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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/17/2005 3:38:28 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
If she safewords- fine, stop everything and go about what you were doing before. She will either learn to stop safewording or you will have the most clear line of communication a Ms relationship has ever had.

I like this devious approach too, LOL. M

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/17/2005 6:45:07 PM   
MzBerlin


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Kenin-
I have only safeworded ONCE in my time as a kinkster. I have always felt that safewording is for times when I can't take anymore, I feel like I am in imminent danger of being injured or something along those lines.
Not wanting to be touched is not dangerous, and therefore (IMHO) does not warrant safeword use.
Being submissive is not always fun and not always easy. Sometimes it means that you have to do things you don't want to, or don't enjoy.
She is def. topping from the bottom, and I think that is clear. I think that maybe you should go over with her what a safeword MEANS and when it's appropriate to use one.
B

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/17/2005 7:16:17 PM   
sanita


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i have used a safeword once. it was over 5 years ago. having to use it felt like punishment, because i did not want to admit i could not handle what was being dealt.

i have seen it written that a safeword will stop everything cold... and THEN there should be a discussion about the situation that brought on the use of the safeword. this discussion should not be punishment, because that is a whole other territory, a Dom that would punish for using a safeword... but here is an idea:

SirKenin, imagine if You sat down for a serious discussion every time the safeword was used. if it is cavalier, then the tedium of that discussion would be a lesson in crying wolf. especially if it made it too late to go out to dinner or catch the show, or whatever treat may be scheduled. if it is a serious need to stop what is happening, the discussion serves its purpose, You learn where this sub feels unsteady. she may actually have a serious concern, and instead of telling You she is not ready to accept Your orders, she is knee-jerk safewording.

it goes back to communication. and as others have posted here... that is what is important.

anyway, that was my $.02.
good luck to You.


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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/17/2005 8:48:29 PM   
nella


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Again i think like i have told you before SirKenin, that the relationship to this submissive simply is to new for you to move in together. You seam to not know one another werry well, i think you both need time to deal whit both this and other issues. For over the weeks you have come whit amny of theese problems whit your submissive. problems that are common among beginners and pepole that are starting a relationship, but you are talking aboute moving in together, or at least you were a littel time ago, or have you changed submissive again? i mean no disrespect. i merly think you might be more happy if you take things more slowly. Enyoy the road, do not have such a rush to get there all at once.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/17/2005 9:49:55 PM   
Kinkypupper


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I agree the use of a"safeword" is one of LAST RESORT.
It stops EVERYTHING.
You both need to sit down and discuss "WHAT" each of you feel a safeword is

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 6:13:04 AM   
ProtagonistLily


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quote:

Again i think like i have told you before SirKenin, that the relationship to this submissive simply is to new for you to move in together. You seam to not know one another werry well, i think you both need time to deal whit both this and other issues. For over the weeks you have come whit amny of theese problems whit your submissive. problems that are common among beginners and pepole that are starting a relationship, but you are talking aboute moving in together, or at least you were a littel time ago, or have you changed submissive again? i mean no disrespect. i merly think you might be more happy if you take things more slowly. Enyoy the road, do not have such a rush to get there all at once.


Out of curiosity, nella, what are you basing this determination on? I wonder why you think it's just because she's 'new'. She's clearly been around long enough to know how to manipulate a situation.

I appreciate the 'enjoy the road' bit, but come on. This is not about hearts and flowers all the time, it's about Power Exchange. In a power exchange relationship, someone is supposed to have the control, and it's not the submissive.

In general, I get tired of the 'poor subby vs the Big Bad Dom' knee jerk reactions. I've known a lot of manipulative submissives in my time, new or not. And why is it always the Dom's fault for not being "Fill_in_the_blank enough".

L

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 7:31:20 AM   
nella


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No Lily this is not the poor submissive bad Dom, this is the fact that there are two pepole that seam to have problems becouse they have taken a relationship to quikly forward. Ofcourse i cannot know if this is the case, i can only say what i think from the information i have.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 7:32:55 AM   
ProtagonistLily


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quote:

No Lily this is not the poor submissive bad Dom, this is the fact that there are two pepole that seam to have problems becouse they have taken a relationship to quikly forward. Ofcourse i cannot know if this is the case, i can only say what i think from the information i have.


Oh thank you nella, for clearing this up.

L

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 8:52:53 AM   
MrThorns


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Kenin,

You seem to still have a few options, depending on what you want from this relationship. You can sit the girl down and have a discussion about how a safeword is designed to keep her safe from physical, psychological and/or emotional harm. It is not designed to be used to avoid doing her duties or following instruction. Maybe that is all that needs to happen.

Another option could be to help her experience what it is like to have a safeword used casually. Example...create a scene that is all about her. Every sensation is something that she finds to be pleasureable....just as she is getting into it, safeword. Walk out of the room, sit down on the couch and start doing something else. During sex...just as she's about to reach orgasm...safeword and walk out of the room. Getting ready to go out to a nice dinner together, getting dressed up...then safeword and order a pizza.

*DISCLAIMER
With the 2nd option, things could go terribly wrong. I recommend using option 1. Option 2 can be seen as being a bit immature or petty..and in many ways, it is. But as a training tool, it may also turn out to be effective. I still recommend Option 1.

Last option, as I see it, is to let her go. If you do not believe that you can reestablish control of the relationship and/or the relationship is not salvagable, then perhaps it time to call it quits.

Good luck,

~Thorns

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 12:53:16 PM   
liltxsubby


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From what I know of safewords, your sub is most definitely overusing hers. Safewords are for safety, and should only be used if there is a real danger of someone's safety. Perhaps you should sit down and sicuss with your sub exactly what the safeword is to be used for. After having that discussion, make it clear that misuse of the safeword is not acceptable.
From that point on, any time she uses her safeword, tell her you want a reason why it was used. If that reason does not clearly fall within what you have already discussed, make her go write an essay on when she should use the safeword. Sooner or later, she will figure it out.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 1:03:11 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Is this really that complicated an issue that we need essay writing and long drawn out behavioral change methods?

Sit the blasted girl down and tell her how you feel. Ask her why she uses her safeword like that, what it means to her and explain how you mean for her to use it in the future.

End of story.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 1:12:11 PM   
liltxsubby


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quote:

Sit the blasted girl down and tell her how you feel. Ask her why she uses her safeword like that, what it means to her and explain how you mean for her to use it in the future.


Maybe that will be enough. If she stops overusing her safeword after he's explained what it's for then there's no need for the rest. Sorry if I didn't make that clear originally.
However, if this is a case of topping from the bottom or testing as many people seem to think (myself incuded), simply sitting her down and telling her is not going to do it.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 1:24:57 PM   
SweetDommes


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If sitting her down and telling her doesn't work, I don't know that making her write an essay will work either ... I wouldn't be suprised if she 'safeworded' out of the essay too *rolls eyes*

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 1:30:14 PM   
SirKenin


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Ok, I talked to her about My concerns about the safe word.

As it turns out she did not know where else to turn when I told her I would not take no for an answer. she says "Why won't You just take "No"" at which time I explained to her the ambiguity of the word no in the lifestyle I live. I told her that I felt that she was attempting to top from the bottom and that would not be considered acceptable.

W/we had a long conversation and it appears that the duress of her job, the tremendous pressure of a tripled workload and coming home exhausted, the fact that W/we are moving into a new house, etc has worn her right down. I can understand this. I am exhausted Myself. It has proven to be hell to say the least. However, I discussed with her all the excellent points that had been brought up here and that the alternative to "no" or *insert safeword here* is to tell Me "Sir, I feel uncomfortable with this", "Sir, this is putting me into a position I do not feel comfortable with right now" or "Sir, can W/we sit down and talk" or the likes. I told her at that point I would stop whatever it was that I was doing and W/we can sit down and discuss what was bothering her.

I agree with the ones here that are saying that communication at that point where she feels necessary to back down is key. She normally does not do it, so there has to be good reason for it that needs to be discussed. Like I said it is because W/we are reaching our limits due to everything that has been going on for the past month.

W/we are not moving in together because of O/our BDSM ties. I think that seems to be the basics of what nella is trying to say. It is also not the same woman that I had so many problems with before. That relationship dissolved. I am moving in with her because of O/our vanilla ties and relationship first and foremost. Even if she was not My submissive-in-training and W/we did not involve O/ourselves with S&M I would still want to live with her. I would not trade that relationship for anything.

I did, as per the recommendations in this thread, discuss with her the proper use of safewords. I told her what I expect out of this relationship and how I expect her to approach Me. This sparked an excellent dialogue and I think W/we are both better off as a result. W/we have the most impressive communication I believe I have ever seen in a relationship.

I would like to thank E/everyone for T/their valuable input, and if anything else comes to mind, perhaps something I missed, please let Me know.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 1:34:24 PM   
SweetDommes


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I hope that it works for you. If it doesn't, come back and I'm sure that we will have thought of more things to tell you LOL

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/18/2005 11:40:49 PM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Ok, I talked to her about My concerns about the safe word.

As it turns out she did not know where else to turn when I told her I would not take no for an answer. she says "Why won't You just take "No"" at which time I explained to her the ambiguity of the word no in the lifestyle I live. I told her that I felt that she was attempting to top from the bottom and that would not be considered acceptable.

W/we had a long conversation and it appears that the duress of her job, the tremendous pressure of a tripled workload and coming home exhausted, the fact that W/we are moving into a new house, etc has worn her right down. I can understand this. I am exhausted Myself. It has proven to be hell to say the least. However, I discussed with her all the excellent points that had been brought up here and that the alternative to "no" or *insert safeword here* is to tell Me "Sir, I feel uncomfortable with this", "Sir, this is putting me into a position I do not feel comfortable with right now" or "Sir, can W/we sit down and talk" or the likes. I told her at that point I would stop whatever it was that I was doing and W/we can sit down and discuss what was bothering her.

I agree with the ones here that are saying that communication at that point where she feels necessary to back down is key. She normally does not do it, so there has to be good reason for it that needs to be discussed. Like I said it is because W/we are reaching our limits due to everything that has been going on for the past month.

W/we are not moving in together because of O/our BDSM ties. I think that seems to be the basics of what nella is trying to say. It is also not the same woman that I had so many problems with before. That relationship dissolved. I am moving in with her because of O/our vanilla ties and relationship first and foremost. Even if she was not My submissive-in-training and W/we did not involve O/ourselves with S&M I would still want to live with her. I would not trade that relationship for anything.

I did, as per the recommendations in this thread, discuss with her the proper use of safewords. I told her what I expect out of this relationship and how I expect her to approach Me. This sparked an excellent dialogue and I think W/we are both better off as a result. W/we have the most impressive communication I believe I have ever seen in a relationship.

I would like to thank E/everyone for T/their valuable input, and if anything else comes to mind, perhaps something I missed, please let Me know.


The irony of this whole mess is that safewords were designed in order to clarify communication while in scene and improve safety.

In this relationship, safewords were a roadblock to communication and resulted in a lot of misunderstanding, hidden feelings and confusion.

Personally, the only time I use safewords are when in a situation that my partner might be saying "No, STOP!" when he doesn't mean it. Otherwise, there is no substitute for good old fashioned, "This is how I feel," when two people aren't connecting.

And when things are breaking down the point that your partner does not want to be hugged or touched, that's a sign of discomfort, lack of trust, ickiness, feeling boxed in, feeling trapped. Bad signs. Again, though, instead of reading this as a sign of some emotional disconnect, it was boiled down to one word. Safeword.

Imagine if a normal relationship had to replace all communication of conflict/disagreement with one word, and one word only. You think it would work?

BDSM relationships are no different. If anything, because of the intense emotions and trust issues and passion involved, clear communication is critical.

Subs often don't know what the hell they are feeling; if the only way out of that lost place is to safeword and crawl into a corner, that's a dangerous options. The dominant needs to be there to help the sub understand, decipher, communicate these feelings.

Akasha

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/19/2005 7:30:55 AM   
ProtagonistLily


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quote:

Ok, I talked to her about My concerns about the safe word.

As it turns out she did not know where else to turn when I told her I would not take no for an answer. she says "Why won't You just take "No"" at which time I explained to her the ambiguity of the word no in the lifestyle I live. I told her that I felt that she was attempting to top from the bottom and that would not be considered acceptable.


As opposed to the lifestyle other people live? If you ask someone a question, and "No" isn't an option, it makes me wonder why you bother to ask a question at all. I'm not clear on how ambiguous 'No' is, or why you see it that way. Where I come from, "No means No"; perhaps your unwillingness to accept the negative answer is what's mired in ambiguity here.

quote:

W/we had a long conversation and it appears that the duress of her job, the tremendous pressure of a tripled workload and coming home exhausted, the fact that W/we are moving into a new house, etc has worn her right down. I can understand this. I am exhausted Myself. It has proven to be hell to say the least. However, I discussed with her all the excellent points that had been brought up here and that the alternative to "no" or *insert safeword here* is to tell Me "Sir, I feel uncomfortable with this", "Sir, this is putting me into a position I do not feel comfortable with right now" or "Sir, can W/we sit down and talk" or the likes. I told her at that point I would stop whatever it was that I was doing and W/we can sit down and discuss what was bothering her.


In your previous post you said you were training this girl, and that she was not the girl you previously had problems with. Now you say you are moving into a new house with her. This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that your need to have a submissive is superceding your desire to find the 'right' girl. You might want to think about that.

quote:

I agree with the ones here that are saying that communication at that point where she feels necessary to back down is key. She normally does not do it, so there has to be good reason for it that needs to be discussed. Like I said it is because W/we are reaching our limits due to everything that has been going on for the past month.


Again, if she is constantly saying no to you, in what ever manner that is, whether it's the ambiguous no or the trained no phrase, if she feels the need to use it, maybe, just maybe, you might want to look at yourself and examine why she is constantly balking you. It's just a thought.

quote:

W/we are not moving in together because of O/our BDSM ties. I think that seems to be the basics of what nella is trying to say. It is also not the same woman that I had so many problems with before. That relationship dissolved. I am moving in with her because of O/our vanilla ties and relationship first and foremost. Even if she was not My submissive-in-training and W/we did not involve O/ourselves with S&M I would still want to live with her. I would not trade that relationship for anything.


Again, seems a little quick to me and you seem rather defensive about it. You might want to take a look at that.

quote:

I did, as per the recommendations in this thread, discuss with her the proper use of safewords. I told her what I expect out of this relationship and how I expect her to approach Me. This sparked an excellent dialogue and I think W/we are both better off as a result. W/we have the most impressive communication I believe I have ever seen in a relationship.


Me, me, me, me, me. So many 'new Doms' tend to forget the idea that this is a power exchange and focus on what they want soley. Well, that's a nice fantasy, but if you aren't attending to her needs and wants in some proportion, it's only a matter of time that the relationship will dissolve. Funny, your core issues is about the way she communicates with you and now you say you have the most impressive communication you've ever seen in a relationship. Could you please clarify that?

Lily

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/19/2005 8:25:06 PM   
SirKenin


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W/we have had a really long talk about it and it appears that W/we will be talking about it again. There is much to discuss. All I can say is that I will keep you posted and would appreciate any further thoughts.

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/19/2005 11:21:14 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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I wish you lots of luck..
It sounds like you love her weather or not BDSM is involved, so as long as she feels the same way for you, things should work out. M

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RE: Overuse of a safeword? - 4/20/2005 7:09:37 AM   
SirKenin


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Oh I do. I love her to pieces for her and vice versa. BDSM or no BDSM. We took a four hour drive last night and during the drive W/we outlined O/our feelings and expectations to each other. she explained to Me where her concerns lay and I am not exactly sure how to deal with them. she mentioned being told to do cleaning when she got home from work, how she needed to be able to do it on her own time, and control over her money. So, to Me that is all part of establishing limits and boundaries. I am just not sure how to approach it in a manner that is suitable for both parties. Control over O/our contribution percentage is fine. I do not think I need any control over the money that is left over for her personally. That does not sit right with Me for some reason.

As far as managing money goes, it does not seem like she is as good at it as I thought. I might have to do that.

She submits in so many things. There just seems to be an area or two where there is still issues that W/we need to sort out and figure out how W/we are going to address them. To figure out whether she is going to surrender control in those areas or not. Does that sound right?

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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