RE: Abused into submission

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TigerNINTails -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 8:02:14 PM)
Who are you speaking to unsung? I believe the OP was about how submissive stances, and BDSM are related, because of his own experiences with slaves he's personally owned, largely oweing a large portion of their desire for a BDSM or TPE or M/s relationship stemming from their previous childhood abuse or later abusive relationships. This is where the direct line was drawn. Yes, there is an unprecedented rise in abuse of the female population, but remember, also, that the more people we have on this planet, the more that number will increase, as we get more and more people in the population that are not well balanced. Larger pool to draw from, means more incidents. But this wasn't about women specifically, that I'd gather, it was initially about submissives in general, but the OP was referring to women as HE deals with women specifically. Hope that clears it up. Oh, there's also the title of the thread... "Abused into Submission"... Might shed some light.[8D]

ciara -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 8:05:01 PM)
not sure that this matters to anyone who is reading, and i appologize for it, buti was in an abusive relationship for 23 years. it was not D/s , he was just a prick. No Dom in the lifestyle has ever treated me with disrepect, alll was concentual. Rarely i see a Dom /Domme that is out of control. It is what they live for(their control) . Those who are vanilla in my opinion could learn much from the D/s world. BTW.. i am perfectly fine. The vanilla abusive can never win, he has no control. i am one happy woman now that i have discovered who i am. Again, sorry for the rant.

ciara -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 8:11:53 PM)
Not knocking vanilla lifestyle and accusing them of all being abusive. Hell mom and dad were as vanilla as any can be yet they got along well. My point was just the opposite. So many accuse D/s as being abusive, i disagree.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 8:12:35 PM)
Bettie Mae Page was born April 22, 1923 in Kingsport Tennessee to Walter Roy Page and Edna Mae Pirtle. According to Bettie, her father molested her and her two sisters when they were young.

WhipTheHip -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 8:17:43 PM)
When I think of Doms, I always think of the dentist in The Little Shop of Horrors. Was that Steve Martin?

Devilslilsister -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 8:55:12 PM)
quote: "I wasn't abused because I was submissive... I was abused because I failed to protect my Well-Being" i dont like this for a few simple reasons. Protecting yourself isnt easy. Its not so cut and dried as what you said seems. Protecting yourself should not mean that one has to result to the measures i resort to - in order to protect yourself. i think its pretty easy to sit from your throne and spout this, but if we were to drop you down to say my size..... you might see things differently. do you know how hard it is to "protect" yourself from some one twice your size? Some one bigger, stronger, evil, harder then you. Do you know, that i have had to learn to master the art of being able to throw myself onto the ground from some ones arms... to escape them? ::smiles:: it always startes the crap out of them. If we go along your theory - i have failed to protect myself because i was trusting, naive, small in size, and not screwed in the head. i have learned to protect myself by not being trusting, naive, and learning to be vicious, cold, calculating, evil, and a predator. i agree - if we could all just learn to be evil and wicked, like i have, then we would all be safe, like i am. Long live being able to rip out some ones throat before they rip out yours! Edited to add - Oh and i do take responsiblity for everything thats happened to me. Which is why i took full responsibility in making sure it never happens again.

unsung -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 9:02:13 PM)
TigerNINTails, there is a strong inference being made that the lifestyle attracts more than an unusually high number of submissives that have been abused in some manner. Regardless of the OP the direction of the thread is where I am drawing my thoughts. I have read the thread and don't need it pointed it out to me , thank you.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 9:22:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unsung TigerNINTails, there is a strong inference being made that the lifestyle attracts more than an unusually high number of submissives that have been abused in some manner. Regardless of the OP the direction of the thread is where I am drawing my thoughts. I have read the thread and don't need it pointed it out to me , thank you. There is a theme in this thread- a rather unappreciated one- trying to compare and contrast abuse levels in BDSM vs. vanilla life, attempting to say that they're the same. This thread is about how BDSM seems to attract some previously abused. Perhaps other previously abused are repulsed from BDSM, contributing to a balanace between the two rates, if you are so deseperate to claim a similar rate of incidence. For all I know, 99.9% of women are abused, making up a considerable fraction of BDSM while 100% of all women in the vanilla world have been abused. While I don't find this likely, my point is, this is -not- the topic. Some female slaves I have been with have come to BDSM due to rape. They have reasons. Reasons which are difficult to understand, but obviously strong ones for their level of commitment and dedication. I am trying to understand these reasons. The effects abuse has on one's view on BDSM. This post has gone several different ways. Some females have posted that abuse may have contributed to dominance, or that abuse has had no effect. It stands to reason that most major types of possiblities exist in great enough fractions as to be considerable. Trying to gain a grasp for these ratios, though, and the reasonings of its member populations is of interest. As TigerNINTails bought up, I speak of female slaves since I have the most experience with these, being a heterosexual male Master. However, male submissives, female Dommes, and, hell, male Doms can answer this. I'm trying to draw connections between abuse and views on BDSM, particularly with regards to understanding why younger female slaves may chose to enter BDSM after having been raped. It happens. The posts comparing these to real life numbers are skew attempts at defending the poster's preconceived notions of why one should be a submissive, or why everyone is. These are unwelcome. Disregard them. I hope this covers it.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 9:32:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 i am not submissive because i was abused, i was abused because i was submissive. think about that. kinda makes sense doesn't it? for some reason it took me until the age of 21 to come to that realization. would i have been so submissive had i not been abused early in life? of course, i would just be a submissive without an airport hangar's worth of baggage. On it's surface.. it's a good quote.... but there is an implication that is gained from the quote that I think is not accurate. "I was abused because I was submissive" equates to "I am submissive therefore I will be abused" I consider it likely that many submissive individuals maybe at an increased risk of being abused. However, just because a person is submissive doesn't equate that they will be abused or that they are going to even to allow it to happen. Being submissive doesn't equate to disregarding their own personal Well-Being. But, for individuals that are abused they very much compromise their own personal Well-Being. Many submissives are very much well aware of their own personal boundaries that protect their Well-Being. They will not allow themselves to compromise on these boundaries that shift from living a healthy fulfilling life to an abused life. I am very troubled when anyone considers it appropriate to be submissive also equates to allowing oneself to be abused. Abused individuals are person's that fail to protect the boundaries that maintain a healthy Well-Being. They are submissive and they can be Dominant personalities as well. "I wasn't abused because I was submissive... I was abused because I failed to protect my Well-Being" this to me is a more accurate quote. nowhere did i imply that simply because one is submissive, one will be abused. however it is certainly a fact that being naturally submissives makes one more vulnerable to abuse. as for your quote...i must say that sort of thinking frightens and disturbs me. it blames the victim for their own abuse, so that in addition to the actual suffering and lifelong trauma brought about by the abuse itself, they also have this guilt forever on their backs.."i did this to me. it's my fault," that is neither accurate, nor healthy.

Vendaval -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 10:47:46 PM)
General reply to the subject matter - The statistics on physical and sexual abuse and rape only document the incidences reported, many go unreported. So knowing how many women in vanilla relationships have been abused or raped and how many submissive women in BD/DS/SM relationships have been abused or raped is impossible to know. Be careful not to confuse correlation with causation. People react differently to abuse, many fall into the roles of victim or abuser and continue the cycle. Others will shut off all feelings and trust nobody, become a anti-social recluse, some will seek purity and goodness from a religious and/or spiritual path. Many drown the memories in alcohol and drugs and other addictive behaviors. If someone in your life has this type of history and it impairs their functioning, listen to what they need and help them get therapy, whether individual or group. The healing process takes a long time, usually years. Give them the support they need and be patient with their progress. Peace, Vendaval

SusanofO -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 10:55:38 PM)
daddysprop247: I understood what you meant in your original quote. There are of course all kinds of kids w/various kinds of personalities that suffer from abuse, but I agree it can be easier for some abusers to heap it on a kid with a naturally submissive personality. Anyone who would ever blame the kid in this situation, IMO, is insane (I don't think anyone seriously said that, and if anyone thought that, I think they misunderstood what was said, because it is ridiculous, IMO). CuriousLord: I can understand your concern. However, since as many folks who weren't abused as kids may be "into" bdsm as adults, as those who were abused as kids, (which I think is highly possible) then I guess I am wondering... How you could really, truly know for sure why someone is attracted to the bdsm activity (even though you think it might be "obvious" it is because one of your partners was abused) - unless they of course, tell you that (in which case, I wouldn't doubt the source, I'd believe them, unless they are a known liar, or something). I can say I've read there can be a definite connection, and there are other reasons as well, I am sure. Individuals can be very complex beings, and each comes from their own situation. Even then, since many others who weren't abused are themselves into bdsm, who is to say they couldn't be into it for just as supposedly "pathetic or nefarious" reasons? Furthermore, that even if they were, that this always,always leads to destructive outcomes? (w/no exceptions, ever?) Please, please no flames for this last statement! My point in saying it is that - nobody really knows, do they? Like amayos said - stats are incomplete, people lie on surveys, etc. One really has not much idea of what people's motives are, for being attracted to bdsm activity - except maybe that they enjoy it - without directly asking the source (the person themselves). If they know the answer. They may know, and they may not know, really. I enjoy bdsm activity. No matter what reasons I'd discover for liking it, I can say the likelihood is high I'll continue to enjoy it (it's consensual, and I am not irreparably hurting anyone doing it.) So. My reasoning is - unless you yourself "know" you aren't into bdsm for "higher and more pure" reasons, then - don't worry about it. Or, do worry about it, if you want, I guess. It is consensual activity. One solution, if you're concerned, IMO, is to get a partner abuse counselling (or insist on it, as a condition for any bdsm partnership) that you have w/a person who has suffered past abuse in childhood - which you can do, if you're the Dominant partner, IMO. My personal feeling is that doing this, can sometimes tend to screw with people's notions of personal liberty, (even if it might indeed be helpful for them to get counselling), although some folks do welcome the idea it has been suggested, and this makes them feel "supported." But - sometimes, the suggestion can leave them feeling like "damaged goods", over something they had no original hand in producing the effects of. So -IMO, it pays to be diplomatic, if you are suggesting it (or if you'd insist on it). Like I even need to say this, but anyway - I wouldnt insist, but if you do think it is necesssary, rather suggest, and help them find a good counsellor, too, while you're at it (depending on the circumstances). I guess I am kind of a bit like MasterFire Ma'aM, in that I'd want someone to recognize on their own, if they needed help. And if I suggested it, and they refused to "follow through" - but it was really screwing up the relationship, then maybe it will take it breaking up, for someone to realize the effect is pretty detrimental to themsleves (or their partners) and go get some counselling. We are all on out own path, IMO, in life I've seen people in counsellling who don't want to be there. It is not all that effective (and yet still can be expensive), if they are hating each minute of it. Although once in a blue moon, IMO, dragging someone into counselling can work. I also really do think, that it is impossible to generalize, about any effects of abuse in a particular person's background. I know people who are very high-functioning, who have had little, or no help, discussing an abusive childhood w/professional consellors, for example, and they've had backgrounds that would truly curl your hair. Some people need a lot of help, some don't. Who knows why? I don't. It is, IMO, realistic to realize it is someone's own decision to get (or accept) help, or not, as well as conclude they need it. Although if you think they do, then suggest it, IMO. The following might strike some as an offensive statement (but isn't meant to be one) - But I think sometimes, some people with "non-abusive" backgrounds can be pretty _ucked up, too, and can be as destructive to a relationship, as far as their behavior in it, contributing to its ultimate destruction. Or, they can also be very helpful, despite any "issues" they might be dealing with (just like someone who has perhaps, suffered from past abuse in childhood) There are all sorts of other things that could screw with a relationship, besides past abuse. A classic example, would be an alcoholic partner, who bitches out their spouse for having a gambling addiction. It is the pot calling the kettle black. The person can see their partner's flaws, they just cannot see their own flaws, so the partner's flaws are mostly blamed for a relationship's destruction. *I am not saying that is what you are doing at all - I don't even know you, and don't suspect this. I only brought it up, because I've seen more than a few folks like this. IMO, it is not helpful, particularly. Sorry to sound so cheery. Actually, I do believe with all of my heart, that Love truly can conquer a myriad of problems, that the best pharmacuetical and surgical medicine on the planet sometimes cannot seem to solve. This is probably one of those areas, IMO (helping someone deal w/a past abusive history). I know your heart is in the right place in asking your question, and I wish you good luck in dealing with your situation. If it's any consolation, my sister has a T-shirt that says: "I put the FUN in DysFUNctional". I think that's kinda funny. She bought it, because she was tired of hearing about how family dysfunction is so rare, and always severe, and inevitably leads someone to future personal destruction - it's not that rare, IMO, everyone's family probably has a slight bit of it. Severe dysfunctional families certainly exist, and IMO, are very probably the exception to the rule - and it can sometimes be very, very devastating for people, and also lead sometimes to intergenerational abuse, if someone doesn't break the cycle of that abuse. Good luck, and it is an interesting topic, I think. - Susan

spanklette -> RE: Abused into submission (4/12/2007 11:01:41 PM)
I think, and forgive me if I'm wrong, that the trouble you're having with the answers you're receiving is that no one wants to enter into the lifestyle in an unhealthy manner. No one wants to advocate it or even admit that it exists. That includes me. It's hard for me to grasp the concept that someone was shown the lifestyle via rape. Rape is not a starting point for BDSM or D/s...it is merely a crime committed on an unwilling victim. Whether or not there is a larger percentage of abuse victims active in the lifestyle...well, I have no idea. But, does abuse lead to BDSM or D/s? No, not in my opinion. It's a part of them that they will take with them wherever they go, be it marriage with 2.5 kids or into the lifestyle.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 3:13:00 AM)
You're right about the fear. I realize I'm the ass in Sunday School pointing out the contradictions and logical flaws in Bible class, leaving the poor teacher to try to account for them with broken and circle logic. No one wanted there not to be a God, nor not a Heaven; everyone wanted to live forever in bliss, to believe the world would, no matter what you did, ultimately be okay in the end. There wasn't a faster route to unpopulatarity than to challenge this, nor would most hear it, despite reason. I get I'm doing that here. I'm able to point to a sample and say, "These were brought to our lifestyle- your lifestyle- through means you would consider deplorable. You can not argue this; it is fact." Responses have told me I'm wrong, most without justifcation, some with fodder. I have no better alternative than to say the same I had to the poor kids at Sunday School: I value this life. I wish to take part in it, fully, and appreciate it for everything it is, without need to make assumptions for things it simply isn't. I'm sorry if this offends you, or scares you, but it's the truth. It is my God. So here is the truth, as I know it to be. BDSM often simulates rape. Some my tie up, gag, bind, and otherwise strip control from another, forcing themselves upon them sexually. I've come to understand that one of the most tramuatic aspects of rape is that it can be intensively physically enjoyable. I doubt it would be half so bad if not. To physically enjoy being violated.. to have a lose of control.. and to hate it, all at once. Sexual victims tend to act out the crimes inflicted upon them, particularly younger, more impressionable victims. This lifestyle grants a means to this tendancy. When all is said and done, rape victims have come to this lifestyle to act out their rapes. Many are rather content in such a position. This is true. To me, it is this simple. I'm sick of false-logic arguments against it. My hope is to better understand the truth, not to manipulate it to suit my own agenda. So, yes, I can see why this is hard for many to admit. I do wish the "take a breath before reading and before posting" part of the preface of my OP was paid a bit more attention to. This wasn't a common interest post, and I didn't expect everyone to have the stomach to confront it honsetly. Excuse the anger, spanklette. It's not directed at you. From the responses, I have sensed a theme of conscious and willful ignorance. That's what's getting to me.

LotusSong -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 3:36:21 AM)
I guess that you will just have to be raped against your will to understand just how if affects your life.

CuriousLord -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 3:36:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO CuriousLord: I can understand your concern. However, since as many folks who weren't abused as kids may be "into" bdsm as adults, as those who were abused as kids, (which I think is highly possible) then I guess I am wondering... How you could really, truly know for sure why someone is attracted to the bdsm activity (even though you think it might be "obvious" it is because one of your partners was abused) - unless they of course, tell you that (in which case, I wouldn't doubt the source, I'd believe them, unless they are a known liar, or something). I can say I've read there can be a definite connection, and there are other reasons as well, I am sure. Individuals can be very complex beings, and each comes from their own situation. Yes, many have directly stated it. Some have had crying fits over it. It is not up for debate. quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Even then, since many others who weren't abused are themselves into bdsm, who is to say they couldn't be into it for just as supposedly "pathetic or nefarious" reasons? Furthermore, that even if they were, that this always,always leads to destructive outcomes? (w/no exceptions, ever?) Please, please no flames for this last statement! My point in saying it is that - nobody really knows, do they? Like amayos said - stats are incomplete, people lie on surveys, etc. I've personally met them. In cases, their rapists. Ironically, out of the lies, the vast majority have been to cover up things. quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO One really has not much idea of what people's motives are, for being attracted to bdsm activity - except maybe that they enjoy it - without directly asking the source (the person themselves). If they know the answer. They may know, and they may not know, really. I enjoy bdsm activity. No matter what reasons I'd discover for liking it, I can say the likelihood is high I'll continue to enjoy it (it's consensual, and I am not irreparably hurting anyone doing it.) Again, they've told me. It isn't suposition. quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO So. My reasoning is - unless you yourself "know" you aren't into bdsm for "higher and more pure" reasons, then - don't worry about it. Or, do worry about it, if you want, I guess. It is consensual activity. Five-year old girls masturbate 'consensually' when their daddies played with their private parts beforehand. Excuse the bluntness, but you must understand how shallow the notion of consent is when it comes to abusive-related activities. You're diluting something vulgar with pleasant and vague terms. --- Later in your post, you went on to apologize for being cheery. I'd apologize for being so morbid. I've basically posted a summation of the deepest secrets of those I've cared about deeply for before only to have others tell me such a thing couldn't possibly be true just because they couldn't empathize. Not all have reflected this view, though, for those that have, they've displayed an uncharacteristically selfish aspect of this community at the willful disregard for stated fact. I'm taken back at the disrespect displayed, and, bluntly, mad. I'm calling it quits here for a while, with regards to replying to the flames. There has been good feed back from those with personal experiences- those who did not demand I consider all others to be like them- and I'll be addressing those. This wasn't a common interest thread, as clearly stated, yet unknowledgable, unexperienced individuals readily bumped in anyhow. I'm upset at the minority of responses. Just upset enough at this minority to dwell on it. There's nothing quite so aggrivating as a loss of respect for those admired.

KnightofMists -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 5:34:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unsung KnightofMists, and a spin to this is, do you believe a person could be abused to protect their boundries or protect their well being and the well being of those that are dependant on them? I am not exactly sure what your meaning ... However, if I understand correctly.... that in the effort to protect ones' boundaries of well-being... that it can be painful and difficult. Particularly when a person is attempting to pull away from the abusive person.

Littlesavage -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 5:37:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I've come to understand that one of the most tramuatic aspects of rape is that it can be intensively physically enjoyable. I doubt it would be half so bad if not. To physically enjoy being violated.. to have a lose of control.. and to hate it, all at once. I can only speak from personal experience but thats far from true for me. It was not an enjoyable experience, it was a disempowering, terrifying, harrowing experince. There is no fear like it. That experience destroyed a part of me. BDSM and D/s is different, its consensual interaction. It has only been a positive experience so far.

Aswad -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 7:33:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Which is why it's not possible to know at this time whether abuse really is more prevalent in kink, or whether it's simply discussed more openly or even rewarded for claiming abuse than in common society. Considering how feedback from one's community is the greatest factor in turning an abused person into an abuse victim (I hope the distinction is clear), it would not seem in the least bit surprising if the different feedback in the BDSM community is central to how these people turn out in the community. Having people respond to it in a caring, yet not as extreme, manner can probably help lessen the pain for many. I've seen people go through those hells and come out entirely unscathed, until the people around them start telling them they're just in shock and they must be broken now, and how they don't realize just how bad the thing that was done to them is. How crazy is that? The person that was raped doesn't know how bad it was, while the person they're talking to that hasn't been through this, does know? Anyway, after a while, they then start coming apart. Those that haven't gotten this strong, negative response have remained in this purported "shock" indefinitely with no adverse effects, except occasionally some trust issues, in my experience. And whether someone has been previously abused is something to be sensitive about, but no reason to avoid playing with them, entering a lifestyle relationship with them, or anything else. That would just be furthering the abuse by stripping them of their right to choose. I believe they've had quite enough of that.

Aswad -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 7:53:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I disagree wholeheartedly...I don't have any data to support my belief...But I do believe it is only using common sense to suggest that there would be a higher correlation between abuse and BDSM. Respectfully, those who do have data appear to disagree. That is not to say that you can't continue to believe as you wish, of course, just that it isn't supported by anything substantial; "common sense" doesn't count. "Common sense is the sum of prejudices accumulated by adulthood", etc...

Aswad -> RE: Abused into submission (4/13/2007 8:00:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikolette The concept of failure indicates a responsibility or ability [...] No, the concept of failure indicates the absence of success. Were they successful in preventing the abuse? No? Then they failed to do so. No value judgement, just facts. Did they have the means to avoid failure? No. The responsibility? No. Are they to blame for failing? No. Sorry, but sometimes people don't succeed at something, generally because they didn't have the prerequisite qualifications to succeed. That's what the word "failure" is for.

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