short skirt and tiny top and then go to a biker bar and insult guys hoping that they'll rape you.  It also means that you communicate with your partner.
Consenual means that you've consented, either implictly or explicitly to things.  I think even "no-limits" slaves are consensual- they give their owners consent to use them however they see fit. 
Yeah, I've done things that weren't safe, and probably don't always do them in the safest ways.  And there are people who would consider us all to be crazy for our kinks.  I really have always thought that the whole point of SSC was to distinguish BDSM from abuse.

(in reply to mixielicous)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 4:39:06 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
If you are a Dom:

Would you play with someone who was unable to make a choice regarding his/her own actions? For example, if a person were a minor, mentally handicapped, or severely drunk, high, or drugged up, or if they only "consented" under coersion? Or would you play with someone while on drugs?

I would not play with someone I felt unable to be aware of their actions or control them to a reasonable extent.

I am fine with someone being a minor, mentally handicapped in some forms, drunk, high or drugged up- it's not an all or nothing choice for me.

Coerced no.
quote:


Do you believe in things that are not true in the "real world" for example that your ownership of someone includes your right to take his/her life, injure, or disfigure them - or more accurately - the right to do this without being subject to some outside standards of society if you were caught?

It would be stupid to suggest you would not be prosecuted by the system in which you live- but just because there is a law against it doesn't mean it's wrong.  Law does not dictate ethics or morality and anyone who thinks so narrowly is wrong.

quote:

Do you pick up a toy or weapon and start haphazardly using it on someone without attempting to learn what you're doing first?

Well no one's ever given me a lesson on using crops, but I do it all the time.  Take that what you will.

quote:

Do you use any implement including your hands in any way you see fit without regard for what part of the body you are using it on, how hard you are using it, or what potential harm might be inflicted?

Sometimes, though almost always due to personal curiousity, nothing more.
quote:


Would you participate in bdsm activities while drunk or high or allow someone who is drunk or high to participate with you?

Do you believe that your dom/master/owner has the right to kill you and stand by if he/she ever tried to do so? (Same goes for permanent disfigurement?)

Do you care whether the person who plays with you has ever used a given implement before? Do you ask when meeting someone for the first time if they have had any education on how to properly to x, y, and z? Would you stop a scene if you realized someone had no idea what they were doing?

Think about your answers to these questions. The "obvious" ones are what the spirit of SSC or RACK are supposed to be. It's not about spouting out words, it's about the intention. I hate it that people demonize a saying or phrase just because it has become perverted over the years. OK, so you might not be out chanting SSC in the streets, but who is? If your answers to the questions I've asked (and they are by no means the only questions that need to BE asked) are landing you on the side of an ignorant, dillusional, sociopath, then you probably aren't on here trying to educate and better yourself anyway.

Which answers are which? 

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(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 4:56:37 PM   
Archer


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Wow I still marvel at this debate and the stuff people will use to bash SSC without actually going to the source documents and the documented history of how it came about.

It started as a banner during a gay rights march on Washington DC. (david stein's writtings will tell you this)
Then later that year or the next at the Leather Leadership Conference (great event to learn about how to have a successfull group and be active in the community RT) It had kinda taken on a life of it's own and they fleshed it out a little bit. Having been used at various pride parades etc during the meantime taken from the March back to their home communities by some who were at the march on Washington.

Safe was never ment to mean without risk, History divides on two possible explinations
         1. The false rumors that HIV was being spread by gay male SM enthusiest not through other sexual activities
         2. The fact that SM enthusiest make a concerted effort to examine and mitigate the risks they take
Sane was ment to battle the fact that the Psycological Field had us listed as mentally ill.
Consensual was ment to tell folks that it was consenting adults and that nobody was being held against their will thus seperating us from the TV images of the SM serial killers etc.

But as with any abreviation the explination one gets depends on the intelligence and knowledge of the peson who is teaching it to you.

Safe in any field is relative, and the image that SM was more responsible for HIV spread was busted.
Sane Now that the APA diagnostic manual has shifted SM from mental disorder to para philia it's easy to poke fun at the Sane aspect but remember that it had in some cases been used to commit people to facilities for inpatient care.
Consensual look how mainstreamed we are now compared to where they were then, we're on TV in some cases without being a criminal madman.

How wonderfull to poke holes in the work of folks who paved the way this far.



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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 5:10:03 PM   
darkinshadows


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I don't see anyone 'knocking' the phrase or poking holes, but it's misuse.
So many people throw it around like its a mantra, it has lost it's original meaning.
 
As Stein states -
 
quote:

The organized gay-rights movement has been accused many a time of marginalizing those who don’t fit a "respectable" or "straight-acting" image, and in some cases that’s a fair objection. But when it came to choosing a slogan for the S/M-Leather-Fetish Contingent in the 1987 march, that wasn’t our intention.

Note that this first use of "safe, sane, and consensual" occurred in a context that also included concepts like community, responsibility, tradition, education, and gay liberation. Moreover, the rubric "safe, sane, and consensual" itself was explicitly presented as embracing all degrees of commitment, from "a total lifestyle" to "an occasional adventure," as well as S/M practitioners ranging from novices to veterans.

Therefore, rather than saying, "This is what S/M is, and it’s okay, nothing to be worried about," the GMSMA statement of purpose said, in effect, "This is the kind of S/M we stand for and support. S/M can be damaging, crazy, or coercive, but it doesn’t have to be, and together we’re going to learn how to tell the difference." If someone was deliberately careless or irresponsible, or broke agreements about limits, we didn’t say, "He’s not doing S/M" but rather, "He’s not doing the kind of S/M we can support."

Do you see people in 'general' terms using SSC in those contexts?  No - it is often misused, misplaced and that is what often causes people to seemingly reject it - when in fact the rejection is the motives behind using it.
 
Peace and Rapture 
 

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 5:19:35 PM   
ScreamerGirl


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david stein, writing about the origins of SSC - good read.

http://www.leatherleadership.org/library/safesanestein.htm


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Verbosities

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RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 5:30:06 PM   
Archer


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I agree we end up hearing folks reject it because some folks use it as a club, but is that a good enough reason to allow them to reject it out of hand without at least trying (as you have done here) to educate them and maybe get the facts straight.
5 post in this thread where I read it as poking holes in it because they found out it had been misused but stopped there instead of getting the rest of the story. several (edited actually all of them) of them after you provided the name and a piece of the history.

And in the circles I tend to circlate in I do hear SSC spoken of in realistic terms closer to the original intent, and the issue of it being used wrongly as a club spoken of openly.

< Message edited by Archer -- 3/28/2007 5:37:54 PM >

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RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 5:38:47 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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I think much boils down to rejection of authority, and in a 'world' or 'lifestyle' of power exchange, SSC can be a huge issue.
Reality is - people do not like being told what to do - and if they are told what to do and follow it, they like to 'show' they are doing it consensually ie - of their own free will.  So by rejecting a specific mantra, even though they may not understand it's origins or even bother to educate themselves, they are proving just how 'consensual' they are.  As people keep saying over and over - and they are right to a certain extent - safe and sane are subjective - whereas consensual is pretty much what it says on the can.
 
The majority like to be unique - in a cliquey sense...


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.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 6:42:24 PM   
BoiJen


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I prefer the ideal of Risk Aware Consentual Kink...RACK...safe and sane are subjective words and consentuality..welll...we can all agree upon that now can't we?

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 6:49:53 PM   
Darias


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From: midlands ireland
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Safety believe it or not can be a very relative term . one dominant and submissive couple may consider things such as knifeplay breathplay and bloodplay unsafe . where as a couple experienced in this areas and taking the proper precatutions can and will think it no more unsafe than rope bondage

Sanity ... well compared to My family I am sure I am considered by many not only the black sheep but the insane one . however amongst others who share my interests and this lifestyle i would hope to atleast be considered relaitivly sane

consensual i am glad to say in my opinion can still be used as a guideline because there cannot honestly be any ambiguity . you either say yes or no . agree or do not agree

my .02 of a euro


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 9:46:49 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
If you are a sub:

Would you participate in bdsm activities while drunk or high or allow someone who is drunk or high to participate with you? i would with Him, and i would with someone else if He wished it. i would not do so of my own accord, if i were choosing when, where, and with whom the play happened.

Do you believe that your dom/master/owner has the right to kill you and stand by if he/she ever tried to do so? (Same goes for permanent disfigurement?) yes, i gave that right over when i took His collar. i would not stand by if i thought He was not Himself - if He was having a reaction to meds or something like that. but as long as i am sure He is of, well, normal (sound is a bit sketchy here) mind (for Him), what He chooses to do with me is His choice.

Do you care whether the person who plays with you has ever used a given implement before? Do you ask when meeting someone for the first time if they have had any education on how to properly to x, y, and z? Would you stop a scene if you realized someone had no idea what they were doing?  see answer to first question. in a nutshell: when i am given the rein to arrange scening with play partners of my own choice, etc. i will always choose to play with people who know what  they are doing. if He is dictating the situation, or has "loaned" me out, i would concern myself with being pleasing and let them worry about which end to hold the flogger.


i don't like the terms "ssc" and "rack," because i don't consider us to always be operating within safe, sane boundaries, and, well, i worry about consensuality outside of my relationship (if i were to be kidnapped and raped or something on my way home from class late at night, for example) but i consented to the collar and His choices for me, and beyond that, consent isn't an issue, to me. as far as risk aware, i suppose that makes sense - whenever i have the option of who to engage in sex or play with, i will always choose people who know what they're doing, etc. but then again, i don't always have that option. we're aware of the risks of breath play and other things we do, but those aren't things that are particularly safe.

i guess what i'm trying to get across is, acronyms do not matter to me so much.

annabelle.


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a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

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RE: SSC - 3/28/2007 10:43:36 PM   
grlneedstolearn


Posts: 728
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I just do what he says.  We've never spoken of accronyms.  He speaks, I obey, end of story.


Yep same here

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: SSC - 3/29/2007 11:20:33 AM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Which answers are which? 


Arg. All of you have proven that there are no good yes/no answers to the points I was trying to make in my questions. I didn't expect anyone to flat out say, "I don't care whether the person I'm playing with or who owns me is in control of themselves or cracked out. In fact I think it's fun to give him a sharp knife and tell him to cut me up a bit when he's high on crystal meth." or "Yeah, my master likes to do needle play with me but instead of buying them new we steal the used sharps containers from the clinic down the block." Saying something like that would seem ridiculous to me...reckless, unsafe, and insane. I'm sorry to insult anyone who might do those things and I'm hoping you don't.

The point I was attempting to make was that those are not normally acceptable types of actions. More specifically, those would not be acceptable to me. It has nothing to do with calling myself a practitioner of "SSC" because I really don't go by that label anyway. I just feel like people tend to want to make themselves sound more badass by bashing SSC and touting what they do as "unsafe and insane" when there is in fact quite a lot of safety and sanity involved.

I don't want to speak in absolutes cause there is probably someone out there who will tell me it's ok to play around with guns while not in complete control of oneself, but that is not something I consider rational behavior. Whereas, most of what I do and see other people doing, is quite rational considering we think it through, know the risks involved, minimize them, and everyone is willing to participate.

But this debate is getting futile. I will NEVER agree that an owner has the right to kill his/her slave just because the slave gives him/her that right. Sure there are extenuating circumstances, I believe in euthanasia, but the way some people make it sound is like their owner could just decide to off them because they didn't do the dishes right and that'd be cool.

I also will never agree that the slave doesn't have any say so in what is "allowed" to be done to him or her because if your owner does something that is so appalling to you that you can't bear living with it, then you will initiate the termination of the relationship. If you say that you will still be owned no matter what, then that's your choice as well even if it's merely the choice to remain no matter what.

Ultimately, I was attempting to ask things that I thought everyone could agree on...like that you wouldn't beat someone to a bloody pulp without at least knowing how to do it without damaging the vital organs. I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that people would get what I was saying without taking it to the ludicrous level of "no one ever taught me how to use a riding crop." But thanks for pointing out the subtleties that cannot be taken for granted. And in all honesty, I think people make a huge deal out of nothing in some cases when talking about learning to use implements...in my case, single tails. I learned how to use one rather quickly and within a few days of practicing on thin air moved on to my first human victim. Many people think (and have told me) that you have to practice on pillows for a year, I disagree. It comes down to being aware of what you're doing and being honest about your own skill level and comfort level with something. I think it's more dangerous to play with someone who doesn't know what they are doing but pretends to than someone who just admits they don't know what they're doing.

Now, back to work...
(edited cause I quoted double and it looked silly)

< Message edited by DominaSmartass -- 3/29/2007 11:23:36 AM >


_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: SSC - 3/29/2007 1:29:34 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
Well, the difference may be "can" from "should" or "would".

Can a master/mistress kill a slave? Sure, almost any of us could go out and kill someone if we wanted to or were pissed off enough. Same of harming someone.

But should we or would we? That's where I'd start thinking about someone's motivations, sanity, safety and issues of consent.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 40
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