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lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 1:57:53 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Lately there has been a lot of threads about cheating, lying and dishonesty in general. One of the things that has only been touched on lightly was the lack of truth. Not a blatant lie, just an omission of truth. And in any relationship but especially in a BDSM relationship, the omission of the truth can be, and is as far as I'm concerned, just as bad.

As I’ve said before, when someone lies to me, and I mean blatantly lies, it’s like they are telling me that they either do not respect me enough to tell me the truth, or they think I am too stupid to know they are lying. Either way I take it as a personal insult. But what about the one withholds the truth from you? The submissive you "scened" with and never spoke to you again because you stepped over a line you didn't know existed because they never told you about it for fear that you would see them as a "wimp"... Or the dominant that allowed you to believe that they had lots of experience with a signal whip when in reality they practiced once on a pillow but didn't want to admit that because they were worried about appearing inexperienced.

I know people are going to say that you have to ask questions and lots of them. It's all about communication. But what if you don't feel there is a need to ask? What if it's a LTR and you believe with your whole heart and soul that everything is ok? What if you are only led to believe that the communication is going great only to find out later that you failed as a mind reader and no, in reality what you did with HIS/HER repeated permission, really wasn't ok? And with that it's over... collar removed. Then to find out that He/She didn't tell you the truth because He/She supposedly "was trying to spare your feelings" and He/She was hoping you would figure it out on your own... that's the deep issue, withholding the truth is a lie of omission.

How many times has any one of us said "You know, that would have been nice to know at the time!"? When we talk about honesty and communication we should also talk about truth. Like a submissive that tells you how badly her/his ex dominant beat them but left out the part about how they originally told that dominant that they were into that kind of treatment. That would shine a whole different light on it wouldn't it?

To withhold the truth from your partner, no matter what the reasoning behind it, is still a lie, isn’t it? Ok, so Christmas and birthday gifts are different and surprise parties don’t count. But if you are not telling someone something that in the long run will hurt or harm either you or them…. Is still a lie... isn't it?

I know this is still rather vague, and I'm sorry about that... hopefully you'll get the drift of the topic though.

Jewel

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 2:15:34 PM   
srahfox


Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		yes in a way it it a lie, but to every story there are two sides to the truth. What about someone not saying something to keep from hurting your feelings? What do you do then? I was in a situation once where a friend of mind told me she was sleeping with a married man. She begged me to please please please not say anything. The problem was that the person she was cheating with was a friend of ours husband. She didn't want to be found out and she didn't want to hurt our friend. (Apparently not hurting her was not important enough to keep her from it) My friends are extreamly important to me, when someone asks me to not tell, I don't. But she was hurting a friend. Well the friend did find out her husband was cheating on her but not with who. Everyone broke up and I was at least relieved that I was no longer actively keeping something from a friend I knew she needed to know. Then she did find out through someone else who her husband was cheating on. When the hurt party asked me if I had known I told her I did and told her why I never told. Fortunately for me she didn't blame me. Oddly the cheater 'friend' did blame me (Though word had not come from me) and we are no longer friends. I'm fine with that. But I lied. Lied to a friend I really cared about. Not actively but by not saying anything. I don't know what else I would have done. Certainly I didn't mean to hurt anyone.
Bdsm is a part of our lives, and saddly life is sometimes.. wonky. Sometimes people don't say what they should because of embarrasement, shame, a promise, or because they really do want to keep something from you. Saddly there really is no way around that. We can just be as smart as possible, ask as many questions as we can think of, get to know our 'partners' as well as we possible.
Nearly everyone one in this life has something they omit from others.

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 2:19:09 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Yup, omission is still a lie. And it can get people very hurt or misunderstood.

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 2:59:45 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

yes in a way it it a lie, but to every story there are two sides to the truth. What about someone not saying something to keep from hurting your feelings? What do you do then? I was in a situation once where a friend of mind told me she was sleeping with a married man. She begged me to please please please not say anything. The problem was that the person she was cheating with was a friend of ours husband. She didn't want to be found out and she didn't want to hurt our friend. (Apparently not hurting her was not important enough to keep her from it) My friends are extreamly important to me, when someone asks me to not tell, I don't. But she was hurting a friend. Well the friend did find out her husband was cheating on her but not with who. Everyone broke up and I was at least relieved that I was no longer actively keeping something from a friend I knew she needed to know. Then she did find out through someone else who her husband was cheating on. When the hurt party asked me if I had known I told her I did and told her why I never told. Fortunately for me she didn't blame me. Oddly the cheater 'friend' did blame me (Though word had not come from me) and we are no longer friends. I'm fine with that. But I lied. Lied to a friend I really cared about. Not actively but by not saying anything. I don't know what else I would have done. Certainly I didn't mean to hurt anyone.



I've been in that situation, I understand how you feel and appreciate how difficult it was for you.

But it was different for me, I told her either she told the cheated spouse, or I did. Why? Not because I wanted my friend to be hurt, cuz no matter what happened, she was going to be hurt. I didn't want her to have to continue to live a lie. I didn't want her to go about her day thinking all was grand only to find out later that it was all one big deceit. I did it because I would want the same in return. I've been in those shoes... I've been the one to find out a year later that he was cheating all along, that he wasn't out celebrating the night our son was born, he was getting laid. I only found out because my sister was angry that the same girl that was sleeping with my husband was also sleeping with hers. I defended the girl, she was a dear friend of ours, she wouldn't do that. I DEFENDED HER! I know what it feels like to keep looking back and kicking myself for not seeing it sooner, not recognizing the "signs", for being stupid and naive'... I would have been so much better off is the people that called me a friend would have told me the truth right up front.

I have to strongly disagree, there is no reason good enough as far as I'm concerned, don't spare my feelings by lying to me or withholding the truth from me. I know you did it out of care and love for both of your friends, but it's a lose lose situation. I can deal with anything so long as it honest and truthful.

quote:

Yup, omission is still a lie. And it can get people very hurt or misunderstood.


I agree whole heartedly

Jewel

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 3:41:27 PM   
BeachMystress


Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline
A lie of omission is still a lie, and toy and I almost lost our relationship over one about a month ago. I'm one of those odd people who can't stand lies in any form. I tell people up front to not ever lie to me. It is a deal breaker. Whatever they did wrong that needs to be lied about might be able to be worked through if they are honest about it. A lie can not be worked out. I don't care why the lie was told either. End.. over.. finis.

Because it was a lie of omission rather than a bald faced lie, we managed to work it out. . barely. For two days I was pretty sure I was leaving and all that remained was how to seperate our belongings. Things are still a little tender in areas. He now understands how serious I am about not being lied to in the slightest.

quote:

I was in a situation once where a friend of mind told me she was sleeping with a married man. ... with was a friend of ours husband.

What type of friend puts you in this situation? Because she was feeling guilty she decided to make you part of her perfidy. I'm glad your friend who was cheated on didn't sever the relationship with you, but I don't see the loss of the one who was having the affair as a bad thing. She put you in an untenable position. You don't do that to a friend.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 3:56:27 PM   
goodhouseboy


Posts: 23
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline 		as a self testomony to being lied to,..it is the dommes as bad as the subs doing it.
i just finished a trek through the country, from ia to mo to ar to n carolina, to mich and back to ia again...all because a few so called dommes claimed they wanted a serious houseboy, and i was used/ and made to feel like trash.
it is just as bad for us boys as it is for the dommes, except the dommes aren't out there on the street living in their cars because a sub didnt like them.

i have heard so much about girl subs being made aware of dangers....
no one bothers to mention how dangerous it is for us males. i am fortunate i came out of it alive and intact, and i made it home to ia safe.
i will never again trust someone's word that they are a Ms until i can get proof with references, and there is a problem too. i have yet myself personally found "any" domme willing to give out references to subs.....

it is a bad bad deal for anyone to be lied to.

i have 3 things i live by..
do not lie to me
do not steal from me
and
do not stab me in the back.

have a good day
houseboy

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 4:09:58 PM   
Tempestspet


Posts: 360
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline 		If you are omitting something that your partner, or whomever...really.... should know, would be pertinent,....then yes it's lying. You would be intentially not telling something that makes a difference. Whether or not it makes a difference to you only.... is not all that matters.
I hate to say absolutely, everytime it would be a lie. Because nothing... that I can think of right now... is this absolute.

I also don't think that what they don't know won't hurt them, idea works as a falesafe either.... is either direction you take it.

Give your omition the same respect and consideration you would like the other person to give it...where they speaking to you... or not speaking for that matter...smiles...

When I was younger I said, with absolute certainty of course... *grins* that certain issues would remain fast and true with me. Most every single one of items has changed as I've matured, and experienced life. And mind you, I have lots of learning and life yet to be experienced and discovered.

I guess through all my rambling, that as a rule.... yes omitting is a lie. Because you are knowingly, and willfully holding information that the other person may need, or want to know.
Would you apreciate that being done to you?


Tempest's pet
jennifer

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 4:48:06 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

i will never again trust someone's word that they are a Ms until i can get proof with references, and there is a problem too. i have yet myself personally found "any" domme willing to give out references to subs.....


Thank you so much for bringing that up along with so many other really good points. That is something that I never thought of until it happened to us. Because of the deceit, future potential relationships will have to pay the price. What choice are we (the generic "we") left with?

And I'm glad you are physically ok goodhouseboy, I know the mental part will take a long time to get past... I'm just sorry that all had to happen to you.

quote:

Whatever they did wrong that needs to be lied about might be able to be worked through if they are honest about it. A lie can not be worked out. I don't care why the lie was told either. End.. over.. finis.


My thoughts exactly. If someone breaks something of mine I can get past that with no problem, I know, shit happens. But if someone breaks something of mine and doesn't tell me it happened hoping I won't notice.... that really pisses me of, not so easy to deal with, you know?

Jewel

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 5:44:36 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Lies, untruths, omision of the truth..is all deceitful. All too often you hear of those in both nilla and lifestyle relationships who are hurt emotionally by the lack of "truthful" communication. Is it a lie if it simply is witheld?..damned straight it is. I can see in many instances where it could actually be worse..what if they had aids and casually didn't mention it....death by lie? I would think so. As for those who share their secret and then ask you to be a party to the diversion..OMG I have to agree, who would do that to a friend. I don't need friends like that, thank you. I am sorry, but I would rat them out in a heartbeat..partly because they were hurting my friend and partly because I have to stand on my own beliefs..perhaps that's judgemental...but if I was wrong in that thinking, why don't they just fess up if it's not wrong..hmmm. I recently heard of a situation where a sub was strung along for months, perhaps more, on the belief that everything was on the up & up. Come to find out, he was not really that interested and was simply being nice and not hurting their feelings. BULL...he was being a coward and kept up the lie that he initiated in the first place. I had an ex who was so bad about lying, she couldn't remember what the last version of her story was...so of course she just didn't say anything to appear to be innocent...it doesn't work that way. The best policy, is to always simply be honest about anything and everything...hell, if I see a cutey in the store I will not only glance, I will generally say something to my wife like "cute ass", no point in acting like I don't notice or that I am being noble by not looking. By behaving this way 100% of the time, she is quite comfortable with knowing I would never NOT say something..is a good thing to know...and works both ways. I have yet to hear of anyone getting hurt badly by telling the truth and/or NOT keeping those little white lies a secret..they would come back to haunt you at a later date anyway. SO..bottom line..it's a lie whether you say it..or you don't.

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 8:07:54 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
Lately there has been a lot of threads about cheating, lying and dishonesty in general. One of the things that has only been touched on lightly was the lack of truth. Not a blatant lie, just an omission of truth.

I won't go into rant about a lie that changed my life forever...
Lies of omission are just as bad if not worse, because of the arrogance suggesting you've thought about it, know it's lie, will not tell it verbally, but you're suggesting I'm too stupid to learn the truth eventually.
quote:

I know people are going to say that you have to ask questions and lots of them. It's all about communication. But what if you don't feel there is a need to ask? What if it's a LTR and you believe with your whole heart and soul that everything is ok?

I do ask questions; I've dated a married man; I asked him are you involved with anyone/have a girlfriend? His reply was, "no, I am free."
I've let go of the issue, but was very hurt by it for several reasons. I don't date married men, but if I were, it wouldn't be a financially destitute one who's a bad lover... Made me look bad socially for NO good reason.

Indeed as someone said, lies are for wimps afraid of the truth... I have No respect for liars; I would prefer a defiant truth teller any day, and deal with any consequence of truth.. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 4/21/2005 8:11:00 PM >

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 8:18:53 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

And in any relationship but especially in a BDSM relationship, the omission of the truth can be, and is as far as I'm concerned, just as bad.


I agree with you 100%. Having lived with someone who didn't see this the same way for 10 years, it caused a great deal of emotional stress and a lot of pain. And these sins of omission weren't related to him cheating on me, but they still brought a rift in our relationship to the point where I couldn't live with it anymore.

Honesty isn't just about not lying. It's about being honest.

L

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/21/2005 8:56:39 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Lies of omission are the worst. When someone stands before me and bold faced lies to my face, I at least stand a chance at seeing through it. A lie of omission is something that generally takes time to surface. By the time they do the damage is deep. In my opinion, it means every interaction with that person from the moment of omission on is based upon a lie....and therefore is a lie in itself. The worst of lies are the ones that aren't spoken out loud.

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/22/2005 4:08:29 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Lies of omission are just as bad if not worse, because of the arrogance suggesting you've thought about it, know it's lie, will not tell it verbally, but you're suggesting I'm too stupid to learn the truth eventually.


I just had to repeat that... I never really thought of it like that... it's like a premeditated lie... you are so right.

quote:

Honesty isn't just about not lying. It's about being honest.


Well put, and I would like to add being open as well as honest.

I want to thank everyone for their replies, I know this is something that happens all the time, and maybe I'm being naive' again... but maybe getting it out there and showing how hurtful it really is will help others to see how wrong it is.

Jewel

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Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/22/2005 12:54:01 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
I know this is something that happens all the time, and maybe I'm being naive' again... but maybe getting it out there and showing how hurtful it really is will help others to see how wrong it is.
Jewel

I just wanted to nod when Erin said lies of omission are especially bad because by the time the truth comes to light, too much damage is already done sometimes...

Naive is not so bad, it allows you to see people for who they are, and allows them the chance to impress you with their honesty, openness, kindness, and benevolence... Being able to trust is not so bad... Hopefully some of the people who omit information without intent to hurt will learn it's okay to show ultimate respect and trust to their partners/loved ones by being open/honest. M

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/22/2005 2:30:01 PM   
ajewl


Posts: 16
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Lies of omission are just as bad if not worse, because of the arrogance suggesting you've thought about it, know it's lie, will not tell it verbally, but you're suggesting I'm too stupid to learn the truth eventually.

I just had to repeat that... I never really thought of it like that... it's like a premeditated lie... you are so right.


I am firm in the belief that any sort of lie is a lie....and personally I can not forgive them or the person who has deceived me with their lie(s). I did experience a deceitful 'other' ( I wont dignify this person by giving him an acknowledgement of dom) but, he had a history of violence towards women. He had a good reputaion among other life styler mutual friends, I did check referrences, but he also had a couple of 'little domestic situations' happen in his past... he didn't mention and mutual friends did not know about. The first outburst I could accept as a really bad day, the second outburst led to broken glass...when the dust settled and after I cleaned everything up, I quietly left while he was out with his friends....and never went back!

quote:

i have 3 things i live by..
do not lie to me
do not steal from me
and
do not stab me in the back.

I agree and live by this also....

Nothing in life worth lies.....best wishes and stay safe.

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/22/2005 10:58:37 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		For me the definition of "dishonesty" is very simple:

Letting someone else believe something that you know is untrue.

I've known many liars who justified their lying to themselves by saying that they didn't really lie, they just avoided telling the truth. Well, whether people lie by saying something false, or lie by not saying something true, as far as I'm concerned they're dishonest and I don't want to have anything to do with them.

Lam

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/22/2005 11:07:45 PM   
deelights


Posts: 11
Joined: 6/9/2004
Status: offline 		perfect definition of dishonesty and very to the point

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/23/2005 1:58:31 AM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		I cannot stand being lied to even if it is only a lie of omission. I warn those close to Me that if they tell Me a lie I WILL find out and I will sever the relationship immediately. I am not totally unreasonable though and if I believe that it was an honest mistake on their part (ie they simply forgot about it and it was a lie of omission) then sometimes things can be worked out. This depends on what the subject was however.

I left a 6 year relationship (vanilla) because he lied about who he had slept with previously. I had asked him a direct question prior to sleeping with him and found out by accident 6 years later that he had lied. And yes, I had solid proof.

I left a 12 year marriage partially because of a direct lie that had been told Me. I discovered the lie and gave him the opportunity to tell Me the truth without penalty or hurt feelings. He stayed with the original lie and told Me a few years later that, even knowing I would forgive him if he had told Me when I gave him the chance to, he had decided to be stubborn and stick with the lie.

quote:

Being able to trust is not so bad... Hopefully some of the people who omit information without intent to hurt will learn it's okay to show ultimate respect and trust to their partners/loved ones by being open/honest. M


I tell them point blank that no matter what they do they need to tell Me so we can work it out. I can forgive almost anything except a lie. When the relationship is very long term, every few years I offer an unconditional grace day where they can confess anything they have been hiding. I offer this because most males seem to have trouble accepting the fact that they can tell Me when they mess up badly.

BeachMystress...I can sympathize with what You are going through. Thank goodness it was only a lie of omission and could be worked through.

My first husband cheated on Me and I wish someone had had the balls to tell Me at the time. The funny thing is that he had permission and could have told Me and chose not to.

ShiftedJewel....like You I would want to know. The one time someone told Me they were cheating on their spouse I gave them the same choice...either they tell or I tell. Keeping that secret hurts everyone concerned including Me.

Gentle Lady

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/23/2005 12:56:40 PM   
feline


Posts: 1101
Joined: 2/23/2004
From: CA
Status: offline 		In my eyes, it's a lie. And that's all that matters to me. Because if you lie by omission to me, your history.






Attachment (1)

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RE: lie of omission? - 4/23/2005 1:31:55 PM   
uncollaredcandy


Posts: 21
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I don't want to be the one disagreeing here, but sometimes lies of omission are just somthing that have't come up. If you never discussed something and later find out something you dont like about the subject it isn't a lie of omission it just hasn't come up yet. I would hate to think anyone would throw away a realtionship with someone they care about over that.

I agree honesty is the best policy and I try to be as open and honest as possible with the people in my life, but at times it isn't awalsy possible. For instance at work, I am privy to privlaged information, if my partner wanted to know about it, I couldn't talk about it.

Anyway, my point is not all "lies of omission" are lies or decitful or meant to hurt someone, sometimes they are off limits subjects, or things that just haven't been discussed or addressed yet.

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