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Imperialism - 4/14/2007 3:13:31 AM

NorthernGent

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Are there circumstances where the supression of a nation's sovereignty and ideas are acceptable?

Does such surpression contradict the ideals of freedom and democracy?

Feel free to discuss.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

Post #: 1

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 4:16:33 AM

seeksfemslave

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The ideas presented by Nazi Germany ?
The policies being followed by R Mugabe in Zimbabwe
ditto Saddam Hussein he was the leader in Iraq for those who didnt know. Right little comic he was.

Now the Iraquis' havent got 'im they are killing one another. So maybe we should have left him to it.
ahh but what about Israel if we had ?

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 2

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 4:25:12 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The ideas presented by Nazi Germany ?
The policies being followed by R Mugabe in Zimbabwe
ditto Saddam Hussein he was the leader in Iraq for those who didnt know. Right little comic he was.

So what exactly is it about these ideas that justify other nations intervening?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 3

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 4:26:55 AM

LadyEllen

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In the case of nazi Germany, no one intervened or indeed was even interested beyond celebrating their success, until they started their campaign of expansion.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 4

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 4:31:22 AM

ScooterTrash

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From: Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Are there circumstances where the supression of a nation's sovereignty and ideas are acceptable?

Does such surpression contradict the ideals of freedom and democracy?

Feel free to discuss.

Suppression, or criticism? Criticizing is acceptable, taking matters into your own hands and trying to change things...rebellious. Sometimes rebellious can be a necessary thing...but of course that would have to be my opinion since the country I live in rebelled against some other country across the pond...it was, er, uh, hmmm...oh yeah, England.

Don't get excited NG....just stirring the pot.....lol.

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 5

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 5:43:12 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Are there circumstances where the supression of a nation's sovereignty and ideas are acceptable?

Does such surpression contradict the ideals of freedom and democracy?

Feel free to discuss.

Suppression, or criticism? Criticizing is acceptable, taking matters into your own hands and trying to change things...rebellious. Sometimes rebellious can be a necessary thing...but of course that would have to be my opinion since the country I live in rebelled against some other country across the pond...it was, er, uh, hmmm...oh yeah, England.

Don't get excited NG....just stirring the pot.....lol.

Criticism is fine. Any free nation should have open criticism and a vast array of ideas. What does it say about a nation all believing in the same thing? What does it say about a nation all believing in the righteousness of an idea? It doesn't say much for freedom of thought. Where thought is free, and by extension people are truly free, there can only be a wide range of political ideas, because surely we're not robots with inate tendencies to agree with each other?

Anyway, you know me Scooter - easily excited ;-)

Surpression of ideas is a different matter entirely. Speaking of England and imperialism - it was completely at odds with freedom - the idea that the English could go 'round the world and dictate what people needed was denying people their liberty. I was going to say I'm glad the empire has gone as I wouldn't have wanted to live in that age, but we have Blair on a crusade of enlightenment and we have basically swapped colonisation for economic and moral imperialism.

As we're talking about armed rebellion, I'm genuinely curious: was the armed rebellion of Americans/the colonists justified? and is the armed rebellion of communists justified? Let's not get excited, only stirring the pot Scooter ;-)

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 6

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 5:50:04 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

In the case of nazi Germany, no one intervened or indeed was even interested beyond celebrating their success, until they started their campaign of expansion.

E

Not strictly true. The Russians intervened by supporting the German communists - various methods.

Anyway, back on track, I'm interested to hear an opinion on if/where the despotism of an idea renders foreign intervention acceptable?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 7

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 7:02:03 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The ideas presented by Nazi Germany ?
The policies being followed by R Mugabe in Zimbabwe
ditto Saddam Hussein he was the leader in Iraq for those who didnt know. Right little comic he was.

Now the Iraquis' havent got 'im they are killing one another. So maybe we should have left him to it.
ahh but what about Israel if we had ?

No, no, no!

Saddam Hussein was a kindly old grandfather.

Haven't those hard-lined Leftys taught you anything yet

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 8

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 7:06:33 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The ideas presented by Nazi Germany ?
The policies being followed by R Mugabe in Zimbabwe
ditto Saddam Hussein he was the leader in Iraq for those who didnt know. Right little comic he was.

Now the Iraquis' havent got 'im they are killing one another. So maybe we should have left him to it.
ahh but what about Israel if we had ?

No, no, no!

Saddam Hussein was a kindly old grandfather.

Haven't those hard-lined Leftys taught you anything yet

Sanity, if you want to wank yourself into a coma about the usual, then any chance you can do it elsewhere?

Alternatively, you could discuss the OP.

Edited to add: on reflection, are you saying Saddam Hussein is justification for invading Iraq?

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/14/2007 7:09:08 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 9

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 7:12:14 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
So what exactly is it about these ideas that justify other nations intervening?

'Justify' is just a word and people define it however they like. What you're poking with that stick of yours is the roots of conflict, and they're just a part of life.

Say I go over and punch someone in the nose whenever I think they need it. Think of how that kind of behavior's gone over through time... duels were once respectable, and I remember my eldest brother in a bare-knuckle fist fight with some kid over diddly-squat while both fathers watched.

It all depends on who is doing the judging, and what their mindset is, and whether or not the guy who just liberated millions and millions of people is a Democrat or if he's a Republican

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 10

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 7:18:53 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
So what exactly is it about these ideas that justify other nations intervening?

'Justify' is just a word and people define it however they like. What you're poking with that stick of yours is the roots of conflict, and they're just a part of life.

Say I go over and punch someone in the nose whenever I think they need it. Think of how that kind of behavior's gone over through time... duels were once respectable, and I remember my eldest brother in a bare-knuckle fist fight with some kid over diddly-squat while both fathers watched.

It all depends on who is doing the judging, and what their mindset is, and whether or not the guy who just liberated millions and millions of people is a Democrat or if he's a Republican

It's nothing to do with democrats and republicans. This is a message board where you're free to put your point of view across.

The hightlighted bit seems to hint at your opinion. Care to exapnd on that in relation to Iraq?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 11

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 8:50:44 AM

Sinergy

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Hello A/all,

I have made the point that my general attitude in life is that people should make sure their own house is in order before ragging on other people for having a dirty house.

People in the US griped about Saddam Hussein's brutality and used it to justify an armed invasion.

I dont recall reading about these same people griping about Pol Pot slaughtering 2 million of his citizens. Demanding we invade Stalinist Russia. Insisting China be taken to task for Tianennman Square. Invading Indonesia. We did not move in to overthrow Idi Amin. I could go on.

There is an aspect to the US approach to Iraq, Grenada, Panama, etc., that simply reeks of the neighborhood bully beating up smaller kids for their lunch money. The only difference between Saddam and the rest of them is that the people in charge of the US at the time honestly believed they could overthrow Saddam, whereas it was fairly obvious to everybody during those other times that a) it could not be done (Russia) or b) it would destroy US relations with the rest of the world (Kampuchea).

Then you have the oil issue. Kampuchea is not sitting on vast reserves of the energy supply currently in vogue.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 12

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 9:58:33 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

I have made the point that my general attitude in life is that people should make sure their own house is in order before ragging on other people for having a dirty house.

Excellent Excellent post - Especially this part.

One thing comes to mind when I read the Gent's query :

Putin's comments regarding this administration's vision /move-to a ''Unipolar world'' :

One centre of authority, one centre of force, one centre of decision-making.
It is world in which there is one master, one sovereign. But the ''sovereign'' {meaning the United States} is eventually destroyed from within.

I'm so happy that vision is falling apart right in Iraq!!!!

Ya'll have a good weekend

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/14/2007 10:02:10 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 13

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 11:42:22 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Are there circumstances where the supression of a nation's sovereignty and ideas are acceptable?

Does such surpression contradict the ideals of freedom and democracy?

Feel free to discuss.

Senator Joe Biden announced the other day that (he) wants to send Troops to Darfur.
There goes any shot he had at becomming President.
Most people in the U.S. want our Troops out of Iraq and Biden wants to put them in more countries?
Gent, I don't know why the people in Washington want to get us involved in the problems of foreign countries.
You tell me and we'll both know.
I read somewhere that we have Troops in 131 different countries.
(Please don't ask me for a "source", I read so many things I just can't remember all the sources.)
Eisenhower warned us of "The Military-Industrial Complex."
That is what is at work in Washington I believe.
It has nothing to do with "freedom" and everything to do with "Profits." In short I think our government has been hijacked by big corporations.
It's funny how those on the "left" think we should "intervene" in foreign countries' affairs! What a bunch Hawks they turned out to be!
I'm not an interventionist. If you look at the U.S. Constitution the sole reason for our Military is to guard our borders and stem invaisions.
We've had 37,000 Troops guarding S. Korea's border for 54 years now but none on our own border with Mexico!
That needs to end!

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 14

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 12:01:44 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

In the case of nazi Germany, no one intervened or indeed was even interested beyond celebrating their success, until they started their campaign of expansion.

E

xactly, hitler violated other nations sovereignty unjustly. Obviously if one sovereign power attacks another it better have a good reason or other sovereign nations will come to their aid not hitlers. Nations tend to side with who is most morally correct, but not always when bucks are on the line.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 15

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 12:03:54 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, I don't know why the people in Washington want to get us involved in the problems of foreign countries.

We've had 37,000 Troops guarding S. Korea's border for 54 years now but none on our own border with Mexico!

or make mexico the 51st state LOL

every time i hear this i think of the movie biodome where the kid says "think global" LOL

global control.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/14/2007 12:07:15 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 16

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 12:20:23 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Saddam Hussein was a kindly old grandfather.

No, but many say Iraq was better off WITH Hussein than without him. And objectively, there are 500,000 dead Iraqis SINCE he was overthrown, that aren't his responsibility.

They are ours.

So, since I *wasn't* responsible for 500,000 deaths BEFORE Bush got his hard-on for Iraq, I'd say WE were better off before, also.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 17

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 12:21:36 PM

farglebargle

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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

In the case of nazi Germany, no one intervened or indeed was even interested beyond celebrating their success, until they started their campaign of expansion.

E

xactly, hitler violated other nations sovereignty unjustly. Obviously if one sovereign power attacks another it better have a good reason or other sovereign nations will come to their aid not hitlers. Nations tend to side with who is most morally correct, but not always when bucks are on the line.

Well, W's Grandpappy, Prescott Bush *was* making a LOT of money working for the Nazis.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 18

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 12:23:00 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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Oh, and in any Government founded on the Declaration of Independence, The People hold Sovereignty.

i.e.: Each and every one of us is a Sovereign Entity.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 19

RE: Imperialism - 4/14/2007 12:31:38 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, I don't know why the people in Washington want to get us involved in the problems of foreign countries.

We've had 37,000 Troops guarding S. Korea's border for 54 years now but none on our own border with Mexico!

or make mexico the 51st state LOL

every time i hear this i think of the movie biodome where the kid says "think global" LOL

global control.

RealOne, I think we should avoid anything with the words "World" or "Global" in it!
Translation; "The U.S. Taxpayer gets screwed."

Fargle, you're right about the Bush's, they're all about big business making money off of Taxpayer dollars.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 20

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