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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 7:47:17 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		I don't think this can be categorized under "interfering with raising the kid"- the kid is 20.  Raising is pretty much done. 

However, I'd wonder if Susan has done other things in the past which might show a pattern of overextension of her duties as 'godmother.'

She should make sure the niece knows the risks, educates herself, and wants it for the 'right reasons' and encourage the niece to go to her mother and tell her all of those things as well.

But I don't see anything inherently wrong with offering and following up on the offer.

_____________________________

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 7:55:01 AM   
LadyIce


Posts: 406
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		I think it was a very generous offer.  As it was mentioned before, I would offer to pay for a visit
to a top dermatologist and see what options are out there.  This maybe a condition that can be taken
care of without surgery.  I go to a well known dermatologist, and you would be surprised what they
can do without surgery these days, its simply amazing.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:01:37 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		KatyLied: That is somethinng I'd consider, but Jennifer is pretty mature for her age (but I can see your point, and it's not a bad solution). I wish now I'd stopped myself and brought it up w/my sister first, too. But Jenny is so excited about this now that I brought it up - and she is at prime-time dating age for dating. And she does occasioanlly date, but it's more like she mostly just has a lot of male friends,(and they are nice guys, but more like "pals") and she thinks that may be partly due to her skin condition. It just make sme feel so sad for her, because she is such a wonderful girl.

LA: Not really, although I can understand why someone would wonder, especially since I don't have kids of my own. If anything, I've maybe ignored her more than I should have through the years, considering I am her Godmother - except on her birthdays and holidays, and even then I never, ever went overboard, or spent a huge sum on her gift, or any more than I did on anyone else in my family. I really may be think my sister is under lots of stress, but I wish she'd consider her daughter vs. her own feelings here.

Maybe in a week or two, she'll get over it. I am not trying to make up for any "being an absentee Godmother" or anything. I see this as a genuine problem for Jennifer I can do something about, and that my sister doesn't seem to want to do much about. Which I do find surprising, especially since my parents have done a hell of a lot for her. And I know how much it can hurt to experience, too.  

Sorry if it sounds to anyone like I am whining. The whole thing just really irks me. Thanks for listening. Excellent advice, everyone, and I was confused, and do appreciate it a lot.

-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 8:34:07 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:04:25 AM   
ANonnyMoose


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/10/2007
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The girl who got her face shot off doesn't need to have surgery, because aren't we trying to keep people from staring at looks? I mean, if she's got half a face, she shouldn't be hung up about getting it fixed because we'll just ingrain her with the thought that looks matter. 

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:07:32 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Where I come from, age 20 is most definately adult except for legal drinking age. A 20 yo can choose to have any surgical procedure she/he wishes, including an abortion, without the consent of a parent. While I may not agree with offering a, cosmetic only/vanity, medical procedure it is still legal. Moral? I guess that depends on your point of view. To what limit......if the girl is too fat do you offer her liposuction? If her nose is larger than average do you take it upon yourself to offer rhinoplasty?

I think I would have a different point of view if the girl had approached you with the problem asking for assistance with the solution. For an older woman that she looks up to, offer an unnecessary cosmetic procedure is like telling her she is somehow not good enough as she is and needs to be fixed. As I said, IF she had come to you with the problem asking for help with a solution....I would feel differently.

To come up with this answer I had to think about the situation from a personal point of view and change the specifics a bit.

I have two sisters, also an adult daughter. My daughter has struggled with her weight for much of her life. If one of my sisters went to her and out of the blue offered her bariatric surgery I would be livid and my daughter is 26 not 20.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 4/9/2007 8:08:08 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:10:59 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		ANonnyMoose: Well yes, someone with their face half shot off, or otherwise tragically gone somehow - of course she (or he) needs the surgery. But - if the insinuation is therefore going to be that someone with "only" ice-pick, or even superficial, acne scars therefore somehow doesn't "deserve" surgery, because it's "less essential", then I say lets follow that highly subjective line of thinking, and see where it goes. 

I say we all spend a lot less at the grocery store. After all, in some completley agrarian societies, "other people" get by eating, and spending, a whole lot less, than many in the U.S. seem to do.

It might look "obvious" that someone with half of their face shot off deserves surgery "more" than someone who hasn't had that happen. And it may be true. But actually, it's all a matter of opinion, IMO, bottom  line. It doesn't mean, IMO, that soemone who hasn't ahd that tragedy occur should necessarily be considered a "lesser" candidate for it, especially,possibly if the e xpesne is covered, maybe.
(depending on one's "criteria" for the decision, of course).

LaT: I'd never, ever be insensitive enough to bring something like this up to Jenny, had I not already been sure she felt self-consious enough about it to be fairly certain she'd want the surgery, and welcome the help. Again, these are deep, ice-pcik acne scars, not little dots that are going to disappear in a few weeks (maybe I didn't make that very clear). They really bother her. Nodody convinced" hwr they were ugly. She sees it in the nirror every day, and she's shed more than a few tears over her condition.

I do know a gal who had rhinoplasty in igh school, and she had a huge nose. I am not sure it was "necessary", but I do know she felt much more attractive after she had her nose "done".

I am not sure where people need to draw a line. I know there arepeoplewho get addicted to palstci surgery, and have body dysmorphic disorder - and spend half their time looking for "flaws" in their appearance. I feel sorry for these folks. But - there are some things people genuinely need help with cosmetically, and I think that is really what plastic surgeons are best used for. If it is not my money they are spending, I say they can spend it on whatever they want done to themsleves, if it's legal, weird as it might be to me, I guess. 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 8:24:07 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:12:27 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
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From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Yes, 20 is certainly adult.  With a few exceptions.  For example, I have a 20 year old in college full-time.  I continue to help him with various expenses, including medical bills.  He is still a dependent, not fully on his own.  I woudn't refuse him this sort of thing, but I would want to be part of the decision-marking process.  And I would be irked if it was done without my knowledge or consent.  I would want to make sure he was making an informed decision about the procedure and possible risks.

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:19:29 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
Yes, 20 is certainly adult.  With a few exceptions.  For example, I have a 20 year old in college full-time.  I continue to help him with various expenses, including medical bills.  He is still a dependent, not fully on his own.  I woudn't refuse him this sort of thing, but I would want to be part of the decision-marking process.  And I would be irked if it was done without my knowledge or consent.  I would want to make sure he was making an informed decision about the procedure and possible risks.

I understand your perspective only in that I went through it with my mother- we had some horrendous fights over some choices I made for myself that she didn't want me to make.

They were still mine to make- and no I wasn't doing things which would interfere with her life or the rules she wanted in her house or anything.

And I do think it's best for the girl to talk to the mom directly with her honest feelings.  One option is Susan could give the girl the money and let her decide how to best apply it.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:23:03 AM   
ANonnyMoose


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Joined: 2/10/2007
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		What a lot of people don't understand (especially the older generation) that femininity is not a part of nurture, but nature. Even if a girl is raised without all the girly things, she wills till exhibit feminine wants and needs.

Letting a girl feel feminine and pretty is not indoctrinating her to believe that women are known only for their looks. That's a biased and completely irrational statement. Some women want to feel pretty for the sake of being pretty.

By saying that she doesn't deserve this treatment or saying that she's less of a woman because she wants this treatment is false. If she wants it and knows it will make her feel more like a woman (or the person she wants to be) who are any of us to say that she's wrong?

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:28:57 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		ANonnyMoose: I thought so, too.

KatyLied: I will ask my sister what she wants to do here, and mayb e have Jnenifer there with me (or maybe Jenny can talk tol hner before I do. This just makes me so mad. I can see where LA is coming from - if my sister refuses to help (and it looks like she might refuse. She hasn't done much about it so far, and it's not like she is unaware its a problem for my niece, or that she can't afford to help.

My sister knows how Jennifer feels about this - she is her mother and she's seen her grow up with this problem. If she is going to completley refuse to get involved, or help Jennifer, I may just do that - give her the money, and loet her do whatever she thinks she needs to do to fix the problem, or go with her (because I've been around this block as far a surgery for this kind of thing, and she might appreciate someone whose had this experience with her if she has it, too). I think it must be the stress she is under, talking (I can only hope).

LadyIce: Thanks for the comment. I agree.

Anyway, thanks for the ear, and good advice, people. 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 8:34:48 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:34:52 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Yes, 20 is certainly adult.  With a few exceptions.  For example, I have a 20 year old in college full-time.  I continue to help him with various expenses, including medical bills.  He is still a dependent, not fully on his own.  I woudn't refuse him this sort of thing, but I would want to be part of the decision-marking process.  And I would be irked if it was done without my knowledge or consent.  I would want to make sure he was making an informed decision about the procedure and possible risks.


Now see I can see Mom wanting to be part of the process of making sure the kid had all the right information....but at 20 I was living on my own, paying my own rent, holding down my own job with my own health insurance, and completely taking care of myself.  So I see someone talking about being 20 and I quirk my head at a Mom thinking she still needs to raise that person.  My perspective is different, I guess, as I was far removed from being dependent on my parents by then.

I envy those who are still taken care of!! 

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:37:31 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		I'd be inclined to agree more, if my sister would show more concern I guess. She is her mother. But it ticks me off to watch her do this, because I know how much it can hurt (but she is maybe pre-occupied right at the moment, w/her husband). But then again- my niece didn't develop this problem yesterday - she's had it for a good 2-3 years now, as far as the deep scars go. I mean Christ, where is her empathy? - it's not like she's been deprived herself (if anything its been more like the opposite).

Sorry to whine. I'll shut up now, Thanks for listening. I will take heed of all the good advice  on offer.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 8:42:18 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:40:29 AM   
ANonnyMoose


Posts: 16
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From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		ownedgirlie: Right now it's very hard for a 20 year old to be independent. College expenses are rising every year for no reason, wages continue to be low, and college kids just can't cope with all the bills. Most of my college friends are paying for their apartment with loans. And without that coveted degree, it's very hard to find a well paying job when you're going to school and can only work part time.

Living at home isn't as much of a choice as it is a necessity. So when someone offers to help out with something like this, and the person still lives with parents, it's hard to really find that balance of being independent mentally, but still tied down with all material expenses that you can't avoid.

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:41:05 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
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Status: offline 		Susan, you're warping this around here.  Your sister says she's upset that you went on your own to do this and are teaching her daughter that she should be more concerned about her looks.

Now you're trying to claim your sister doesn't care enough.  If that is the attitude you're giving your sister- I can see why she'd be pissed at you and rightfully so.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:42:57 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		1) Perhaps your sister's financial situation is not as rosy as she lets on.

2) Perhaps she felt it was something that she as her mother should address with her daughter, but she cannot afford it.

3) Perhaps she felt edged out by you in her daughter's life

4) Perhaps your neice and your sister are not getting along.

There are so many different variables that it boggles really Susan. Most of the time I would say in situations that it does not matter, and that your sister needs to "get over it in her own time", but you see, I am in the position of your sister. I made my sister my son's godmother, she is economically better off than me. She and her hubby spoiled my son rotten, and she often did not consult me. I never made a deal out of it... but I might if they offered him surgery.

Now your neice is an adult, and you promised her the surgery, and I would follow through on that promise no matter what... but I would also write a letter apologizing to your sister about her hurt feelings, even though she may not even know why this is bothering her so deeply (things that get to us we are not often aware of the real reason as to why). Yes, I think you should have brought it up to her instead of your neice in the first place... not because you "owe" it to her, but because you love her, she is your sister. Blood is thicker than water. Bad feelings between family are so unnecessary. I do not think you are "wrong" Susan, I just think that the relationship with a sibling is more important than being "right". I think you are a very generous kind aunt... like my sister is.



_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:45:20 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Well I didn't say that until she figuratively spit in my face, simply for trying to help her own daughter, who has cried her eyeballs out many an evening over this condition. I can't beleive she's ignored that, frankly - it is pretty easy to fix.  

I sholuld not have "lost it" at her, it never helps, really, no matter what the other person is doing, and she is under some considerable stress right now. But it strikes me as pretty damned oblivious.

It's not like she has to contirbute one red cent to help fix the problem - and yet she is still objecting. It's hard to take, olr answer. But I think she may be really stressed out. Maybe I will talk to Jennifer about that, and telll her we'll approach her mom a bout it in a week or so (but if she says no, Iam giving her the money and-or going with her, to see the doctor).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2007 8:49:41 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:48:02 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ANonnyMoose

ownedgirlie: Right now it's very hard for a 20 year old to be independent. College expenses are rising every year for no reason, wages continue to be low, and college kids just can't cope with all the bills. Most of my college friends are paying for their apartment with loans. And without that coveted degree, it's very hard to find a well paying job when you're going to school and can only work part time.

Living at home isn't as much of a choice as it is a necessity. So when someone offers to help out with something like this, and the person still lives with parents, it's hard to really find that balance of being independent mentally, but still tied down with all material expenses that you can't avoid.



I understand the difficulty of living independently, as I have two nephews in their early-mid 20s and I watch them figure it out.  It was hard for me, too.  I consistently worked two jobs to do it; sometimes three.  It was a huge struggle and I wished I had better options.  I think parents who are willing and able to support their kids through college are doing a great deed.  I also understand them wanting the kid's focus to be on school, since that's the whole point of being supported at 20.

I wonder, re: the OP situation, is there an immediate need for this?  I don't understand all the emotions around it.  If it's that dramatic to the family, then wait.  Surely the procedure will still exist in a couple of years.  If it's that big of a deal to your neice then she'll still want it then.  Until then, invest in good make up.

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:50:41 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well I didn't say that until she figuratively spit in my face, simply for trying to help her own daughter, who has cried her eyeballs out many an evening over this condition. I can't beleive she's ignored that, frankly - it is pretty easy to fix.  I sholul;d n ot have lost it, it never helps, really, no matter what the other person is doing, and she is under stress right now. But it strikes me as pretty damned oblivious.

It's not like she has to contirbute one red cent to help fix the problem - and yet she is still objecting. It's hard to take. But I tink she may be really stressed out. Maybe I will talk to Jennifer about that, and telll her we'll approach her mom a bout it in a week or so (but if she says no, Iam giving her the money an d-or going with her to see the doctor).
- Susan


If a young woman is investing that much emotion into a skin problem, I would think she needs therapy rather than a facial procedure.  Or maybe to spend a day in the waiting room of a Shriner's Hospital.

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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:55:30 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		Susan, every time you post I am getting a slightly different point of view on this situation. More and more with each post it is as though you are attacking your sister's abilities as a mother rather than defending your generous offer as an aunt.

While not talking to your sister first was probably not the best way to go about it, it is still not a horrid issue in and of itself. However, I am beginning to wonder WHY you didn't talk to your sister. Did you already know what her reaction would be? If so, did you avoid discussing it with her because of it knowing that it would make her look bad in her daughter's eyes if she got upset with you? Knowing that she could not demand you recind the offer.

I see this as treading on thin ice for you. I am the oldest of 6 children and several times had younger siblings critisize my parenting when they themselves had no children. Long term, it is a lose lose game for the one doing the critisizing/meddling.

I suggest you talk to your neice and admit you overstepped your boundaries. Do it without making your sister look like the evil mother and take the heat yourself. And I suggest you do it with your sister present or it will only appear that you are going behind her back and create more problems.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Need some feedback - am I wrong here? - 4/9/2007 8:55:55 AM   
Aileen68


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

My niece, Jennifer, age 20, is a college student. She is bright, witty, and beautiful on the inside, as well as the outside, has a wonderful sense of humor, and has many friends, including some guys that follow her around like a pack of lost puppy dogs.

She does, however, suffer from some acne scarring that is very noticeable (with or without make-up, and she is a bit of a tom-boy and not much for wearing much make-up).

I can tell, even though she doesn't ever bring up the topic, that she is very self-conscious about the appearance of her skin. It doesnt help, either, that her only sister, Deborah, looks somewhat like a cross between Miss America, and Barbie.


Could you possibly be projecting your own feelings on her.  You imply here that she is happy and popular.  If she was that upset over the scarring, don't you think that she would attempt to cover it up in some way with makeup? 

quote:

Well I didn't say that until she figuratively spit in my face, simply for trying to help her own daughter, who has cried her eyeballs out many an evening over this condition. I can't beleive she's ignored that, frankly - it is pretty easy to fix.    


And then you go on to say that she cries her eyes out.  So is she happy or unhappy and how much time are you there to witness all of this drama?  If you are that involved within their lives that you see all of this, then perhaps her mother should have been privy to how you wanted to help.

I'm just a little confused to what is actually going on and how much you actually see first hand as opposed to guessing and projecting your own feelings onto her.

< Message edited by Aileen68 -- 4/9/2007 8:57:30 AM >

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