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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I find it interesting that you bring up a question that has long been settled in international law, and title the thread "Imperialism".

FirmKY

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I find it interesting that you bring up a question that has long been settled in international law, and title the thread "Imperialism".

FirmKY

Until a law is enforced or abided by, it might as not well exist and debate is still necessary until it is internalised and accepted as the norm. However, we are not there yet and while the west blames the rest of the world for the sad state of the world, it is the west that still has imperial projects. The US keeps denying it is an imperial power but still keeps imposing its will on other nations and exploiting other people's resources, which is what imperialism is. It's not the only nation but it is America that seems to have the problem of recognizing what imperialism is and keeps insisting it is the good guy while exploiting other countries resources.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

2.  "Imperialism" has been redefined over the last 50 years or so, primarily by Marxists - as anything which the US does that they don't like, instead of what it originally meant.

FirmKY

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To rub salt into the wounds, he then redirected German soldiers when they were 40 miles outside of Moscow and it was there for the taking, when even a giraffe knows that if you knock out the communications and government centre you pretty much deliver the final blow.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

2.  "Imperialism" has been redefined over the last 50 years or so, primarily by Marxists - as anything which the US does that they don't like, instead of what it originally meant.

FirmKY

im·pe·ri·al·ism      /ɪmˈpɪəriəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[im-peer-ee-uh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

em·per·or      /ˈɛmpərər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[em-per-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

em·pire      /ˈɛmpaɪər; for 8–10 also ɒmˈpɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[em-pahyuhr; for 8–10 also om-peer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

(often initial capital letter) the historical period during which a nation is under such a government: a history of the second French empire.

(initial capital letter) a variety of apple somewhat resembling the McIntosh.

(initial capital letter) characteristic of or developed during the first French Empire, 1804–15.

(usually initial capital letter) (of women's attire and coiffures) of the style that prevailed during the first French Empire, in clothing being characterized esp. by décolletage and a high waistline, coming just below the bust, from which the skirt hangs straight and loose.

(often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to the style of architecture, furnishings, and decoration prevailing in France and imitated to a greater or lesser extent in various other countries, c1800–30: characterized by the use of delicate but elaborate ornamentation imitated from Greek and Roman examples or containing classical allusions, as animal forms for the legs of furniture, bas-reliefs of classical figures, motifs of wreaths, torches, caryatids, lyres, and urns and by the occasional use of military and Egyptian motifs and, under the Napoleonic Empire itself, of symbols alluding to Napoleon I, as bees or the letter N.

[Origin: 1250–1300; ME < AF, OF < L imperium; see empery]

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I would imagine 1) describes US policy in Iraq (and eventually Iran if AnencephalyBoy has his way) fairly accurately.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You are correct Sinergy, based upon the strict definition you provided the USA isn't and never has been "Imperialistic". Corporations perhaps, but there has never been an emperor.

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I would imagine 1) describes US policy in Iraq (and eventually Iran if AnencephalyBoy has his way) fairly accurately.

However, in this debate are you using the definition provided or do you want to use one that is "fairly accurate" if it serves your point?

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The other definitions assume that an emperor exists.

Which was the point I made.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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The other definitions assume that an emperor exists.

Which was the point I made.

But he doesn't. Which is my only point.

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People around the world had no problem in recognizing British imperialism then and it has no problem recognizing American imperialism now.

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

A nation's sovereingnty ends with its own borders and citizens.
Crossing those borders and attacking other nations is an act
of war.  It is not for outside nations to dictate what form of
government is decided upon within a country. 
 

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

And another idea to discuss is the connection between
military, economic and cultural imperialisation.
 

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

[It's a bit like the Muslims today - on the one hand a pack of uneducated, backward rabble, on the otherhand a sophisticated network capable of terrorising the world.

You couldn't make it up.

i think that is a false assumption.   they are martyring themselves to fight the great evil.  What exactly is the great evil trying to do?  Ravage their resources and what?  Force "Liberty" on them,   you know the right to inheritance will be history, taxation, the need for perscriptions to get drugs and all those other freedoms that you and i share that they do not have.   They are fighting for their "Liberty".     They can see through all our bullshit that we have taken for granted becasue we no longer know the difference.   They have the right and duty to fight for their freedom and repel the coporate take over of their lands.   think about it.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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People around the world had no problem in recognizing British imperialism then and it has no problem recognizing American imperialism now.

I won't represent to know the evolution from the monarchy to the British form of democracy. The world is much different now than it was when "pirates" were commissioned by the reigning Queen. 

As long as we are using the "fairly accurate" approach to the definition of "imperialism"; the argument can be made if the "British can" so "can be" the USA. You've gone outside the strict definition and are now debating upon peoples' "judgment". Using the definition of "judgment" as a guide though neither position can be considered quantitatively correct or incorrect.

Therefore I can be one of the "people around the world" having no problem saying that in my judgment there is no such thing as USA imperialism, and have no problem whatsoever with your position that there is.

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Hope this helps clarify what Imperialism originally meant, and how it has nothing to do with how Marxists have defined things they dont like about US foreign policy.

Imperialism:  the permanent annexation by a state of territory and its population in a remote part of the world by a state to form part of an empire.

Imperialism: The highest, and last, stage of capitalism. As defined by Lenin, imperialism is the merging of bank capital with industrial capital to create finance capital; industry is increasingly dominated by monopolies; the export of capital becomes more important than the export of commodities; super-profits are obtained by imperialist super-exploitation of the less developed countries.

Imperialism - economic control gained through the corporate organization of nation states.

One of the earlier theories of trade, whose heyday was during the period between the 1500s and 1700s. Fundamental tenets:

1.) Wealth = power
2.) Wealth is finite.
3.) One state’s gain is another’s loss.

Notice the resemblance to realism here. Mercantilism shares the assumptions of the zero-sum game and relative gains. Let’s unpack these concepts briefly. First, the concept that wealth is power is derived from the assumption that wealth is highly fungible. In other words, wealth can very easily be converted into other forms of power, such as military instruments, influence, and territory.

Second, the concept that wealth is finite derives from the concept that there is a limited amount of natural resources that can be extracted. During the age of mercantilism, states regarded wealth not in terms of paper money but in terms of things with intrinsic value, such as gold, silver and other commodities.

Third, because wealth is finite, there is effectively a zero-sum game among different states. If one state gains more resources, it is denying those resources to other states, increasing its relative power.

These three basic tenets of mercantilism drive certain policies. In general, mercantilists seek to maximize their wealth relative to other states. In order to do so, they will:

1.) Aggressively exploit natural resources abroad. Build colonies to extract wealth.
2.) Maximize export-to-import ratios and attempt to build up trade surpluses with other countries.
3.) Prevent other states from obtaining wealth.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Genuinely, I can't believe that anyone would argue that Iraq is not imperialism:

1) Extending rule over another nation.
2) Using this rule to exploit that nation's resources.

These were the cornerstones of the British empire. You could find people in Britain today who would argue that the British were a benevolent force educating the savages - does that mean it wasn't an empire?

Basically, Britain dominated another nation and exploited its resources, exactly what the US is doing today.

Genuinely, I can't believe that anyone would argue that Iraq is not imperialism:

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'll make that argument.  It isn't imperialism.

1.  Extending rule.

The "rule" of the US in Iraq is a temporary measure.  Iraq hasn't, and won't become a subordinate political department of the United States.

2) Using this rule to exploit that nation's resources.

Which resources have we expropriated?  Oil?  Didn't Iraq just sign some contracts with China and Russia that did not favor the US?  What other resource might you be thinking about?

FirmKY

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  WASHINGTON: Despite whispers in some quarters that the Bush administration invaded Iraq to take control of its oil, the first contracts with major oil firms from Iraq's new government are likely to go not to US companies, but rather to firms from China, India, Vietnam, and Indonesia. Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indian_firms_to_get_oil_contracts_from_Iraq/articleshow/1869478.cms