RE: Overuse of a safeword?

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 7:13:05 AM

ProtagonistLily

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Joined: 12/27/2004
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At the risk of sounding like a complete biatch, WTF are you talking about?

In less than 3 months, you've had 3 differant girls, all of which you've written about having some kind of problem with. Now, the current girl who you have come here for help with has made a miraculous recovery from the naughtiness you described in your initial post on this thread, you are moving in with her and love her to bits.

I'm wondering if there isn't something bigger going on here. I think you'd do yourself a favor by taking a seriuos look at what appears to be a need for you to have someone in your life constantly, regardless of your kinky proclivities.

YMMV,

L

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Post #: 41

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 7:24:41 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

To figure out whether she is going to surrender control in those areas or not.

this sounds like something that should be worked out before people become entangled in a relationship. not just YOUR relationship with this girl or any other, but in general. given the circumstances and problems that You came here with the last girl, or girls, it seems like it is the same story......how can You expect the outcome to be any different than it has with the last girl or girls...

p.s. using a safeword to get out of answering a question? infantile.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/20/2005 7:25:54 AM >

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 42

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 7:47:27 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

At the risk of sounding like a complete biatch, WTF are you talking about?

In less than 3 months, you've had 3 differant girls, all of which you've written about having some kind of problem with. Now, the current girl who you have come here for help with has made a miraculous recovery from the naughtiness you described in your initial post on this thread, you are moving in with her and love her to bits.

I'm wondering if there isn't something bigger going on here. I think you'd do yourself a favor by taking a seriuos look at what appears to be a need for you to have someone in your life constantly, regardless of your kinky proclivities.

YMMV,

L

lol. you don't sound like a complete biatch. your concerns are valid. Actually, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to them. I love her without the BDSM. I actually started dating her for who she was as a person. As W/we started talking and getting to know each other I loved her more and realized that I had someone special. W/we spent hours a day for weeks talking. W/we still do actually.

she does struggle in a couple of areas. she's not the picture perfect sub yet, but she has come so far and learned so much. This is just a minor hiccup. I am not even worried about it in the grand scheme of things. The measure of a true sub is not how she behaves when things are going good, it's how she reacts in the midst of conflict as far as I am concerned.

I will stay with this girl even if the BDSM thing does not work out. That is not the chief component of O/our relationship. I do want to get this resolved, however. I see so much potential there.

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Post #: 43

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 8:00:02 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

To figure out whether she is going to surrender control in those areas or not.

this sounds like something that should be worked out before people become entangled in a relationship. not just YOUR relationship with this girl or any other, but in general. given the circumstances and problems that You came here with the last girl, or girls, it seems like it is the same story......how can You expect the outcome to be any different than it has with the last girl or girls...

p.s. using a safeword to get out of answering a question? infantile.

I was hoping You would show up.

The funny thing about your post is that I was thinking the exact same thing last night when W/we were discussing these two issues. In fact I even told her that I felt like I was getting into the same problem as before. It is almost uncanny that the very same sentiment shows up in a post today, from You of all people Whom I respect very much.

I have thought about it and I do not think I am if I look at the much bigger picture. It is all boiling down to two issues, one of them insignificant. The other one I can actually live with if I had to I think. When I think of the two scenarios, they are very much dissimilar.

Now, W/we have to bear in mind that she is very young and brand new to the lifestyle. It is My responsibility to teach her and I did not give her an alternative to the safe word until the other day. I explained to her that instead I expect her to use "Sir, if it pleases you", "Sir, if you please" or "Sir, this is making me feel uncomfortable because" which will cause Me to stop and discuss with her that which is making her feel uneasy. To be honest with you it is as much My fault as hers, if not more so. However, I think that situation has been remedied.

Now to get into the deeper issue as to why she felt it necessary to do that and I am beginning to understand why after her taking the time to spell her mind out to Me. W/we're still working on it. W/we still need to hash out the issues and that is why I said any further advice is very much appreciated, whether it is something I might want to hear or not.

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Post #: 44

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 8:34:55 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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Sir Kenin,
I am a "hard liner" about safe words. I believe there is really only one - TRUST. Trust can only come from communication, HONEST communication. The thought of using a safe word to avoid answering a question sets a hurdle that can not be overcome.

I also believe that when a sub (In the 'World according to Merc' slaves do not have safe-words.) uses a safe word it reflects failure of the Dom. I couldn't handle this much "failure" in a relationship. I appreciate you taking a responsibility to teach her, but you have to remain responsible to yourself, your desires, and your relationship goals. That is an important question. Before embarking on your path with this sub did you sit down and discuss your goals? Hers? And what you and her had as common goals?

Youth and lack of lifestyle experience really shouldn't be used to rationalize. There are many young people able to recognize their core desires, accept them, and commit to fulfilling them. However, maturity or immaturity is not a direct correlation of how many times a person has ridden the planet around the sun.

The most difficult thing to do sometimes is to recognize when it's time to walk away. I'm sure you have an emotional investment with her. You spent time finding each other, getting to know each other, and eventually you've gotten to this point. It's difficult to even think about starting that all over again from scratch. But unless you are willing to accept mediocrity or compromise you could end up being the 'slave' in this relationship. My image of a dom who allows a submissive to dictate the terms and path is that of a sensation facilitator. Sure you are at the handle end of the whip, but it's the sub who controls which whip to use, the pace, the strength of impact, and the duration. I'd rather just attach a paddle to the end of a variable speed fan and give it to her as a parting gift. Then instead of a safe word she could just pull the plug, get into bed, and fall asleep to the soothing hum of her "magic rabbit".

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 45

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 8:39:49 AM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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hahahaha. I'll reply more in full when I am finished laughing My ass off. That last paragraph killed Me. A fan and a paddle. Bwahaha.

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Post #: 46

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 10:57:50 AM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Sir Kenin,
I am a "hard liner" about safe words. I believe there is really only one - TRUST. Trust can only come from communication, HONEST communication. The thought of using a safe word to avoid answering a question sets a hurdle that can not be overcome.

I should set this clear. she is not safewording to a question. she was feeling "smothered" when she walked in the door. she did not want to be molested so to speak and I did not yet teach her the proper way to address Me in that situation. As such I feel that is My short coming and I feel uncomfortable pinning it on her. I need to be fair to her and recognize that she has needs to and needs a time to unwind after a gruelling day at work. I think that is reasonable, do You?

quote:

I also believe that when a sub (In the 'World according to Merc' slaves do not have safe-words.) uses a safe word it reflects failure of the Dom. I couldn't handle this much "failure" in a relationship. I appreciate you taking a responsibility to teach her, but you have to remain responsible to yourself, your desires, and your relationship goals. That is an important question. Before embarking on your path with this sub did you sit down and discuss your goals? Hers? And what you and her had as common goals?

I wish to stay true to Myself at all costs. I know what I want in a relationship. I know that I have very high expectations that not every woman can assume. W/we have talked about it in great length already, because as you said it is equally important for Me to know what her goals and expectations are. W/we do have quite a few goals in common actually. W/we have had numerous fruitful discussions to that effect already. Sometimes I think I just have to be more sensitive to your needs. I hate to say it in a way, but You are right. If a sub feels inclined to back out of a situation, it indicates My failure. As embarassing as that is to admit.

quote:

Youth and lack of lifestyle experience really shouldn't be used to rationalize. There are many young people able to recognize their core desires, accept them, and commit to fulfilling them. However, maturity or immaturity is not a direct correlation of how many times a person has ridden the planet around the sun.

I think the role youth is playing is that she just is not quite sure how to react in certain situations. In most situations she is amazing. she behaves extremely well and certainly lives up to My expectations. Every now and again, however, these same two situations come up and as of yet have not been satisfactorily addressed. Again, I take as much responsibility for this as she does. I feel that it is My role to teach her properly. It is a real challenge. So far very satisfying, it is true, but a challenge none the less.

quote:

The most difficult thing to do sometimes is to recognize when it's time to walk away. I'm sure you have an emotional investment with her. You spent time finding each other, getting to know each other, and eventually you've gotten to this point. It's difficult to even think about starting that all over again from scratch. But unless you are willing to accept mediocrity or compromise you could end up being the 'slave' in this relationship. My image of a dom who allows a submissive to dictate the terms and path is that of a sensation facilitator. Sure you are at the handle end of the whip, but it's the sub who controls which whip to use, the pace, the strength of impact, and the duration. I'd rather just attach a paddle to the end of a variable speed fan and give it to her as a parting gift. Then instead of a safe word she could just pull the plug, get into bed, and fall asleep to the soothing hum of her "magic rabbit".

I do not feel the need is there to even consider walking away. I love her in such a way that I will simply discard pursuing the lifestyle before I will walk away. As a matter of fact, I started dating her without ever thinking of pursuing the lifestyle with her to begin with. she simply developed a desire to serve the more she got to know Me. she has cited many reasons why that is the case. In one, she states that I have something about Me that compells someone to listen. How odd. However.. Certainly in most things she does that quite well. W/we just have to consider a compromise with this cleaning thing. she is having a rough time with commuting to and from work, working a stressful day and coming home to have to clean. As it is I let her safely walk in the door and unwind before I pounce on her. The money is ok. I do not need control over her personal spending. I guess it is up to Me to consider her needs with the cleaning as well and go easier on her or something.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 47

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 11:05:39 AM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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Only thing is this. Can a vanilla relationship work with a Dom with high expectations such as mine? Can I dumb them down at all to pursue a normal relationship? Not that I think I will have to, but it is a thought.

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Post #: 48

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 11:15:49 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Only thing is this. Can a vanilla relationship work with a Dom with high expectations such as mine? Can I dumb them down at all to pursue a normal relationship? Not that I think I will have to, but it is a thought.

I don't think dominants have higher expectations of their slaves than vanilla husbands do of their wives- they have a totally different set of expectations.

So, you can still expect and want the same things as a vanilla husband, but you'll get very different consequences.

You can still expect finances to be well managed and a house to be kept clean...you just can't expect the wife to obey and be the one doing it all.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 49

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 11:30:00 AM

Tempestspet

Posts: 360
Joined: 1/13/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

lol. you don't sound like a complete biatch. your concerns are valid. Actually, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to them. I love her without the BDSM. I actually started dating her for who she was as a person. As W/we started talking and getting to know each other I loved her more and realized that I had someone special. W/we spent hours a day for weeks talking. W/we still do actually.

she does struggle in a couple of areas. she's not the picture perfect sub yet, but she has come so far and learned so much. This is just a minor hiccup. I am not even worried about it in the grand scheme of things. The measure of a true sub is not how she behaves when things are going good, it's how she reacts in the midst of conflict as far as I am concerned.

I will stay with this girl even if the BDSM thing does not work out. That is not the chief component of O/our relationship. I do want to get this resolved, however. I see so much potential there.

If you weren't worried about her minor hicups you would not have felt compelled to open your relationship to all of us. Minor hiccups are not cause for major takings on such as this. Little hicups are somehting you sit down andtalk with her about.
The hicups you are referring to with the safe -- this isn't minor. Safe words aren't meant to be used this way, as we have heard so many say previously. Personally, I have never used my safe word with Master. This doesn't make me a super sub, or "better" sub.. stronger and all that crap... what it makes my Master is carefully, and good at what he does. That comes with experience, and time. He knows me almost better than I do. We have had a long time to know each other though. It will come for you too.!!..smiles...

And the measure of a sub, and reflection on you also, is both when she's good, and this should be most if not all the time... I'm thinking realistically here...smiles... and how she reacts when things are tough.

I do wish you luck with your relationship, I hope it works for both of you.

Sincerely,
Tempests' pet
jennifer

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 50

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 11:45:33 AM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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No, I feel it important to get other people's advice, no matter how great or small the issue is. When I can not resolve it in My own head, many heads are always better than one. I have nothing to hide. I have no problems sharing the issues with experts on a message board to get their feedback. More than once that has paid off in spades (look at the finances thread as one example). I think it is a great exercise. If nothing else it gets My thoughts out onto a medium so I can sort through them better. As it is, I already see more clearly on this simple issue just by talking it through with you guys (and got some good laughs out of it while I was at it.. Thanks Merc. rofl)

I think this venue is worth it's weight in gold. No matter how big or small the issue is. That is what keeps Me coming back for more. I learn new things every day.

The use of the safeword was My mistake, My shortcoming. I admit that. I am getting to know her and Myself better all the time, and as I do, uncomfortable situations will present themselves less and less. I am happy to say that she has not used any in several days. I am VERY happy to say that they do not come up at all in any of O/our scenes, so I am doing something right. I just need to learn when she needs her space as she gets in the door. That is My fault. Once in the past couple of days she had to remind Me that she was uncomfortable (she used the new terminology. I am so proud of her) and I immediately backed down, realizing what I had done.

I am not perfect, I never will be, but I grow each day and I am very proud to say that she is too. I really think this will work. I sure hope it does.

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Post #: 51

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 12:03:03 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Only thing is this. Can a vanilla relationship work with a Dom with high expectations such as mine? Can I dumb them down at all to pursue a normal relationship? Not that I think I will have to, but it is a thought.

Dumb them down? With all due respect, the "dumbness" in you relationship based on what I have heard has come on your end.

You talk about her youth and inexperience, yet your mature relationship skills couldn't help you realize that the fact that she was "safewording" the moment she walked in the door and you pounced on her probably meant she needed downtime, space, and some breathing room? She had to tell you that you were overbearing, smothering, and she was overwhelmed and overworked and exhausted? Do "Y/you" communmicate at all on any normal relationship level?

I think 24/7 type uber dom situations only work if the dominant person has the skills and empathy to *read* their partner and not put them into situations where the submission is uncomfortable, disappointing, or damaging to the overall relationship. In most cases, it's as easy as realizing it's good to wait 15 or 20 minutes after your partner gets home to allow her to "switch gears" in her mind so she can be better prepared to engage in emotionally charged activities.

Akasha

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Post #: 52

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 12:22:09 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think 24/7 type uber dom situations only work if the dominant person has the skills and empathy to *read* their partner and not put them into situations where the submission is uncomfortable, disappointing, or damaging to the overall relationship. In most cases, it's as easy as realizing it's good to wait 15 or 20 minutes after your partner gets home to allow her to "switch gears" in her mind so she can be better prepared to engage in emotionally charged activities.

Akasha

I realize that, but I could not see it (wayyyyy too much on My mind at the moment). It was thanks to talking it out with her and in here that helped Me see something so simple that I missed. I can not wait to get this move over with. *sigh* I still have not completely worked out the cleaning thing yet however.

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Post #: 53

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 12:45:30 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I think 24/7 type uber dom situations only work if the dominant person has the skills and empathy to *read* their partner and not put them into situations where the submission is uncomfortable, disappointing, or damaging to the overall relationship. In most cases, it's as easy as realizing it's good to wait 15 or 20 minutes after your partner gets home to allow her to "switch gears" in her mind so she can be better prepared to engage in emotionally charged activities.

Akasha

I realize that, but I could not see it (wayyyyy too much on My mind at the moment). It was thanks to talking it out with her and in here that helped Me see something so simple that I missed. I can not wait to get this move over with. *sigh* I still have not completely worked out the cleaning thing yet however.

I question your emotional availability and priorities if you had "too much on your mind" to recognize and address a large breakdown in communication, then come here to scratch your head about overuse of safewords, only to then realize you should sit down and talk with your partner.

You seem to lack some relationship/communication skills that are critical if your relationship is going to work. That should be your priority right now, not figuring out how you can get her to clean if she's over-extended.

Akasha

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Post #: 54

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 1:03:52 PM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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Akasha, maybe that is because you don't realize what is on O/our plate at the moment. I am doing the absolute best I can but both of U/us are severely overextended at the moment. Now W/we had a breakdown in our communication which on the whole is amazing, but was starting to choke for a couple of days up until yesterday. That problem has been resolved. I just wanted to let her know how much she was loved, wanted and appreciated but just getting in the door turned out to be the wrong time to do that. Under normal circumstances I probably would have picked up on it right away.

I admit that. Why harp on it? To Me it is a dead issue. I appreciate the outside help, and certainly this cleaning could use the outside input to help give U/us direction as W/we talk to each other. Apart from that I am satisfied with everything else, as is she, and consider the matter closed.

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Post #: 55

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 6:45:22 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Youth and lack of lifestyle experience really shouldn't be used to rationalize. There are many young people able to recognize their core desires, accept them, and commit to fulfilling them. However, maturity or immaturity is not a direct correlation of how many times a person has ridden the planet around the sun.

LMAO, never heard it put quite this way before...

quote:

The most difficult thing to do sometimes is to recognize when it's time to walk away. I'm sure you have an emotional investment with her. You spent time finding each other, getting to know each other, and eventually you've gotten to this point. It's difficult to even think about starting that all over again from scratch. But unless you are willing to accept mediocrity or compromise you could end up being the 'slave' in this relationship. My image of a dom who allows a submissive to dictate the terms and path is that of a sensation facilitator. Sure you are at the handle end of the whip, but it's the sub who controls which whip to use, the pace, the strength of impact, and the duration. I'd rather just attach a paddle to the end of a variable speed fan and give it to her as a parting gift. Then instead of a safe word she could just pull the plug, get into bed, and fall asleep to the soothing hum of her "magic rabbit".

Merc, you're crazy... Am laughing my ass off to the end of this paragraph... That is after I let go of the grasp I took when you said "the most difficult thing to recognize is when it's time to walk away." I think Lily is screaming truth and so are you... I don't know how you do it though; I find that people that find selves stuck making excuses to stay end up doing that 50years down the line, and if that's the way you choose to live, SirKenin (with all due respect), it's your business.
I think that your desire to be attached is overrriding your desire to have a harmonious relationship and love the right person for you. BDSM or not, I know I cannot get along with someone who pulls away and rejects me when we are under stress (not caused by one another).

I didn't want to say it, but since Merc and Lily have already gone there, I'm going to say that the relationship doesn't sound like you too have equal or symbiotic desires/goals, and though I used to believe love would conquer all (as you argue), I have now revised my meaning of love to accomodate open minded/kind/affectionate person who'll do whatever I say, lol (more or less). I think it's important to be honest with yourself and her about your needs and desires. JMHO, M

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 56

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 7:56:47 PM

SirKenin

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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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What I'm wondering is this, Blk. I hear plenty of talk in here about limits and boundaries. Limits about discipline, limits in S&M, limits in this, that and the other thing. I am wondering why that can not apply to this situation as well? Why does everything have to be "she desires communication in this matter, so this relationship is not for you"? That sounds crazy to Me, considering all I know about BDSM, which admittedly is no wealth of information.

Why can W/we not brainstorm in this thread for a solution? Why can My partner and I not communicate and talk through solutions? Why can W/we not, as a collective, agree that the potential is there that controlling when she cleans may be a limit? Why can it not be a limit that she does not want to be pounced on the second she walks in the door? What is unreasonable with that request? Now that I have had time to mull it over and sound it out it sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to ask. she is obedient and subservient in so many areas. W/we share many of the same interests and goals. she really wants to grow and learn. W/we are both equally attracted to each other and very much "in love".

Truthfully this does not make any sense to Me. I am left here scratching My head. It appears to contradict that which I do know of BDSM.

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Post #: 57

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 8:37:41 PM

LdyAuburn

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if she is being overwhelmed, no matter how well intentioned, then perhaps a slower approach. Certain things you dont assume authority on?
Perhaps her time for example until she is home for XX amount of time. D/s relationships take time regardless. From what you have said it appears that you require total obedience and acceptance.
Have you thought about a period of time eg 8pm to 10 pm is the time she has to obey you? To give her a taste of it?

W

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 58

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 8:59:21 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LdyAuburn

if she is being overwhelmed, no matter how well intentioned, then perhaps a slower approach. Certain things you dont assume authority on?
Perhaps her time for example until she is home for XX amount of time. D/s relationships take time regardless. From what you have said it appears that you require total obedience and acceptance.
Have you thought about a period of time eg 8pm to 10 pm is the time she has to obey you? To give her a taste of it?

W

You are right. I do require total obedience and acceptance. Maybe that is why I am having trouble getting My head around the cleaning thing. I think You bring up a great suggestion. The set time period is a great idea. I will try that and see what happens.

I have discovered that the trick in this relationship is figuring out how to get her to do what I want. Using the right approach in other words. It has taken an adjustment and lots of communication so far to understand her needs, expectations and what makes her tick (and I really love her for it) because she is different from the last one, something that is entirely reasonable. I sure have not perfected it yet by any stretch of the imagination, but talking to her and being here has certainly set Me in the right direction. The more I read, the more I learn. It is great.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 4/20/2005 9:01:01 PM >

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to LdyAuburn)

Post #: 59

RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 9:04:16 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

Lily, I missed something you said until just now. In one year I have only had two girlfriends, including this one. I am not sure where the idea came from about three girlfriends in three months...?

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 60

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