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RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:11:55 AM

WhipTheHip

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
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> to encourage romanticism of revenge in a victim is beyond unhealthy, it is, clinically speaking, unethical.

I am talking about channeling and directing anger at masochists. Many male masochists would relish
the opportunity. Many male masochists seek out females who were hurt for this very purpose, so
both their needs can be met.   Submissives don't have any problem with their masters topping them.
Why should have have a problem topping a male masochist? That is what many male masochists
seek. I don't think submissives realize that their are male masochists who crave what they would
enjoy dishing out.  Female survivors who try this feel empowered. It restores a little self-esteem
and self-respect. By role playing with male masochists you are not becomeing your perp, unless
you believe at heart every top is really a perp.  We are talking about using your imagination.

Those submssives who are able to do it usually find it does help. It is not a cure. It doesn't
make all the hurt go away. It is not the best thing for every survivor. But most survivors who
actually try it find it really does help. Subs will not change who they are. They will still be
subs. But temporarily allowing out that angry monster they bottle up in them is not always a
bad thing.

_____________________________

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Post #: 21

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:14:27 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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I can and have punched pillows, screamed, and cried -- both the husband and the slave were supportive. My slave has offered on a few occassions to be what you suggest, WhiptheHip -- he's learned to no offer because it actually pisses me off more.

When I hurt him, and I do indeed hurt him, it comes from a very positive place in me. I wouldn't want to risk damaging my positive sadism with negative feelings.

_____________________________

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

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(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 22

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:17:23 AM

sleazybutterfly

Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
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If I am going to top a masochist, I would much rather enjoy the pleasure of causing them pain, than have flashbacks about the abuse and take out my anger on them. That is dangerous whether you are a man or woman. Nothing wrong with causing pain, but causing it in anger could get out of control too easily. I am never going to relive the past horror, in order for some masochist guy to get his rocks off. That would be giving over control and sort of being used in the same way you were before.

_____________________________

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~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 23

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:20:37 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> to encourage romanticism of revenge in a victim is beyond unhealthy, it is, clinically speaking, unethical.

I am talking about channeling and directing anger at masochists. Many male masochists would relish
the opportunity. Many male masochists seek out females who were hurt for this very purpose, so
both their needs can be met.   Submissives don't have any problem with their masters topping them.
Why should have have a problem topping a male masochist? That is what many male masochists
seek. I don't think submissives realize that their are male masochists who crave what they would
enjoy dishing out.  Female survivors who try this feel empowered. It restores a little self-esteem
and self-respect. By role playing with male masochists you are not becomeing your perp, unless
you believe at heart every top is really a perp.  We are talking about using your imagination.

Those submssives who are able to do it usually find it does help. It is not a cure. It doesn't
make all the hurt go away. It is not the best thing for every survivor. But most survivors who
actually try it find it really does help. Subs will not change who they are. They will still be
subs. But temporarily allowing out that angry monster they bottle up in them is not always a
bad thing.

why can't you understand that

1. not all survivors of abuse are walking around with suppressed anger,
2. not all survivors crave revenge,
3. many submissives simply do not have a "top" bone in their body, and could never even roleplay such a scenario,
4. inflicting suffering on another, even a masochist, is directly opposed to the nature of a submissive??

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 24

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:23:41 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
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This is why it is clinically unethical: Displacement is a placebo (edited to correct my fingers going faster than my brain!.. thanks WTH), not an actual cure. In the end, until the actual issues are addressed and dealt with, encouraging someone to victimize another (even if the victim is willing) is shifting the process of their healing away from the proactive. Also, it could (and very likely will) encourage manifestations of further behaviors and pathologies to develop in less willing or acceptable situations and circumstances.

Non-clinically, I do not think it is healthy or wise to top, dom or dish out sadism from a point of revenge, hurt or rage. The likelihood of losing control of yourself and the situation is greatly increased and, to my way of thinking, this is not safe or sane, even if it is consensual.

< Message edited by puella -- 4/12/2007 11:41:11 AM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 25

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:25:28 AM

spanklette

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Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline

Thank you, luci...and you actually make my point, kinda. There are a few survivors of abuse who have posted on this thread...yet you and I are the only two who really approached our abusive situations in this manner. That doesn't make us healthier or better just different...which is the inherent problem with the OP...too many generalizations.

Every instance of abuse is processed individually, why would the healing process be any different?

_____________________________

~spanklette~

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"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 26

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:28:58 AM

WhipTheHip

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline

> Fox isn't the a-holes who abused me, Tom isn't them either, they don't deserve that anger.

Some masochists crave feeling this anger. By not sharing it with them you deprive them
of something they need, just like you may feel the need to be lashed. There is a difference
between real revenge and acting out revenge on someone who craves it.   Even though
I keep repeating this, others write as if I am actually advocating actual revenge.

I've been doing this with suvivors for ten years. The few who go through with it are
really thankful, and find it really does help them. They discover by doing this every
so often they are less frustrated, they have better relationships with their significant
other, they have more confidence and experience less hostility. I've talked to countless
survivors. One in every twenty actually go through with it. The others object for
the reasons given here. It is the same reasons verbatim, word for word.   They fear
becoming their perp.   They fear they might go too far. They just have anger at their
perp.   They are past the anger stage. They just can't bring themselves to consciously
direct their anger outward at a masochist, even though they are often violent females
always getting into fights with their partner and with other females.  The few who
who actually go through with it find it very helpful, and want to do it again and again.

_____________________________

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 27

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:31:00 AM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

> to encourage romanticism of revenge in a victim is beyond unhealthy, it is, clinically speaking, unethical.

I am talking about channeling and directing anger at masochists. Many male masochists would relish
the opportunity. Many male masochists seek out females who were hurt for this very purpose, so
both their needs can be met.   Submissives don't have any problem with their masters topping them.
Why should have have a problem topping a male masochist? That is what many male masochists
seek. I don't think submissives realize that their are male masochists who crave what they would
enjoy dishing out.  Female survivors who try this feel empowered. It restores a little self-esteem
and self-respect. By role playing with male masochists you are not becomeing your perp, unless
you believe at heart every top is really a perp.  We are talking about using your imagination.

Those submssives who are able to do it usually find it does help. It is not a cure. It doesn't
make all the hurt go away. It is not the best thing for every survivor. But most survivors who
actually try it find it really does help. Subs will not change who they are. They will still be
subs. But temporarily allowing out that angry monster they bottle up in them is not always a
bad thing.

I think there are an awful lot of generalizations and assumptions in your thoughts that simply do not apply to every person of abuse.

Some people who have been abused may actually grow to be more empathetic and helpful towards other abusees, because they have known the same pain.

Not everyone is out to victimize others because they were victimized themselves. Some people may choose to turn a past negative situation into a positive action in the present or future, so that they may find some value in the abuse that they experienced. Thats the only real healing---coming to terms with it and using it to the good. Hurting some innocent person doesn't help to reconcile anything, I wouldn't think.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 28

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:32:28 AM

amiciaN

Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline

I have read this thread with interest as another survivor and I think that what I just said is the key. Those of us who feel no need to lash out and hurt someone else are survivors of abuse, not victims. It took me over 20 years to lose the victim mindset, but it was only when I made the decision to no longer be a victim that real healing took place. It was not easy and took hard work, but I did it. Sure, there are still some thought and behavior patterns I have to guard against, but with NChaka's help and guidance, they are slowly changing.

I choose to be a survivor. I will never be a victim again.

As always, this is only my opinion based on my personal experiences and perspective. All people are different, therefore, ymmv.

_____________________________

NChaka's amicia

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 29

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:32:49 AM

smilingjaguar

Posts: 271
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

This is true of most survivors that is why they bury their pain and turn it inwards at themselves.
quote:

Are you a survivor of abuse? If so, are you just writing this post as an attempt to justify your own desires to harm another and projecting that desire as being "normal" among survivors.

quote:

You are not actually hurting a masochist by taking your anger out on them. You are satisfying a craving.

I'm a masochist *and* a survivor. There is no way in hell I could conceive of consenting to letting someone take out anger in this way. I crave pain, but not the type of pain that would come from being the target of an unbalanced survivor's rage. Nope, no way. And yes, I define the inability to deal with and explore that anger without unleashing it as being an unsafe, unbalanced state of mind.

quote:

Can't you differentiate between non-consensual activity between an adult
and a child, and consensual activity between two adults. By venting,
channeling and directing your anger at certain masochists you kill two
birds with one stone.

There are too many ways this can go wrong. What if said survivor lost touch with reality with the masochist tied up? I know when I went off the deep end like that years ago one person was not going to stop me. It was just going to be one more for the injury list. I know what my mind and body were capable of in that "protect" mode. I cannot imagine what they could do in revenge mode. Even now, with healed scars, that is not territory I deem in any way safe.

It's much better to go to therapy and face things. I couldn't afford it back then, so we ended up provoking my scars and making me face themwith me very securely bound. Looking back, I wouldn't do that again, but it was the only option at the time.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 30

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:34:25 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I've been doing this with suvivors for ten years. The few who go through with it are
really thankful, and find it really does help them. .

Again, WhipTheHip, I ask you... are you a certified councilor of some sort??? Dealing with the human psyche is no laughing matter.

I used to like to toss food out for the animals when we went camping... made me feel like damned Snow White or something... then someone who was trained in forrestry explained to me that... though they love to eat the food left for them, it is not in their best interest for me to to do so...

Maybe in what you said here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Some masochists crave feeling this anger. By not sharing it with them you deprive themof somethin g they need, just like you may feel the need to be lashed. .

you reveal that you are more interested in playing Snow White than actually doing what is best for the animals? Just a thought...

< Message edited by puella -- 4/12/2007 11:39:04 AM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 31

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:35:30 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette
Thank you, luci...and you actually make my point, kinda. There are a few survivors of abuse who have posted on this thread...yet you and I are the only two who really approached our abusive situations in this manner. That doesn't make us healthier or better just different...which is the inherent problem with the OP...too many generalizations.
Every instance of abuse is processed individually, why would the healing process be any different?

Exactly....a hundred different people would probably handle a situation in a hundred different ways. It's easy for any of us to generalize sometimes, especially if we haven't actually experienced personally what it is we're speaking on or been a member of the group we are seeking to understand. i don't think the OP means any offense. IMO, he generally does seem to be trying to understand why a woman who has been abused wouldn't automatically want to kill the rat bastard who hurt her . It is hard to understand sometimes even when i look back on my own experience. But, as i said, my personality and my upbringing combined to make me feel that moving on and prospering and truly being happy would be the best "revenge" and it truly has been. Wasting any more time on him (even if it were just spent on revenge fantasies) is just not an acceptable use of my time......slave luci

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Post #: 32

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:36:01 AM

WhipTheHip

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline

> Displacement is a panacea, not an actual cure.

You must be misusing the word "panacea."   The word "panacea" means an actual cure all.

> In the end, until the actual issues are addressed and dealt with, encouraging someone to
> victimize another (even if the victim is willing)

Are bottoms being victimized by their tops?   I can't believe you are saying such a thing in
this forum? You think male masochists would be victimized by this activity. You would
find male subs lining up to pay to get victimized this way.    Are female bottoms victimized
by their tops? I would think people into bdsm would understand this better.   I feel like
I'm talking to a vanilla crowd who condemns bdsm participants as abusers and victims.
Listen to yourself!

_____________________________

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Post #: 33

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:38:35 AM

opensoul

Posts: 77
Joined: 11/24/2006
Status: offline

I have to put my two cents in on this one. As someone who was abused the anger I felt and sometimes feel is not for anyone but the person who did the abuse. I have grown to look at the fact my abuse, Rape , has let me as a medical person in the military and a massage therapist now , try and be as helpful to someone who has been abused ,and may not been able to be cared for or enjoyed touch for many years. I can say I have been there and understand and will help with good touch ,open ears and closed mouth , no judgement . what did you do to cause it like some people will do at times and will send them to people I trust to help.

Anger and abusing someone else does not help the person who was abused or the person in the BDSM event . Negative vibs help no one in that.

< Message edited by opensoul -- 4/12/2007 11:39:36 AM >

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 34

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:39:39 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

You are right, I meant placebo, sorry! :) good catch! But I do encourage you to actually read that entire post.... I said that to dish out sadism, dominance or topping from a point of mental unhealth is not sane or safe for various reasons.... surely you can understand the difference?

< Message edited by puella -- 4/12/2007 11:42:51 AM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 35

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:44:08 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I can and have punched pillows, screamed, and cried -- both the husband and the slave were supportive. My slave has offered on a few occassions to be what you suggest, WhiptheHip -- he's learned to no offer because it actually pisses me off more.

When I hurt him, and I do indeed hurt him, it comes from a very positive place in me. I wouldn't want to risk damaging my positive sadism with negative feelings.

While I've never been abused, I must say that this is true for myself and my partner as well.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 36

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 11:47:52 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Revenge is about anger and being the victim. Until the anger has flowed away and until we let go of being the victim, the wound will never heal. However, what we often do is to DENY that we're angry...angry at being hurt and angry at being vulnerable. In order to work through anger, you first have to accept it.

If you're going to do something like this, I don't recommend you do a scenario where YOU are set up as the abuser. Set it up so that she (or he) is taking it out on an inanimate object. I've seen this done...trust me, a naked slave with a broom can open a can of whoop ass on a platic garbage can. I thought those things were indestructable.

Master Fire

_____________________________

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(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 37

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:02:48 PM

mythi

Posts: 257
Joined: 2/25/2007
From: Naples, FL
Status: offline

Just because someone wants you to hurt them, doesn't mean you should hurt them. And when I say hurt I mean injure, not just inflict pain. And when you direct negative energy at someone, esp when they're very vulnerable, you ARE injuring them. You are victimizing them, regardless of whether or not they want you to or enjoy it. And by coercing the sub into inflicting this damage, you're victimizing her too by making her a co-conspirator and perpetrator. Just what this worlds needs, huh? Time and energy would be better spent helping both the sub and masochist in this scenario to feel better about themselves and less like they deserve to be re-victimized.

_____________________________

“The truth doesn’t change based on our ability to stomach it.”
Flannery O’Connor

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 38

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:03:20 PM

WhipTheHip

Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline

> What if said survivor lost touch with reality with the masochist tied up?

That is why there are always others present. Safety precautions can always
be taken.

> What if said survivor lost touch with reality with the masochist tied up?
> I know what my mind and body were capable of in that "protect" mode.

With such extreme feelings being repressed there is even more reason
to vent some steam. I have heard this fear many times before, yet
I have never had a scene go bad on me or out of control. Yes,
I have had suvivors flail wildly, cuss, hit, and generally go
beserk. But there were female "safeties" nearby that could
have slowed things down if need be. But their help was never
needed.

_____________________________

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 39

RE: What I find hard to understand. - 4/12/2007 12:11:52 PM

Najakcharmer

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I know some females in the scene were badly mistreated
by some male at some point in their life. I don't get
why they seem to have little interest in acting out some
kind of role playing revenge fantasy. Some say they
are afraid of losing control and going too far, but there
could always be a third party present to prevent that
from happening. I would think that would be theraputic.
Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal
dramatization. I know if I was a female and a victim
of abuse, I know I would to channel my anger onto some
male.

*blink* *blink* Wow. I'm sorry your mind works that way. Not everyone's does.

Anger and revenge mostly hurts the person who carries it around with them worse than it hurts anyone else, and it's not a healthy space to play from. I would not play with someone who had this kind of mindset, and I would advise them not to play until they had gotten some kind of help in dealing with their unresolved anger issues.

A wild animal bit me once. Messed up my hand but good; I couldn't do much with it for a week or so, and the scars are still visible. The poor thing was scared, and hungry, and not accepting the diet it was currently on. So after I bandaged up I drove an hour across town one handed to get the special food it needed to be less scared and hungry. Now it's easier to "forgive" an animal than a person perhaps, because they have no self-awareness and are not consciously making a decison to do harm, but basically they're coming from the same place. Animals lash out because they're scared and hungry, or sick and in pain, and people aren't so different. You can be mad about being hurt, but also understand that animals (and people) do things for their own reasons, and those reasons usually don't have all that much to do with you.

I wouldn't waste my time being angry at a sick or hurting animal that lashed out at me, and I tend to regard people pretty much the same way. If a person has enough personal problems and mental unbalance that they are going around hurting people, they should be treated the same way as a sick animal - locked up and given medical care. If a person or an animal is aggressive to the point of being dangerous (or just annoying) to others, they also need to be handled properly. Or just shifted into a corner and ignored when it's time to clean the cages. Or given a good whack on the nose with a rake to demonstrate that their aggression is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. Constructive behavioral management works a lot better than revenge.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)

Post #: 40

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