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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 1:46:57 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

By the way, just so you know ... we are still in Korea ... many view Vietnam as a single battle in a larger war with the Soviets (and I trust you are able to look East and determine who won that war) ... and Iraq is still in doubt, in spite of what many would like to think.
 
Blatently nationalism on my part, I know ... at least I'm for something, instead of living my life against something.


I can agree with you there. I've saids it before, the American war of independence was Britain's Vietnam in a larger war against the French. Some wars are best losing because what the fuck would you have done with Vietnam and what the fuck would we have done with the colonies, they were costing Britain a fortune.

As for nationalism, you are welcome to it. Myself I don't care for it and it is like religion, it makes good people do bad things.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/10/2007 1:47:13 PM >

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 1:56:45 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Aren't you being unfair FirmhandKY?
 
It's a little like Jaque Chirac and the French. Even though he has basically made a political career out of opposing the United States in the United Nations ... playing the, "We are standing up to the United States.", game in order to get all the political capital he can in the next election ... we were supposed to know, that when it came to Iraq, this time he was being serious, and should have been taken seriously.
 
Silly, stupid Americans ... thinking The Boy That Cried Wolf, was originally of European origin.


I have never seen or heard any English speaking media (British or American) actually translate Chirac correctly or fully on even a trivial matter. The only way to know what Jacques Chirac says, is to speak French and listen to him speak for himself. It is quite easy to disregard him when nationalist media is misrepresenting him as is often the case.

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:05:06 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I have never seen or heard any English speaking media (British or American) actually translate Chirac correctly or fully on even a trivial matter. The only way to know what Jacques Chirac says, is to speak French and listen to him speak for himself. It is quite easy to disregard him when nationalist media is misrepresenting him as is often the case.


So that's it ... more years than I have years, of bad translations? You must really think we are fucking stupid people over here ... or you are honesty trying to get yourself laughed off this forum?
 
I agree with you on the Revolutionary war. If Great Britain hadn't been in conflict with France, it's likely that they would have kept the colonies at least another fifty years or so. 

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:14:48 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Back to more important things

The match finished Man U 7, Roma 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Any American who thinks soccer is rubbish should get a tape of this game.

Life On Mars also finished tonight. Everyone ought to watch it, including Americans. And its not what you think it might be.

E

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:27:00 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


So that's it ... more years than I have years, of bad translations? You must really think we are fucking stupid people over here ... or you are honesty trying to get yourself laughed off this forum?
 


The truth is I haven't seen any quality translations of Chirac in the English language media, British or American, most are abreviated voice overs where subltety is either lost or changed, either purposely through editing or through laziness or some other reason such as paraphrasing. Most English language media is more about stopping the audience getting bored than relaying accurate information. In fact I would go further and say I find the same when it comes to quoting German politicians. It is for that reason I read and listen to German and French media when it is a story about the politics of either. I would do the same with any other language if I spoke one.(I speak Dutch too but there is never a story about them) It is one of the reasons I think many Brits are anti-European, they are fed inaccurate information about what is said at EU summits and never take the time to find out what was really said.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/10/2007 2:28:25 PM >

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:28:45 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Aren't you being unfair FirmhandKY?
 
It's a little like Jaque Chirac and the French. Even though he has basically made a political career out of opposing the United States in the United Nations ... playing the, "We are standing up to the United States.", game in order to get all the political capital he can in the next election ... we were supposed to know, that when it came to Iraq, this time he was being serious, and should have been taken seriously.
 
Silly, stupid Americans ... thinking The Boy That Cried Wolf, was originally of European origin.


hey, us mean ole ugly 'Mericans are suppose to read minds, damnit!  Didn'tja know that? 

Of course we deserve condemnation when we fail to take into account what another national leader actually means, rather than what he says.

(Ten lashes to all 'Mericans for failure to read minds). 

FirmKY


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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:31:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Aren't you being unfair FirmhandKY?
 
It's a little like Jaque Chirac and the French. Even though he has basically made a political career out of opposing the United States in the United Nations ... playing the, "We are standing up to the United States.", game in order to get all the political capital he can in the next election ... we were supposed to know, that when it came to Iraq, this time he was being serious, and should have been taken seriously.
 
Silly, stupid Americans ... thinking The Boy That Cried Wolf, was originally of European origin.


hey, us mean ole ugly 'Mericans are suppose to read minds, damnit!  Didn'tja know that? 

Of course we deserve condemnation when we fail to take into account what another national leader actually means, rather than what he says.

(Ten lashes to all 'Mericans for failure to read minds). 

FirmKY



You don't listen to any national leaders, Blair has found that out so why would you listen to one that doesn't confirm your prejudices when you won't listen to one that does?

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:34:01 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		So, is it your contention that Jacque Chirac hasn't used opposition to the United States to great effect as a political tool, over the years?
 
How about Gerhard Schroder & Angela Merkel ... just exactly how bad can you botch a translation when it comes to some of the things they have said?

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:34:42 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The truth is I haven't seen any quality translations of Chirac in the English language media, British or American, most are abreviated voice overs where subltety is either lost or changed, either purposely through editing or through laziness or some other reason such as paraphrasing. Most English language media is more about stopping the audience getting bored than relaying accurate information. In fact I would go further and say I find the same when it comes to quoting German politicians. It is for that reason I read and listen to German and French media when it is a story about the politics of either. I would do the same with any other language if I spoke one.(I speak Dutch too but there is never a story about them) It is one of the reasons I think many Brits are anti-European, they are fed inaccurate information about what is said at EU summits and never take the time to find out what was really said.


I'd agree with this. We rarely get to hear what our European neighbours actually say as there is always a most annoying voice over translation. Annoying for those of us who speak another language that is and could follow it. Sadly, we did not learn lip reading in French or German at school, mind you we didnt learn it in English either.
E

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:38:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

So, is it your contention that Jacque Chirac hasn't used opposition to the United States to great effect as a political tool, over the years?
 

Every French politician with an ounce of political nouse will use opposition to America as a political tool. It is a national passtime. Opposing the US is as good as opposing Britain. To the French, it is all Anglo-Saxon and all an anathema to their sensibilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn 
How about Gerhard Schroder & Angela Merkel ... just exactly how bad can you botch a translation when it comes to some of the things they have said?


It's easier to botch German than French, especially in written form, its punctuation is a nightmare.

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:41:01 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

So, is it your contention that Jacque Chirac hasn't used opposition to the United States to great effect as a political tool, over the years?
 
How about Gerhard Schroder & Angela Merkel ... just exactly how bad can you botch a translation when it comes to some of the things they have said?


Caitlyn, I dont know how far you have studied languages and translation so excuse me if this is known to you already.

Every language has words that one can translate word for word and yet completely lose the original meaning of what was said, because such an approach to translation is erroneous. Translation is about conveying the meaning of what was said, not necessarily the exact words - and this is where subtle changes in meaning can be introduced, deliberately or by error.

The problem though, is that most English speakers dont speak any other language unless English is their second language. For those of us who could discern the meaning of something in German in the original, its quite possible we would hear something very different to what an English voiceover translation reports - yet we are in the minority who can do this. And those of us who could do this in two European languages other than English are freaks basically.

E

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:48:25 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Yes, a threat to British business interests is as much a threat to me and mine as the Luftwaffe might have been. I may not be the one at the top of the tree getting the most of the wealth, but I get a share of it, however indirectly. I would agree that the system is rotten, but its what we have to work with and sadly not many of us will live beyond a month with no bread. We have to protect our interests if we are to eat and to have any chance of turning the system around.



Not bombing Iran will not lead to us starving. At worst, some of us will have to make do with a smaller car/house and a few less pizzas. Others may lose their jobs. None of this even begins to warrant killing people.

Where does bombing people come into sustainable economic growth? Why don't we just lobby the government to have Murdoch and his mates pay their dues and direct this money to investment in people and infrastructure? Why aren't we putting pressure on the government to nationalise the queen's estates and invest the sale proceeds in the grass roots of this country, or is the queen's pleasure more important than people's lives? 

What's her face? Sophie of Wessex or something, bought a necklace for £175k and didn't have to pay tax like the rest of us because it's a nations treasure - nation's fuckin' treasure? do you reckon my granny will be able to borrow it to wear down the bingo? no, because it's nothing to do with the nation, it's the privileged creating and using their system to avoid paying tax. That's why people lose their jobs in this country, because we have people not paying taxes and lording it over us, and the supposed answer is for the rest of us to pay tax towards bombing people to maintain jobs in this country. Fucked or what.




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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:50:40 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You don't listen to any national leaders, Blair has found that out so why would you listen to one that doesn't confirm your prejudices when you won't listen to one that does?


This is a rediculous statement. The United States has a long history of dealing well with other leaders.
 
The point you seem to be missing, or are unwilling to accept, is that you can't listen to anyone, when they build political careers out of opposing you. How do you know when they are being serious, as opposed to just fishing for votes? How do we listen to the French, when they act like little biatches in the Balkans ... for Christ's sakes, nobody did more to make that war last longer, than the French. So, we don't invite them to participate in Afghanistan, and they take offense. They call meetings in the United Nations that turn into "France & Germany takes on the Americans", meetings, etc ... 
 
Nobody is twisting arms here meatcleaver. It was a coalition of the willing ... if you weren't willing, you didn't go. Even those that did go and later changed their mind (Spain, etc ...) suffered no ill results from the United States on this matter.
 
The problem with your point of view, is you discount all the times the Europeans have been wrong ... and lets not mince words here, you are wrong a whole hell of a lot more often than you are right.  

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:54:11 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The point you seem to be missing, or are unwilling to accept, is that you can't listen to anyone, when they build political careers out of opposing you.


Not true. Britain eventually made a habit of listening to people who built political careers in opposing them and they found out that most of them weren't terrorists but freedom fighters who wanted their freedom.

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:55:18 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Well we are getting somewhere now. You at least admit that opposition to America, has been a major political tool in European politics.
 
Do you now understand how it would be difficult to work with someone that makes attacking you, a part of their political platform?
 
I watched all the debates and a ton of election material in our last Presidential election. I can't recall ANY hard discussion of opposition to any Europeans, as part of our election.


< Message edited by caitlyn -- 4/10/2007 2:56:07 PM >

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 2:55:55 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The problem with your point of view, is you discount all the times the Europeans have been wrong ... and lets not mince words here, you are wrong a whole hell of a lot more often than you are right.  


No. I do count all the times they have been wrong which is why I oppose European backing for American imperialism, we've been there, we've done it and it was wrong then and it is wrong now.

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 3:04:32 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Lets go further ... did anyone that didn't agree to go, lost their MFN trade status with the United States?

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 3:06:50 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Sorry NG, but you are quoting part of one my posts and then answering an earlier point based on it - that makes no sense, being disjointed from the flow.

Of course there is no direct link between bombing Iran (should it become necessary) and British business interests. Bombing Iran would be on the basis of a military threat to Britain and its interests. It would make little sense to bomb in the case of a threat to business interests - it is not an appropriate response.

On the subject of the queen, and monarchy etc; I already offered to personally send you your 35p share of her and their wealth a long while back. Until you suggest an alternative to the current head of state which will be an improvement rather than just a change, I cannot take your ideas forward - but I'm willing to listen.

We dont lose jobs here because of the rich either - sure, they are a pain in the neck with all the excess they display when the country is in dire straits in many respects - but much of their wealth is invested in the companies that provide jobs and wealth to we plebs. We lose jobs and thus wealth because we are stuck in the idea that British is best and that we need not make any effort whatever in selling ourselves on that account. Additionally, and particularly in the case of Rover, we have management that is so inept that one must wonder what they teach at Harrow and Eton these days for all the money they cost. That Cameron is a product of that system is deeply worrying.

E

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 3:07:23 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Lets go further ... did anyone that didn't agree to go, lost their MFN trade status with the United States?


The US is dealing with the EU now as well as GATT, it can't threaten to withdraw trade from one state without EU reaction which would include all 27 EU members.

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RE: Majority of Euro's Support Preemptive Iran Strike .... - 4/10/2007 3:25:19 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ok, when was US foreign policy ever not "a disgrace", didn't "lack morals and ethics" and wasn't based on "the interests of the monied class"?


My knowledge pre-1940 is bordering on zero, so I can't help you there, but I can help you 1950 onwards, and 1940-1950 at a push.

In terms of ever, you tell me? Has it always been based around overthrowing a sovereign government in order to install authoritarian dictators prepared to do business with the US government in return for power, while the US government turns a blind eye to murder and torture in return for business?


It's a simple question NG.  Why are you avoiding answering it?

If you wish to restrict it to post-WWII American foreign policy, I'm game.  In just this thread, here were your comments about American foreign policy:

This is the weakest attempt to defend US foreign policy since bush said "they never tire of ways to harm our people, and neither do we". If you're going to offer a defence, then best to explain Guatemala, Nicaragua, The Philippines, Iraq, Venezuala, Brazil and Iran.

Since this pretty much covers a most of the time period since WWII, and you are making judgements, and challenging me to "explain" Guatemala, et al, then you must have an opinion and understanding of American foreign policy during this time frame, yes?

So, I'll restate the question:

Ok, since WWII, when was US foreign policy ever not "a disgrace", didn't "lack morals and ethics" and wasn't based on "the interests of the monied class"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Aren't you the one always saying that US foreign policy is selfish and focused only on the US's wants, needs and desires?


There is focus on the home country's desires and then there is installing dictators in order to serve those desires. They are not one and the same. There is such a thing as protecting your own interests while respecting the wishes and interests of others. It ain't all about you going charging 'round the world and taking what you desire.

For clarity's sake, are you implying that it is fine to install a dictator who uses violence and torture to maintain power because it suits the desires of the US government and supporters?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

What is the purpose of foreign policy in your opinion.


The purpose of foreign policy is to protect the nation's interests while respecting the interests and sovereignty of foreign nations. It's isn't all about your interests. It's about world interests.


... while respecting the wishes and interests of others.

... while respecting the interests and sovereignty of foreign nations

Here is my definition of "foreign policy":

International objectives pursued by a country in dealings with other countries, as well as the methods to achieve said objectives, in order to advance national interests.

Where is the part about "the wishes and interests of others"?  Or "respecting the interest and sovereignty of foreign nations"?  Of the "world's interest"? Am I missing something?

Any nation's foreign policy is designed for watching out for the "interests" of that nation, not all the other nations.

Isn't it?

FirmKY

PS.  I started another thread for that "alternate establishment" question.

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/10/2007 3:40:43 PM >

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