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Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 12:00:13 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Something keeps coming up and is bothering Me, but I am not sure what the right answer is. Or, perhaps it is right in front of My face and I can not see it.

I will not take a "no" for an answer. I am quite insistent that My sub-in-training use her safeword to stop any play.

However, she appears to be overusing it and it is starting to bother Me. I tell her not to get changed yet when she asks, she states her safeword and goes ahead and does it anyways. If she does not want to be hugged or touched, out comes the safeword. If there is anything that is contrary to what she wants she uses the safeword.

I am just not sure if that is the acceptable use for it or not. I did bring it upon Myself for not accepting no for an answer, this is true. However, as no can often mean yes I prefer the safeword. That way there is never any room for misunderstandings. I know exactly what it means and I always honor it immediately.

What is bothering Me is that when used in this fashion she is simply overriding My "dominance" for lack of a better way of putting it at her convenience.

Is this right? Is this to be considered acceptable? If it is, I will live with it no problem. If it is not, however, I need to have a talk with her.

Thanks for Y/your help.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 12:14:51 PM   
SecretDomme


Posts: 152
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline 		Hi SirKenin,

My understanding of a safeword is that it is a way to stop play when things get too intense or when trouble occurs, which is what you appear to believe as well. It sounds like your sub does not have a clear understanding of when to use it. Did you specify that the safeword is used only in scenes?

If you will not take "no" for an answer, it sounds like she is not quite ready for that level of submission because she is putting a stop to what you want to do with her use of the word. If she is using the safeword in your daily interactions, I would really encourage sitting her down to find out what she is expecting from your D/s relationship and see if it matches your understanding of it.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 12:16:00 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		Well, it seems to me that she is she is using the safe word as a substitute for "no". So, like it or not, you are indeed taking no for an answer. Maybe this issue could be resolved with better communication. Like a "speak freely" session or something.

My slave and I talk a LOT....we're a coupla regular windbags at times. It's worked out well, because we know what to expect from each other. Don't get me wrong; we're still learning about each other. But keeping the communication channels open has served us well.

Bob

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 12:37:13 PM   
lil1v


Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Something keeps coming up and is bothering Me, but I am not sure what the right answer is. Or, perhaps it is right in front of My face and I can not see it.

I will not take a "no" for an answer. I am quite insistent that My sub-in-training use her safeword to stop any play.


Safewords are good, very good things.. when used correctly.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

However, she appears to be overusing it and it is starting to bother Me. I tell her not to get changed yet when she asks, she states her safeword and goes ahead and does it anyways. If she does not want to be hugged or touched, out comes the safeword. If there is anything that is contrary to what she wants she uses the safeword.


Ok.. Before we get too far into this.. I'm pretty new to this.. so you can take this as whatever grain of salt you like.. But to me a "safeword" is for safety. Getting "changed" is not a safe issue. Hugging and touching .. not a safe issue.

You need to talk to her.. I know you said you don't take "NO" as answer. But if she said "I would rather not Sir" and then waited to see if you would allow her "not to".. or if she said "I don't want to, but I will Sir".. I dunno.. but to me what she is doing is abusing the safeword and in a way using the safeword to top from the bottom.

She may need to be allowed at these times to express how she is feeling but may not know how to do that. You need to help her and teach her what you would accept as an appropriate way for her to express this.

From your statement of when and how she's using her safeword, it just disturbs me. My safeword was sacred to me, only used in the actual act of play, and then only to stop it so I could explain why I safeworded so we could talk and decide if to continue or not. I also had different levels of safewords as well. One if I had a problem like a leg cramp or insane need to pee or some such timeout moment so I could express some need. I had another that was a "STOP" aka "stop now or for your safety you'll have to sleep behind a locked door for a week"

Communication is key to D/s relationships and to me.. she either doesn't understand the significance of the safeword, or she needs to communicate but feels she cannot or its not allowed.

But definately you two need to have a big talk.

_____________________________

V



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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 12:41:10 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Sir Kenin,
I can count on one hand the number of times I have used a safeword over the course of all of my years in this lifestyle. It is and very much should be a last resort. It is not something that one uses because they don't feel like doing something.

With all due respect, if these problems are arising with the same submissive that was intensely discussed by you a month or so ago, I would go back and read the responses to that post because I believe that most of them still apply. The core issue is still the same.

_____________________________

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 1:15:03 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I am reading all these replies and will have her read them too, but until then, this is not the same sub. I should make that clear. The "topping from the bottom" thing is coming to mind as one poster said for some reason.

Anyways, carry on. I appreciate the input and need as much as I can get. In the meantime I will talk to her about ways to approach Me as opposed to using her safe word and what it is I expect of her. I will talk to her about all these other things and any more that come up in this thread.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 3:34:01 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Kenin,

There has been a lot of activity recently regarding safe words over on the safeword thread in the Health & Safety board. I would suggest giving them a once over, as they have a lot of good information.

As for your specific situation, I would venture a suggestion that you sit down with the submissive and talk with her for a good hour 'outside of character' so to speak, i.e. not 'Master addressing his property' but rather encourage an honest and clear conversation about what you both want/need out of the relationship. Do -not- take 'I don't know' or 'I'm too new' as an acceptable answer, and neither have a 'BDSM' checklist in hand for this discussion, as it would probably be counterproductive. Instead, more basic questions like 'What do you find appealing about BDSM/Ds/Alternative lifestyles/Whateveryouwanttocallyourparticularstyleofplay' and 'What sort of activities do you expect or desire?' The answers 'whatever you want' don't work here either, as the situation you are describing sounds like a combination of general uneasiness with what appears to be a new situation for her, and a dislike of specific activities that you are interested in. I have a bit of a chuckle, remembering the scene from 'The Secretary' where the girl had a 'date' with a man who wanted to be chained to his stove and have her throw tomatoes at him, the whole time saying 'THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!' I rather doubt you have a tomatoe fetish, but you might simply be trying to 'explore' areas that she finds distasteful. To be fair, this happens at some point or another, but even the most obedient submissive starts to get bored or frustrated if she can't stand the activities she's doing.

I hope this helps, and best of luck!

Stephan

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 3:43:53 PM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		i actualy prefer not to have a safeword. But then i trust my Dom 100 percent and if he see i can not handel somthing he will ask me if i am ok, we prefer clear comunication like that and not code words for the same thing. If i am tied to tightly and my hands do feel totaly numb i will tell him Master my hands are getting werry numb. Or if i can not handel somthing, even if it has not come to that yet, i will tell him so, or express it in some way.

(in reply to Voltare)
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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 3:46:21 PM   
Tempestspet


Posts: 360
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I am reading all these replies and will have her read them too, but until then, this is not the same sub. I should make that clear. The "topping from the bottom" thing is coming to mind as one poster said for some reason.

Anyways, carry on. I appreciate the input and need as much as I can get. In the meantime I will talk to her about ways to approach Me as opposed to using her safe word and what it is I expect of her. I will talk to her about all these other things and any more that come up in this thread.


Topping from the bottom does indeed come to mind when thinking about this situation.
I was about to ask if this was the same sub as the one, in that other thread awhile back.

I'm with a few others... probably all other *smiles* .. in that you need to sit her down and ask what she wants from this lifestyle... sounds like perhaps that scene play is fun for her, we don't here that she's using her safe word there... but the 24/7 day to day life of it, is not her cup of tea.

Just my thoughts...

Tempest's pet
Jennifer

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 7:24:06 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Something keeps coming up and is bothering Me, but I am not sure what the right answer is. Or, perhaps it is right in front of My face and I can not see it.

I will not take a "no" for an answer. I am quite insistent that My sub-in-training use her safeword to stop any play.

However, she appears to be overusing it and it is starting to bother Me. I tell her not to get changed yet when she asks, she states her safeword and goes ahead and does it anyways. If she does not want to be hugged or touched, out comes the safeword. If there is anything that is contrary to what she wants she uses the safeword.

I am just not sure if that is the acceptable use for it or not. I did bring it upon Myself for not accepting no for an answer, this is true. However, as no can often mean yes I prefer the safeword. That way there is never any room for misunderstandings. I know exactly what it means and I always honor it immediately.

What is bothering Me is that when used in this fashion she is simply overriding My "dominance" for lack of a better way of putting it at her convenience.

Is this right? Is this to be considered acceptable? If it is, I will live with it no problem. If it is not, however, I need to have a talk with her.

Thanks for Y/your help.


We are 32 flavors and then some, as the song goes...

We can talk about this til the cows come home really, but the bottom line I think is this: if you feel manipulated, if you feel she's overusing the safeword in inappropriate circumstances and if you aren't comfortable with it, why are you allowing it to continue?

Unfortunately, I agree with the others, she's clearly topping you from the bottom. But honestly, it's not her behavior that I'm interested in. It's Yours.

If she's a submissive and you are the Dominant, why are you letting her control things? It seems to me that you have some fear here and that's something you should look at.

In this situation, if I were able to easily manipulate a Dominant by using a safe word to get my way because I'm not allowed to use the word no, I would gather that I had little or no respect for him to begin with . And if this were the case, I'd be up shit creek in any number of ways.

There is no 'one way'. With the exception of practicing WIIWD in ways that don't physically or emotionally harm someone, it really becomes up to the Domiant (and the submissive too, although once and agreement is come to, she needs to uphold her end of the bargain through the dynamic) to decide on what is acceptable and what is not. The Dominant, by definition and nature, should be the one guiding and controlling the situation. When that control breaksdown, there's a problem.

I would encourage you to do an inventory for yourself. Decide what is right for you, and persue a girl who will fit your needs. Clearly, this one you are training has the upper hand and has stolen some amount of control from you.

All the best,
Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 7:55:55 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Yup that is blatent over use of the safeword. And blatent disregard of your authority to change anyway if you said not now.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 8:27:10 PM   
Overlord218


Posts: 53
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry My friend, safewords IMHO should only apply during a scene, not day to day stuff. And in that scenario, I use a 2 level system, i.e. amber is used when she feels she's nearing her tolerance limit and red to stop, cease and desist immediately.

If she were Mine? she wouldn't be...

What I'd be doing is sitting her down and telling her straight to cut the crap. Tell her >>>>exactly<<<< what is expected of her, and unless she stops trying to top you from the bottom, all and any training will cease.

Until you do that, it ain't ever going to be any different.



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A little pain is good for the soul. Ask any masochist.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 8:40:13 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Unfortunately, I agree with the others, she's clearly topping you from the bottom. But honestly, it's not her behavior that I'm interested in. It's Yours.

If she's a submissive and you are the Dominant, why are you letting her control things?


I have to say that Lily has a valid point here. Please understand that I mean you no disrespect when I say that this seems to be a recurring theme, at least with your last two subs. That says to me that either you are somewhat uncomfortable or unsure about taking the Dominant role or you are choosing women for some reason who are not of the level of submission that you are seeking.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 9:27:22 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		Gag her. Then you won't have to hear that damned safe word come out of her little mouth.

Sounds like she's topping from the bottom via her safe word. Sometimes submission has to be drawn out of a person. Why don't you set up a scene with very strict limits in regards to length of time and amount of pain? That way the situation has a certain amount of control without giving her too much control.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 10:13:55 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		Everyone is so sure she's topping from below...I guess I'm looking at it differently.

What if she's just learning? I mean, what if this is a growth period, and one where understanding isn't quite perfect? I guess I see this as a case of not quite knowing when to use a safeword, nor quite knowing what she herself wants/trusts her partner to do...

I'd be hestiant to say thing girl is "blatantly disregarding authority" so much as being unsure where that authority is and unused to it being exerted over her life. I think -talking- is in order, not abandoning her nor judging her.

_____________________________

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 11:35:01 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

Well, it seems to me that she is she is using the safe word as a substitute for "no". So, like it or not, you are indeed taking no for an answer. Maybe this issue could be resolved with better communication. Like a "speak freely" session or something.

Bingo!
If you had six submissives stranded on a desert island, *one* of them would take charge for the greater good of all. Even though you're not a sub, you're also not taking charge and someone needs to because D/s relationships are basically about unequal control....

Subs often push the boundaries to see what they can get away with. It's not that they want control so much as seek reassurance that they don't have control. A sub who does can be the brat from hell but ultimately miserable, too!

Assuming she really is submissive, the best way to fix this is for you to take charge! Say what you mean and back it up by meaning what you say! And lead by example as well as words. First order of business is defining what a safe-word *means* - clothing choice, for example, is not a safety issue....

Focus50.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 11:42:11 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
quote:

If she's a submissive and you are the Dominant, why are you letting her control things?

That says to me that either you are somewhat uncomfortable or unsure about taking the Dominant role or you are choosing women for some reason who are not of the level of submission that you are seeking

Dear Sirkenin,
I agree with Lily and Erin, doesn't sound like you have good control of the situation; your pet does (a not-so-obedient pet, unlike you ask for in your profile)... Perhaps the kind and considerate man needs to take a backseat to the man who needs to run the show.
I think that after sitting with her and discussing likes/dislikes/needs, and discussing appropriate uses for a safeword, you two should discuss your fit. Have you given her alternatives to "no", like "would sir please consider this wish/desire of mine?" instead. Discuss what she is willing/unwilling to do/accept, and what you are willing or unwilling to accept, because your questions say to me that plenty of manipulation is happening, and not only do you two not want similar things, her desires/needs override yours even in simple instances (like hugging or changing clothes). Good luck in resolving, M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/16/2005 11:59:29 PM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		I agree that it sounds like a lack of communication. Perhaps she's unclear about what your expectations of her behavior are or perhaps you haven't negotiated specific areas of authority. My girl will occasionally balk at something but when she does it's usually easily handled by reminding her that what I'm asking falls within the parameters of our agreement. The use of a safeword to circumvent that agreement, which is the feel I get from your post, would be grounds for release.
I would, as others have suggested, have a nice talk with her and make sure that your both on the same page.
Timothy

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/17/2005 12:09:40 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		I'm pretty much with everyone else here ... a "safe"word should be used when a submissive doesn't feel safe - which shouldn't be happening in day to day life and if it is, then they should get the heck out of Dodge ...

We have yet to hear the "stop" safeword from any of the boys that we have played with in the last 3 years, but we have heard "you know, lets talk about this" and "I don't like that" and variations of those - we discussed at the beginning what we expect from them and what they expect from us ... obviously it hasn't always worked out, but they did not use their safeword to get out of doing something they didn't want. When I am feeling particularly cuddly, and our boy isn't, he tells me - or he puts up with it because he knows how important physical contact is for me. Knowing that he's not as touchy feely as I am, I do try to take that into consideration and he appreciates that so he doesn't feel the need to tell me to go away. But the bottom line is that we have talked about it, and will continue to talk about it.

You need to explain to her what a safeword is to be used for, and when it is not to be used. You need to explain to her how her overuse of her safeword affects you. You need to have her explain to you why she uses it so much, what she thinks that it means, etc. New or not, she is topping from the bottom - perhaps not intentionally, but she is - and it's up to you to either put a stop to it, or decide to put up with it.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/17/2005 1:32:43 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		LOL see I find it quite amusing. If she safewords- fine, stop everything and go about what you were doing before. She will either learn to stop safewording or you will have the most clear line of communication a Ms relationship has ever had.

What you could do is use the green yellow red system, this allows for greater flexibility than just yes or no.

For me, safewords mean "danger, stop NOW" not "I dont want it" or "that makes me feel uneasy." It's an immediate way for someone to get your attention because they are about to fall off of a beam, they are about to faint or something. Generally, I prefer I or they simply SAY whats wrong rather than safewording first, but in role play scenes that can be tricky.

So perhaps change the meaning of the safeword to be "physically in danger" and otherwise having to directly communicate their feelings, not just a one-word catch all.

Or, just let her keep safewording and you just keep following her safeword. I'd find it hysterical listening to a sub safewording all the time.

(in reply to SweetDommes)
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