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RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/6/2007 4:45:31 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Apart from the need to be generally sceptical of the stuff you read on the Internet, you should also know that a lot of this stuff isn't based on any scientifically or statistically valid methodology.

I mean, just have a look at the CSA scares a while back, with people "uncovering repressed memories" of satanic orgies, sacrifice, etc... Could it happen? Sure. Is it that prevalent? No way, it'd be borderline socially acceptable if it were.

According to some of these sources, being a femdom means that you're an obsessive narcissist with delusions that your clitoris is a penis, while being a maledom means you resent your mother and project this as a hate of all women. I'm not kidding. I read a published article on this from this century, and ISTR it was peer-reviewed, too, albeit in one of these journals where they'd probably be preaching to the choir anyway.

Also, bear in mind that most such "studies", and I use the term loosely, will be based on a handful of people, or exclusively on people that are undergoing treatment for obsessive-compulsive fetishism and stuff like that, or convicted sex offenders. I really hope all of those three will generalize poorly to the BDSM-community at large...


(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/6/2007 4:47:40 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


quote:

ORIGINAL: CdnExplorer

I'm sort of the same way, though the background to my sub side is a little different. In every day life I'm pretty dominant, and won't take crap from anybody. I'm not particularly aggressive but I'm really stubborn. I don't bend at all unless something changes my mind. That comes from having to become somewhat independent at a young age I think. I always felt a bit of a submissive urge even when I was young, and family trouble had a strong influence in shaping the character of that side. It left me with some pretty big trust issues. I want to be submissive not only to let down my dominant side / emotional shields, but also to feel a high level of trust in someone.

I've done a lot of thinking about this and I know I simply could not be submissive all the time. My "normal" life strength / dominance is a major part of my identity. For the same reason I couldn't do a 24x7 D/s LTR. I don't have any real urge right now to be sexually dominant, but if I was constantly in a submissive mindset I'd start to feel a pretty big cognitive dissonance. Basically I'd feel like I wasn't being myself, but only acting that way because I was expected to.



I feel also I cannot commit to 24/7 or LTR because of who I am externally,that is real life etc,but internally,private I would like to be in a position where I could totally trust someone and be emotionally naked in their prescence,something I have never been,but yearn to be so.Trust being the word,when that is gained everything else will follow.

I just don't get this. We are all involved in real life.  There are women out there who have realistic expectations.  24/7 means to me that I'm CEO and you are EVP and you handle the business you need to handle.  And that we follow my general direction.  Now that is really just not so onerous.   Those terms and words mean anything you want them to mean, whatever you can creatively envision them to mean.   For me it is not about being barefoot and pregnant 24/7 nor on your knees 24/7 nor being beaten 24/7.  Depends on what you decide it means.  Given my style I don't see why a Fortune 100 CEO couldn't be mine.  And I do know what his life is like.  It simply means always being mine.

I am owned by another.  I have no idea what a "submissive mindset" means.  And I don't need or desire it from my sub partner.   I want someone with a mind who uses it. Who uses that mind in the pursuance of us.  Who speaks up so I don't make stupid mistakes.  Who has a mind and a point of view worth owning.  Who will make a move on me 'cause he wants to, knowing I might rebuff it or I might not.  Or isn't sitting back and waiting.  Who is someone like me. 

It's about ones definitions and ones vision.  Seeing possibilities.  Could we spend a day of intense high protocol and enjoy? Sure.  But that is not what I think it means to surrender long term.  There are sustainable ways.  For the creative.  IMO.



_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/6/2007 5:36:43 PM   
CdnExplorer


Posts: 227
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		Well I'll see if I can clarify a bit what I mean. First off I'd love nothing more than a LTR with a dominant woman who I'm compatible with, it's the 24x7 I think might not work so well.

I understand your point about the CEO / EVP thing, I just think that my vanilla dominance might create problems where the "real world" came into contact with our D/s relationship. Then again maybe not...it isn't something I've ever done before, but if I found someone I trusted enough I'd be willing to try it.

Regarding the "submissive mindset" - when I'm feeling / being submissive it's like a switch flips, and I start thinking differently. Like I'm sort of supressing my desire for control maybe. After a couple of days of feeling this way I start to really not feel like myself, and need to bust out and do things that engage my dominant side. Driving, war games, action movies etc. I think you're probably right that it's all a matter of finding someone with the right style, and who would be ok with the fact that there are some days where I just don't have any D/s drive.

(in reply to arayofsunshine55)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/6/2007 5:48:30 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		Driving, war games, action movies.  Goodness I want a man who has passions which have nothing to do with me. Which he can share with me. Which I can learn about.  Or not share.  I guess I don't divide most pursuits in the world between dominant and submissive.  They just are. I do't even think of running a company as a "dominant" versus submissive act.  For me it is along a differnt continuum.  And not mutually exclusive in the least.  Not I don't want my partner to run me, but I'd love to watch him run the shit out of the rest of his life.  And still be mine.  It is the always being mine which sends me and is my definition of 24/7.  And that might mean going out and hanging with whomever, doing whatever, but knowing if you're gonna be out past what we agreed you need to check in.  Not so onerous.  And ways of doing it which aren't so visible.  And hell many folks who don't do WIITWD have similar agreements.

In the end I want someone who feels free to express himself with me.  Who doesn't need to be any "role" with me.  Who can be fully human.  And yet follow my lead.  I wouldn't want it to be something you feel like you have to get away from because it doesn't feel like you.  But the idea of different levels of protocol etc. might be helpful working through this.  To be able to switch gears as a couple needs to, wants to.  Takes two flexible human beings.

Food for thought.  Thanks for engaging with me.

And all of this from someone who walks both sides.  And who has spent the past 2 years diving deep into a relationship with a man who is really good with me being me.  fully and wholey me.  Which includes the independent, willful, opinionated me.  All of me.  None of it incompatible with being his.  All of it celebrated.  It is possible.


< Message edited by arayofsunshine55 -- 4/6/2007 5:50:45 PM >

_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to CdnExplorer)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/6/2007 6:04:47 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I read an article recently on the internet, that stated that male submissives were closer to their mothers growing up (or at least more influenced by them, than by their fathers), regardless of whether they are heterosexual or homosexual.

While I found that interesting, and think maybe it could be true in some cases, I question whether it's true as a general rule, as far as why males are submissive.

Because I've read lots of stuff about why I, for instance, as a female, am supposedly submissive (I was an abused child, etc.), and none of that it true (for me) - so I just am not sure what to believe. I guess I just take it all into consideration as a possibility (for some men), maybe.

My advice is to take such theories with a large grain of salt. 

The most common mistake I see such theories make is to treat all submissive behavior identically.  The reality is there are many forms of submissive behavior.  There is a considerable difference between someone who submits within a specific context to relieve tension, versus someone who submits because of low self esteem, or someone who submits because of specific self beliefs.  As the motivation for the submission differs, so does the exact form that submission takes.  Someone who has very low self esteem may especially seek out submissive behavior that involves degradation and humiliation because they're trying to relieve the dissonance between how they see themselves and how others treat them (this happens specifically in a case of someone with very low self esteem, but who is outwardly well regarded, they are accorded respect that inwardly they don't feel they deserve which causes stress, the submissive behavior becomes a way to escape that).  The reasons someone may have that low self esteem can be just as complex... it could stem from guilt over past behaviors, trauma from childhood events, trauma in their more recent past, failures at critical moments, etc.

The point being, that the motivations behind submissive behavior (and also dominant behavior) are complex, for which simplistic explanations will never be adequate.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/6/2007 6:34:12 PM   
CdnExplorer


Posts: 227
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline 		No, thank you 

I always enjoy a conversation that leaves me with something to think about. I'm still new enough at this that I haven't fully figured out what I want / need. Discussions like this really help.

(in reply to arayofsunshine55)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/12/2007 3:25:20 AM   
phoenixinchains


Posts: 2534
Joined: 4/5/2007
From: i live here
Status: offline 		lol, everyone has at least one x chromozone, maybe that is where the problem lays. (i never claimed that i could spell) no, imho it's not the genitals but the spirit and personality within. embrace that which you are and love your self. you cannot bring happiness to another if you can't take care of yourself, right?- Phoenix

(in reply to Lashra)
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RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/12/2007 9:47:25 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		Testosterone induces dominance, physical aggressiveness, sexual aggressiveness, increased muscle mass, a need to command and control, and primary and secondary male characteristics.  I submit that dominant males have more testosterone, and less dominant males have less testosterone.    I suspect submissive women are attracted to high testosterone males.  Some females are more feminine, some are are masculine.  Some females have more testosterone and some have less.  I suspect PMS results from excessive levels of testosterone.   Other factors sometimes leading to male submission are low sexual self-esteem, insecurity, and an erroneous belief that most females would rather have someone more submissive than someone less submissive.

Physical, emotional and sexual abuse as a child also leads to submissiveness. 

Neglect and absence of love in childhood can lead to dominance and aggressiveness. 

Humans are imprinted by their first sexual experience.    Females that lost their virginity through rape or incest often secretly enjoy aspects of rape or incest.   One part of their brain might be repulsed or disgusted by it, but the primal sexual part of their brain might crave it.  By being allowing themselves to be bound, they remove the guilt they might otherwise feel for enjoying something they initially found shameful and embareassing. 

The powerful CEO in the boardroom my really be overcompensating for feelings of sexual inadequacy, sexual insecurity, and sexual inferiority, and seek a sexually aggressive female.   When you have a weak position in the real world, you are taught to bow your head, kow tow and submit.    The powerful CEO might know when it comes to sex he is at the low end of the totem pole so acts accordingly.    CEOs know their place in the pecking order.  If they are not good lovers they think they need to be submissive to compensate for their lack of ability.


< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 4/12/2007 10:03:58 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/12/2007 12:44:52 PM   
selfbnd411


Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

, and less dominant males have less testosterone.


What you're really saying is that male dominance/female submission is normal, and female dominance/male submission is abnormal.  You list several possible determinants of male submissive behavior: low testosterone, insecurity, mistaken notions of female wants/desires, and abuse.  I think you can cross the low testosterone one off the list right off the bat--I've had complete blood tests done for other reasons, and my hormone levels are perfectly normal.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find many men who would argue that most women want submissive men as well.  I've never been abused, and I feel secure in the bedroom.

The rape link doesn't fly in my experience either.  I have actually had two dominant female partners in my life who were rape survivors.  There are terrible psychological impacts from rape, but from what they have told me they were into BDSM long before they were raped.

I don't think CEOs who submit do so because of sexual inadequacy.  I think women are attracted to a man more his body (but a nice body helps a lot!).  How else do you explain trolls like Bill Gates or a Alan Greenspan, both of whom are married to gorgeous women?

When you ask a lot of people when they first had the urge to tie someone up or be tied up, it happened when they were very young--7-10 years old.  How do you explain this?  Hormonal differences don't really get going until puberty.  There's not much concious sexual identity, so sexual insecurity isn't a factor.  There's the possibility of abuse, but your guess is as  good as mine as to how many abuse survivors are into BDSM.  Cultural notions of what it means to be a man or a woman aren't deeply ingrained at that age, although there are differences.  To me, this just argues for the simplest explanation--a submissive enjoys submission, and a dominant enjoys dominance.  It's no more complicated than that.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
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RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/12/2007 3:39:05 PM   
iamdevoted2u


Posts: 2
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline 		Lashra and SusanofO were 100% right on the money as far as me and my thoughts.  The passion and desire to prove my worthiness in their eyes is overwhelming sometimes.  Not to go overboard but how are Women NOT the superior gender??  They possess the same intelligence as men which is evident all through society and the world today yet they have the compassion to temper their decisions whereas men are incredibly one dimensional.  Just like cream Women are rising to the top of society.  Sooner or later it was inevitable despite every effort by men to strong arm them down for centuries.

(in reply to Lashra)
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RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/12/2007 11:05:55 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Nope, not testosterone.
 
"Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS) - Cause"


Premenstrual syndrome (PMS) and the more severe form, premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD), are linked to changes in the endocrine system, which produces hormones that control the menstrual cycle. Because the female endocrine system is so complex, medical experts don't fully understand the chain of events that causes PMS in some women and not others.

The one direct cause that is known to affect some women is genetic-many women with PMS have a close family member with a history of PMS.1920

Just as your combination of PMS symptoms is slightly different from another woman's, so is the mix of factors underlying your symptoms. Changes in the endocrine system that cause PMS symptoms can include:
  • Increased aldosterone (a hormone from the adrenal gland). This is normal after ovulation. Aldosterone causes fluid retention, weight gain, breast swelling, and headaches in some women but not others.2324
  • Too much prolactin (a hormone from the pituitary gland), which can interfere with ovulation and cause irregular cycles and breast tenderness.3132
  • The brain's underuse of the neurotransmitter serotonin, which is known to cause anxiety and depression. Experts theorize that many women with PMS mood problems are sensitive to normal premenstrual changes in estrogen and progesterone (from the ovaries). This sensitivity may trigger a problem with the brain's use of serotonin.4344
  • Decreased endorphins (hormones from the pituitary gland), which may increase pain and depression in some women.4546
  • Prostaglandins (chemicals made by all body cells), which are linked to breast pain, fluid retention, cramping, headaches, irritability, and depression.4950
  • Sensitivity to insulin, which is thought to be common during the premenstrual time following ovulation. This sensitivity can lead to episodes of low blood sugar, which some researchers think may trigger premenstrual symptoms.5354 "

http://women.webmd.com/tc/Premenstrual-Syndrome-PMS-Cause


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
I suspect PMS results from excessive levels of testosterone.  


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
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RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/12/2007 11:21:11 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		 
General reply -

"Men and violence: do you have a problem with that? - Web MD"

"Chemical reaction"

"If violent acts are not simply the result of frustration at external events, could hormones be to blame?

There has been much controversy as to the role of male hormones in aggression.

Some argue that testosterone predisposes men to aggression. This has been borne out in part by studies that show men who abuse steroids while bodybuilding are more aggressive and explosive than those who do not.

It is beyond argument that men have more testosterone in their circulation than females and that men are more aggressive.

  • Typically, males produce about 25 times as much testosterone per day as females.

  • Male testosterone levels peak in the late teens and remain high until the mid-20s: precisely the time in which male aggressiveness and violence is most common.

    But it's clear that testosterone does not in itself lead to violence. The evidence from studies on bodybuilders cannot be taken entirely at face value.

    Individuals who abuse anabolic steroids often abuse other drugs too, including alcohol, cocaine and amphetamines, and are often highly aggressive and competitive prior to this abuse.

    While it's likely that increased levels of testosterone aggravate a tendency towards violence in some men, it does not follow that all men are naturally violent."

    http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/feature/men_and_violence.htm


    _____________________________

    "Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
    So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
    great day, I will tease you all the same."
    "WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


    http://KinkMeet.co.uk

    (in reply to Vendaval)
    • Profile   Post #: 52
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/12/2007 11:56:58 PM   
    FukinTroll


    Posts: 6277
    Joined: 2/6/2007
    From: Under a bridge
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

    Testosterone induces dominance, physical aggressiveness, sexual aggressiveness, increased muscle mass, a need to command and control, and primary and secondary male characteristics.  I submit that dominant males have more testosterone, and less dominant males have less testosterone.    I suspect submissive women are attracted to high testosterone males.  Some females are more feminine, some are are masculine.  Some females have more testosterone and some have less.  I suspect PMS results from excessive levels of testosterone.   Other factors sometimes leading to male submission are low sexual self-esteem, insecurity, and an erroneous belief that most females would rather have someone more submissive than someone less submissive.

    Physical, emotional and sexual abuse as a child also leads to submissiveness. 

    Neglect and absence of love in childhood can lead to dominance and aggressiveness. 

    Humans are imprinted by their first sexual experience.    Females that lost their virginity through rape or incest often secretly enjoy aspects of rape or incest.   One part of their brain might be repulsed or disgusted by it, but the primal sexual part of their brain might crave it.  By being allowing themselves to be bound, they remove the guilt they might otherwise feel for enjoying something they initially found shameful and embareassing. 

    The powerful CEO in the boardroom my really be overcompensating for feelings of sexual inadequacy, sexual insecurity, and sexual inferiority, and seek a sexually aggressive female.   When you have a weak position in the real world, you are taught to bow your head, kow tow and submit.    The powerful CEO might know when it comes to sex he is at the low end of the totem pole so acts accordingly.    CEOs know their place in the pecking order.  If they are not good lovers they think they need to be submissive to compensate for their lack of ability.



    Ladies and Gents we have our new Cliff Claven!

    _____________________________

    I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

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    The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

    (in reply to WhipTheHip)
    Profile   Post #: 53
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/13/2007 12:08:17 AM   
    SDFemDom4cuck


    Posts: 2809
    Joined: 5/23/2005
    From: P'burgh PA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    Ladies and Gents we have our new Cliff Claven!


    SlurpyTroll, I forgive you your oreo crushing ways and raise you back upon your piedmont.

    Ven....you're quicker than I. I was searching out something other than my medical texts to refute his idiotic assumptions (looks around with a nod at Mod 11 to verify compliance) regarding PMS and testosterone. Woot!


    _____________________________

    Ms Jo

    She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
    How glittering they shone -
    And every One unbared a Nerve
    Or wantoned with a Bone -

    I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

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    Profile   Post #: 54
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/13/2007 12:26:58 AM   
    useandabusemeplz


    Posts: 11
    Joined: 2/4/2005
    Status: offline     		I think it a accepted fact amomg those "in the know" that sexual drive and anger come from the same place in the psyche.

    (in reply to Vendaval)
    Profile   Post #: 55
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/13/2007 12:28:08 AM   
    useandabusemeplz


    Posts: 11
    Joined: 2/4/2005
    Status: offline     		That message i just posted was in reply to Vendaval, curious if you agree?

    (in reply to useandabusemeplz)
    Profile   Post #: 56
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/13/2007 12:33:18 AM   
    Vendaval


    Posts: 10297
    Joined: 1/15/2005
    Status: offline     		Are you referring to the primitive brain?  The reptile brain?

    _____________________________

    "Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
    So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
    great day, I will tease you all the same."
    "WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


    http://KinkMeet.co.uk

    (in reply to useandabusemeplz)
    Profile   Post #: 57
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/13/2007 12:40:34 AM   
    useandabusemeplz


    Posts: 11
    Joined: 2/4/2005
    Status: offline     		In all honesty, the brain in general.

    (in reply to Vendaval)
    Profile   Post #: 58
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/13/2007 12:43:01 AM   
    Vendaval


    Posts: 10297
    Joined: 1/15/2005
    Status: offline     		Well, all of our "basic instincts" are geared toward survival.
    Sex and violence go hand in hand.  

    _____________________________

    "Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
    So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
    great day, I will tease you all the same."
    "WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


    http://KinkMeet.co.uk

    (in reply to useandabusemeplz)
    Profile   Post #: 59
    RE: Why does a male feel the need to submit? - 4/13/2007 4:12:53 AM   
    CuriousLord


    Posts: 3911
    Joined: 4/3/2007
    Status: offline     		You should feel it sometime.
    The certainty of action.
    The feeling of unyielding strength.
    The deep feeling of hatred.
    The tendancy to grow annoyed with even typically-negliable sleights.

    This hormone does not force one to be violent.  However, when it rushes like this, I, who typically enjoys a great deal of peace, have a deep seeded desire to fight.

    It's passion.
    It's rage.
    It's hatred.
    At times, it's inspiration.


    EDIT:  It also kills your focus.  And your grammar.  This is examplified above.

    < Message edited by CuriousLord -- 4/13/2007 4:14:25 AM >

    (in reply to Vendaval)
    Profile   Post #: 60
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