RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/11/2007 9:23:48 PM)
Would a world of complete democracy (read as mob rule) be that much better? Orion

MzMia -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/11/2007 9:26:05 PM)
Just giggling here, I am going to WalMart tomorrow.

Sinergy -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/11/2007 9:38:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Would a world of complete democracy (read as mob rule) be that much better? Orion My understanding is that the concept of democracy includes all citizens involved in the decision making process. My understanding of anarchy is "mob rule" is involved in the decision making process. So yes to the first and (no) to the second. Sinergy

seeksfemslave -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 12:19:20 AM)
The theoretical concept of Democracy is impossible to put into practice. Nothing at all would be done if the approval of all citizens was required. Choices based on majority approval temporarily and in some cases permanently disenfranchise the minority. Dont argue. OK ?. Sinergy: If the oppostion to the location of the MacDonalds is as widespread as you say, surely it will close down soon becauses no one will shop there. NO ? If not ..why not ?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 5:56:42 AM)
A direct democracy includes every citizen in every major decision making process. If the majority feel a law that allows them to lynch the person they think is a witch, then it is done. Try looking into a republic that uses representative democracy, and you will likely find a better system. It is when the systems become imbalanced with power that you have problems, or when the politicians believe they are the power. Orion

JohnSteed1967 -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 6:05:17 AM)
Walmart is an EVIL Corporation. I don't think it started that way. I think Sam Walton was a business man plain and simple, and yes used every tatic he could to get an advantage over the other guy. Even if some of those tatics we illegal, however I think that all in all he tried to run a honest business. Many of the policies that people complain about were rejected by Walton off the bat because he thought that they were bad or that they would hurt the workers. However, The second walton died and the walton family took over (along with their cronies) those policies were put into place. I think that the walton family like the families of Elvis, John Lennon, James Brown, Anna Nichole Smith, and the list goes on got dollar signs for eyes and decided hey we have a chance to make even more money if we fuck the workers over and run this the way same refused too.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 6:37:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 well MzMia, it appears that you shop in my neck of the woods! we live in Bowie, and i can tell you, there are a great deal of people who are extremely ticked off that Wal-Mart decided to break ground here. My sister lives in a quaint little hamlet up in Sonoma County, California. Deep in the heart of wine country. McDonalds bought property and applied for business permits. Word got out. A vote of the citizens of that city had a special election and voted against providing business permits for a McDonalds. The permit applications were denied. McDonald's corporation sued the city. Brought in teams of lawyers. Researched case history, and were able to get the judge to rule that they were unfairly discriminated against by the citizens of the town. Now a person can buy a big Mac at a garish monstrosity nestled sweetly among the quiet streets and grape orchards and historic buildings. I feel so lucky to live in a world where multinational corporations can inflict their steel bootheels on the backs of the people their ads insist they are serving. Providing them everything the corporation insists the people need, at a price, and taking them to court if needed. Sinergy Sinergy, that is precisely what happened with the Wal-Mart in VA where i used to work. for 5 years the local citizens of that community fought to keep Wal-Mart out, not even backing down when Wal-Mart took them to court, however it's a huge company with unlimited resources, against an olde town southern hamlet. it was no competition. Wal-Mart got in, against the wishes of nearly 100% of the local residents, with the only caveat being that they had to build in a certain part of the town. Merc mentioned communities coming together and legally fighting or boycotting Wal-Mart if they don't want them in their town. well, people DO fight, people DO boycott, but it's a woefully unfair fight. Wal-Mart doesn't care if all the residents of the town they plop themselves down in refuse to shop there...they will get plenty of customers from surrounding areas, people who are attracted to the convenience and "low low prices," and don't understand or care about the damage done to the local community. as despicable a company as it is, i wouldn't have nearly as much of an issue with Wal-Mart if they simply went where they were wanted or needed (like sambamanslilgirl's community), and stayed out of where they are not. it seems that american big business will not be satisfied until every square inch of this country is one neverending landscape of Mcdonald's, Wal-Marts and parking lots.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 7:18:07 AM)
quote: Merc mentioned communities coming together and legally fighting or boycotting Wal-Mart if they don't want them in their town. well, people DO fight, people DO boycott, but it's a woefully unfair fight. Wal-Mart doesn't care if all the residents of the town they plop themselves down in refuse to shop there...they will get plenty of customers from surrounding areas, people who are attracted to the convenience and "low low prices," and don't understand or care about the damage done to the local community There is an easy way to correct the problem; install a loser pays court system. The 'ambulance chancing' lawyers who represent the majority of our elected politicians, led by presidental candidate Senator Edwards, would never allow that to happen, but it is a cause I contribute to regularly. It would eliminate the 'law suit lottery', and end they type of extortion that WalMart was subject to in 2003, and it would make it easier to find a lawyer to represent locals trying to keep out the corporate invaders.

samboct -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 7:21:56 AM)
I think Julia's point is well taken- if you don't like Walmart's practices (I don't) don't shop there. Several other posters have pointed out that their "low prices" are mythical and from my limited experience, that's true. Every time I've gone into a Walmart- I find it to be a dispiriting place- trash in the aisles, dirty, and with only zombies working there and their prices are often higher than other stores. I suspect the idea of low prices is their advertising, which is certainly pervasive. I'm always a bit suspicious of "facts" that everybody knows which are heavily advertised. Many of the issues surrounding Walmart aren't new and date back to the turn of the 20th century. Teddy Roosevelt, oft cited darling of the right- was known as the Trust Buster, for his legislative attack on Standard Oil- forcing the breakup of that firm and other near monopolies. Capitalism tilts towards whoever has the most money- want to build a really big fortune? Well, it's easier if you start with a few million in the bank. The game of Monopoly is a wonderful microcosm of capitalism in action. Large amounts of capital often crush innovation and Walmart is no exception. Has anyone cited Thomas Friedman's book- The World is Flat where he covers this issue on Walmart? (I don't agree with a number of Friedman's premises, but he's done his homework.) Manufacturing in China is a complex issue. It's based on an idiotic idea of American businesses- that research and development can be separated from manufacturing. Developing new products requires the input of the people actually doing the manufacturing, because there are problems that crop up that should be solved. Of course, if your shoe design team is in the US and your mfg in China, and the glue in China is reacting with the materials in the other parts of the shoe and dissolving them- but you can't talk the designers in the US- what do you do? Blaming China is silly- the problem is what's looking back at us from the mirror every morning. The US is running on a quarterly basis (I have a sneaking suspicion that this came from our tax system) which doesn't reward long term planning. Manufacturing US designed goods in China is stupid- it's like Ford going to GM and saying- hey, we have a new car design, but since you have a new automated plant (China tends to use poorly paid humans instead of robots- hence lower quality and economic slave prices so the analogy is a bit strained) we'll let you build it for us since it'll be cheaper- we'll just sell it. OK? Does this make sense to anyone? Yet that's what's happening when mfg moves to China- where there is no effective intellectual property. Show a Chinese company how to mfg something- you've just created your own worst nightmare- a competitor who will steal your work with no real means of stopping them. (Much as I hate to admit it, the legal system in our country has not all been negative.) And to the point of Sambam'slilgirl- that in a blighted neighborhood, Walmart can look like salvation. Well, my response is if you want to sup with the devil, you'd better use a long spoon. Walmart doesn't help local businesses, it crushes them too. Hence, any blighted area is going to stay blighted even with a Walmart. I suspect the only place they've ever made things look more prosperous in in their home turf of Bentonville Arkansas. However, this doesn't solve the problem of what to do with a blighted neighborhood. Often what you describe is a result of banking practices- the large conglomerate banks no longer respond to individual localities specific needs. Businesses need capital to get started, and local banks used to be in the business of making local loans-especially with some gov't guarantees. Now they just hand out high interest rate credit cards. While this may be more egalitarian, it's killed the establishment of local businesses- which are often more innovative and able to respond to their customers needs better than large franchises. We've seen a political trend that's started with Reagan and is having lots of terrible consequences. While the idea that a smaller gov't that doesn't interfere with the marketplace can sound utopian in the abstract, in practical terms, unfettered capitalism just leads to monopolies- which stifle innovation. Apparently we as citizens are deficient in our history- and as always, we're being given another chance to learn the lessons that Teddy Roosevelt dealt with a century ago. Sam

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 8:04:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct And to the point of Sambam'slilgirl- that in a blighted neighborhood, Walmart can look like salvation. Well, my response is if you want to sup with the devil, you'd better use a long spoon. Walmart doesn't help local businesses, it crushes them too. Hence, any blighted area is going to stay blighted even with a Walmart. I suspect the only place they've ever made things look more prosperous in in their home turf of Bentonville Arkansas. However, this doesn't solve the problem of what to do with a blighted neighborhood. Often what you describe is a result of banking practices- the large conglomerate banks no longer respond to individual localities specific needs. Businesses need capital to get started, and local banks used to be in the business of making local loans-especially with some gov't guarantees. Now they just hand out high interest rate credit cards. While this may be more egalitarian, it's killed the establishment of local businesses- which are often more innovative and able to respond to their customers needs better than large franchises. and if you have read my responses carefully, we don't have many local businesses setting up shop here in Englewood ...basically they are next to nil, zero, zippo, 0 unless you count the many dollar stores that seem to pop up every 2 to 3 blocks from each other. i don't see Wal-Mart as the boogieman like the rest of you portray them to be. i doubt any one of you would like to take a guided tour of my neighborhood to fully grasp that businesses like Wal-Mart, Target, etc are needed here. so i'm not afraid to be wined and dined with the devil - i'm looking at community growth and economic development which i suppose shouldn't be given to communities like me according to you. we're merely seeking the same opportunities the other affluent neighborhoods in Chicago are getting. to respond to your point about the banking practices - not too many banking conglomerates here in my hood - but i can tell you where everyone banks. it's called the Currency Exchange. we have plenty of those (and i can tell you where they are without goggling too) than no-name banks ...the only way you would find a large banking name is if you travel outside Englewood. WaMu is about the only big name bank to set a few branches here.

samboct -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 11:47:17 AM)
sambamanslilgirl (sorry about mangling your name) Yes, I read your post-but you're missing my point. Having a Walmart isn't going to help anything. Let's put some more facts on the table and see if that helps- 1) There's an 80/20 rule of large corporations in a state- 80% of people work in small businesses while 20% of people work in the large corporation. This is why companies such as car mfgs, aircraft mfgs, computer mfgs and even naval bases are so sought after- because they often use local suppliers, pay their people well, which then allows smaller businesses to spring up feeding their demand for goods and services. 2) Walmart doesn't operate that way. Walmart doesn't pay their people enough to frequent other businesses and move upscale- they can't even afford to shop at Walmart. Worse yet- Walmart doesn't use local businesses as suppliers- they truck everything in since they buy in large volume from large suppliers. So how are small businesses going to spring up? 3) It's the old story of "give a man a fish- you've fed him a day. Teach him to fish- he'll feed himself for life." If you've got no businesses springing up, now- why will it be any different with Walmart in the picture? In other words- if you don't have people in the community that have the desire to open up their own busineeses- you're screwed- all you can do is live on handouts. And Walmart is a lousy handout. Hence my comment about banks. 4) If you're in a region that can't open businesses- then I'll lay very long odds the problem is political. Either resources aren't being allocated fairly on some level (below federal) or there's so much corruption that the people who would start a business have called it quits. Sam

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 12:56:16 PM)
and again you're not seeing it from my pov. you don't live in my neighborhood so you personally wouldn't understand the needs of THIS BLACK neighborhood. get my drift now? THIS neighborhood doesn't have ANY small businesses in the area ...no mom-n-pop stands for Wal-Mart to compete or draw supplies to stock their shelves. now unless they go into the hair/nail salon, laundry mat, or fish-chicken-rib shack business, then there would be plenty of competition for Wal-Mart to grab the BLACK consumers of THIS neighborhood (and surrounding areas) to shop in their store. instead most BLACK people shop where name-brand stores (including Wal-Mart and Target) in the affluent (white/hispanic) neighborhoods and/or suburbs. why? because there isn't one close to home for them to spend their $$$. if there WERE more small businesses in my neighborhood then i would be against having a Wal-Mart but we DO NOT - are getting the hint now? you would be amazed how people on SSI and public aid can afford $200 Jordans and JLo-crap ...dressing their kids in $100 jeans! and as far pay wise - receiving $9 to $10.50/hr is BETTER than waiting for that public aid and/or SSI monthly check. i would rather have something part-time and/or full-time (if i didn't have a job) with Wal-Mart than resorting to what i've seen others do - selling their food stamps, baby's milk and diapers or hustle in the streets selling gawd knows what 5 for $10 on the CTA. see you can quote facts, figures and bitch about how evil Wal-Mart is and still would NEVER understand the community dispair we face in Englewood. and since you're probably not from Chicago, then you don't understand NOT everything here is political.

deadbluebird -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 1:22:18 PM)
Where i live a super walmart was built and Then several other buisnesses started to open up. Another little plaza was even built and another is being built now. I am not 100% pro walmart. I dont think any store should be able to sell Everything and i think stores should only be aloud to be so big. But i can't deny that it is a good thing for some citys. Granted it isnt going to look nice in the cute little citys where the rich retire, but here, where many are living below the poverty line it provides jobs that would not have been provided. And it brings shoppers to the city which wouldnt have came otherwise.

MzMia -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 1:49:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sambamanslilgirl and again you're not seeing it from my pov. you don't live in my neighborhood so you personally wouldn't understand the needs of THIS BLACK neighborhood. get my drift now? THIS neighborhood doesn't have ANY small businesses in the area ...no mom-n-pop stands for Wal-Mart to compete or draw supplies to stock their shelves. now unless they go into the hair/nail salon, laundry mat, or fish-chicken-rib shack business, then there would be plenty of competition for Wal-Mart to grab the BLACK consumers of THIS neighborhood (and surrounding areas) to shop in their store. instead most BLACK people shop where name-brand stores (including Wal-Mart and Target) in the affluent (white/hispanic) neighborhoods and/or suburbs. why? because there isn't one close to home for them to spend their $$$. if there WERE more small businesses in my neighborhood then i would be against having a Wal-Mart but we DO NOT - are getting the hint now? you would be amazed how people on SSI and public aid can afford $200 Jordans and JLo-crap ...dressing their kids in $100 jeans! and as far pay wise - receiving $9 to $10.50/hr is BETTER than waiting for that public aid and/or SSI monthly check. i would rather have something part-time and/or full-time (if i didn't have a job) with Wal-Mart than resorting to what i've seen others do - selling their food stamps, baby's milk and diapers or hustle in the streets selling gawd knows what 5 for $10 on the CTA. see you can quote facts, figures and bitch about how evil Wal-Mart is and still would NEVER understand the community dispair we face in Englewood. and since you're probably not from Chicago, then you don't understand NOT everything here is political. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] I just came back from WalMart, I had the best time! I spoke to an employee for 30 minutes, he told me that many people were able to advance in his store, he also stated which I agree with, IF you don't want to work or shop there, don't! I agree, I had a great time, does anyone want to know what I bought?[:D] Wal-Mart Facts - Get the facts and latest news about Wal-Mart from Wal-Mart.[;)] Working Families for Wal-Mart I am so impressed by what I have read, I hope to buy stock in WalMart AND try to shop there more often!!

UtopianRanger -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 5:41:00 PM)
quote: I agree, I had a great time, does anyone want to know what I bought? I'v been in and out since 7:00 am this morning waiting for you to come back from wal-mart!! What a treat it would be for you to show and tell us all about the cheap stuff and garbage you purchased there today. [;)] - R

MzMia -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 6:03:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger quote: I agree, I had a great time, does anyone want to know what I bought? I'v been in and out since 7:00 am this morning waiting for you to come back from wal-mart!! What a treat it would be for you to show and tell us all about the cheap stuff and garbage you purchased there today. [;)] - R Goodness, I didn't think anyone would ask! I spent $102 and I got about 15 bags of cheap stuff and garbage! [:D] Since you asked here is PART of it: I bought 2 boxes of brand name heavy duty trash bags, 3 bottles of detergent, Liquid soap, Body wash, paper towels, dishwasher detergent, toothpaste, light bulbs, sandwich bags, air fresheners, lotion, baby powder, various other toiletry items {which is mainly what I buy there} snack foods, socks, slippers, boxes of south beach snack bars, batteries, birthday cards and a whole bunch of other things. My cart was almost filled to the top, I am munching on the popcorn I bought there now. [:D] I think I saved about $30, I love WalMart I can't wait to go back there!

Griswold -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 6:07:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger quote: I agree, I had a great time, does anyone want to know what I bought? I'v been in and out since 7:00 am this morning waiting for you to come back from wal-mart!! What a treat it would be for you to show and tell us all about the cheap stuff and garbage you purchased there today. [;)] - R Goodness, I didn't think anyone would ask! I spent $102 and I got about 15 bags of cheap stuff and garbage! [:D] Since you asked here is PART of it: I bought 2 boxes of brand name heavy duty trash bags, 3 bottles of detergent, Liquid soap, Body wash, paper towels, dishwasher detergent, toothpaste, light bulbs, sandwich bags, air fresheners, lotion, baby powder, various other toiletry items {which is mainly what I buy there} snack foods, socks, slippers, boxes of south beach snack bars, batteries, birthday cards and a whole bunch of other things. My cart was almost filled to the top, I am munching on the popcorn I bought there now. [:D] I think I saved about $30, I love WalMart I can't wait to go back there! God loves you. I love you. Keep shopping at WalMart (I own stock).

TheHeretic -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 6:17:38 PM)
It's kind of interesting that people who don't shop at Wal-Mart are such experts on the quality of their merchandise. I've learned it's not the best place to buy a toilet paper spindle, but the name brand TP itself is cheaper, along with the toothpaste and soap. My biggest expenditures are on work clothes. I'm hard on those and the Wal-Mart brand actually holds up better than more expensive stuff from more politically correct outlets.

MzMia -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 6:23:16 PM)
The majority of the items I buy there are toiletry and household items. Why pay more for stuff like toothpaste and toilet paper? I tell you what Rich, I rarely run out of anything. I mainly also buy name brand stuff also.

Sinergy -> RE: Walmart - High Cost of Low Prices (4/12/2007 8:15:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The theoretical concept of Democracy is impossible to put into practice. Nothing at all would be done if the approval of all citizens was required. Choices based on majority approval temporarily and in some cases permanently disenfranchise the minority. Dont argue. OK ?. Sinergy: If the oppostion to the location of the MacDonalds is as widespread as you say, surely it will close down soon becauses no one will shop there. NO ? If not ..why not ? You missed the point, seeks. The citizens of a city voted to deny McDonalds a business permit. McDonalds filed a lawsuit and forced the city to issue them one. It is a classic example of a corporate hegemony putting their iron bootheels on US citizens. Sinergy p.s. Say "Ronald McDonald uber alles" all you want, but I think the rights of the people are more important than the rights of the Corporatocracy.

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