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Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 12:40:59 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		i was reading another thread sub girls with vanilla guys and it got me thinking about domination and submission and the context in which we think about it.  i didn't want to detract from that thread, so i figured i would start my own here. 

i understand everyone's personal D/s relationship is different, and fits their own needs, no "one true way" and all.  Some may like to keep it bedroom only and others prefer a 24/7 TPE relationship, many falling somewhere inbetween the two. i am also sure there will probably be many different interpretations on what it is to be submissive, or even "a submissive". 

my question is this: If you identify as submissive, (bdsm needs aside, unless they are tied in with your submissive nature, which is something that someone may bring to light here) then why would it matter if your "guy" or "gal" were dom or not?  Being submissive entails submitting to the will of another.  Most submissives, as stated in the other thread, don't prefer vanilla men as their needs are not met in those kinds of relationships. What needs specifically? What i want to understand is why does submission have to necessarily have to rely on dominance to work?  What is it that a dominant does to make your submission work or feel more validating for you?  If you met and fell madly in love with a vanilla, couldn't you just quietly go along being submissive to him without anything back as far as active dominance?  Submission is conditional if it requires active domination on your partners part - not saying that's wrong at all, just trying to understand the nuances of the dynamic better. Submission, to be fulfilling,  needs something more then just submitting your will to another. 


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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 12:44:15 PM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		For me it is the balance, if I am submitting to someone that is not dominant then I am not really submitting at all. Hows that for short n simple?

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 12:52:44 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		In order for me to feel fulfilled, I need someone to enjoy my submission. And to be perfectly honest, I like some of the pomp and circumstance that the lifestyle brings out in people. If I were with a vanilla partner, and I can only speculate here, but I doubt I would be enjoying the company of others in the lifestyle. I enjoy the community, that I doubt I would be a part of if I was with a vanilla partner.
 
On a more personal note about my own submissive nature, I want my submission to be recognized for what it is. Maybe that's selfish, but it's me. And, from a certain standpoint I need the scenes in order to be fulfilled, as well. Sure, they are icing on the cake...but what's a good cake without icing?

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"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 1:36:44 PM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		It's all about the P in TPE. Power. If he isn't Dominanting me then I am not submitting to him. I am not bending to his will. He is not in control of me. I need to surrender, totally, and I need to strive to do so. I'm not new to the lifestyle but I'm just now figuring a lot of this out with Master's guidance.

I need a man who knows what he's doing to me, does it even when I don't want it or understand it, and does it with positive goals in mind, and I'm going through this right now.

I'm out of control of my own emotions and am in AWE that Master knows exactly what he's doing and how to most effectively get me where I need to be. I respect it. I mean ... man ... I ~respect~ it. I'm scared, out of control of my own emotions, but also in an interesting state of peace and comfort total trust.

Can't get that in a vanilla cone.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 1:40:48 PM   
BondageTopJere


Posts: 170
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline 		Personally,  I think its the need for clarity on boths sides.  While control can be found by a submissive in a vanilla relationship, or a dominant for that matter, its the common language that BDSM provides that can provide that clarity. 

Every relationship, be it boss-worker, parent-child, friend to friend, if you look at it from the right angle, is based on control.  That control may be professional in form,  parental in a another, peer pressure etc, but  it is usually self-evident as to who is in control or not.  That relationship might be benevolent, manipulative, pick any word to describe.  It is simply who we are as human beings to do so, and I think humans would be incapable of functioning as any kind of society without it. 

Romantic relationships with the last few decades are the exception. For the first time I can think of,  both parties are expected by society to have an equal say in the decision making process.  Its quite frankly BS, but that another thread.  The appropriate part is that a persons role in the romantic relationship and who is in control of that relationship  is far less defined, expected, what have you, than it was.  But that doesn't change the fact that as humans, we either have a need to control or need to be controlled, be it writ large or extremely specific.  So the end result is the vanilla world is now left with holdover gender roles of the past, new roles cooked up by whoever felt the need to, media influenced expectations etc. and nearly everyone is in a state of confusion as who they are what is expected of them.  SOme do find they're match, the find a comfortable balance of control between themselves.  But the vast majority do not, which is where BDSM comes in.

BDSM has 2 clearly defined roles.  Sub. Dom.  We all might constantly argue what the terms are,  a lot of us aren't even sure of what we are, but we do have a...  example, a blueprint to work by.  A blueprint that is work in progress to be sure, and the details are uniquely different to the person, but a sub is a sub is a sub, a dom is a dom is a dom.   Every dom unique, every sub unique, but they are still a dom or sub or both in the same body.  Think of this analogy.  Houses by and large, are unique contructs by and large. They have many styles they might look like, sizes to choose from, colors; every single detail can be completely different from one house to the next.  Even if 2 houses started out exactly the same,  they wil have difference even only a few days later.  But they are all houses.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 1:49:57 PM   
mstrjx


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Status: offline 		I think that the word that was missing in these first few posts which is critical to someone with a strongly submissive bent is 'structure'.  Combine that with 'consequences', and you have the flavor of what being submissive is about.

The problem with simply being submissive, attached to a vanilla person, is that the other, while possible being served unknowingly, is not providing the active structure that the submissive requires to 'be' themselves.  Rather like fruit on a branch not getting water through the root system.  With that structure comes a feeling of staying within the guidelines (obedience) or somehow falling outside of that (which is disobedience or a transgression of some sort, requiring some fashion of consequences - discipline or punishment or what word you fancy).

If one party is looking for an 'uneven' relationship, while the other is looking to give equality, that is where the problems come to pass.  The not-submissive person will periodically desire choices to be made by the submissive, which either goes against their 'relationship' grain, or else the submissive will tire of the responsibilities inherent in equality.

Jeff

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 1:50:34 PM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Don't know if this helps as it kind of twists your question around. What about submissive women in vanilla relationships? One fairly extreme example is one of my yoga students. She is an attractive woman in her early 40's. Her husband is an extreme control freak. He will not allow her to go anywhere without him, do anything without him, except visit with relatives.

They both work at the same company, they drive to work together. They eat lunch together. All outside activities they do together. They don't even have a second car. She pretty much is forbidden to do anything that is not under his watchful gaze. During the first years she was attending my class, he would peek through the door to make sure she was really there.

This guy is not dominant, he is just domineering. She is completely submissive to all of this. She knows he is controlling her, but it doesn't bother her enough to do anything about it.

I know quite a number of submissives in a fetish relationship that have way more freedom than this woman does.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 2:55:34 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		I can't give control to a man who won't take it. For example, if I said I didn't care what movie we saw, except no horror films I would then expect a dominant man to pick his top choice flick. But a nondominant man would want me to have a top choice which I easily might not have. He would also be resentful at always having to pick which movie, which restaurant, what we would do.

A dominant man is usually in control of these and other things except for when he chooses to have me pick. Since I find that every day life is filled with thousands of choices and I use a lot of energy on decision making, even for unimportant decisions, I'm happier with a man who won't stand in front of the ice cream section in the supermarket for twenty minutes trying to find the perfect choice the way I do. Having a dominant partner means I don't do that, I get chocolate marshmallow if they have it or fudge ripple as his second choice. One less decision for me to make in a day. And for me, that's a good thing.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 3:02:59 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

What i want to understand is why does submission have to necessarily have to rely on dominance to work? 


For me personally, submissiveness is a response (to dominance). 

If dominance is absent, my submissiveness remains dormant.  

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 3:06:18 PM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		velvetears: I do see what you're saying, and I've met men who weren't into bdsm, who I actually thought were fairly Dominant as personalities, and who in fact made me feel "submissive energy" around them due to that, but in my experience, unless someone is into the dynamic of D/s, they are going to think it is weird that you want them to dominate you, or even resent it, or feel "guilty" if they think it's "wrong" and they try it, and decide it's not for them.

I know my husband did - he didn't have a Dom bone in his body, and while, being a Switch, I do have a "Domme" side, at the time, I was mostly in "submissive mode", simply because (I think partly anyway) I never, ever, ever felt "Dommed" by him - at all (if that makes any sense, which it might not).

Maybe I was being a 'lil "passive aggressive" about my "needs", but they were screaming, and he didn't seem to care, but we had other problems, too, so maybe that wasn't it altogether, I dunno - 

I suppose I could have gotten into "Domme" mode, but at the time, I resented he wasn't even willing to try being Dominant I guess (because we had discussed it, more than once, and he just said "No", so I figured he wouldn't like being actively a male submissive either, since he seemed to think the whole bdsm "area" was weird and "sick"). I did give a fair shot to trying to "convert" him, and it just plain did not work.

He just plain wasn't interested in  interacting w/me that way at all, and I eventually felt like I was sort of "starving"...even though I did lots of "service oriented" stuff for him, and enjoyed that part. I didn't ever feel any "Dominant energy" coming from him. It wasn't his fault - he just wasn't "wired" like that, I guess.

I can feel submissive I the sense of being a "helper" type of person most all of the time, around almost anyone, but it does take someone fairly "Dominant" as a personality, to make me feel active "submissive energy" so I'd feel more deeply re: Serving that particular person, or certainly anything "play" or "sexually" oriented.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/14/2007 3:23:48 PM >

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 3:13:23 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

If you identify as submissive, (bdsm needs aside, unless they are tied in with your submissive nature, which is something that someone may bring to light here) then why would it matter if your "guy" or "gal" were dom or not?

Greetings
 
It does not matter to me. Even without the fancy lables, I would still be submissive to Master, I would still be submissive to the rest of the males I come into contact with in real life, etc, etc.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 3:44:09 PM   
ownedkitten


Posts: 200
Joined: 4/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

Greetings
 
It does not matter to me. Even without the fancy lables, I would still be submissive to Master, I would still be submissive to the rest of the males I come into contact with in real life, etc, etc.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa


*nods*  I feel much the same way regarding my own submission.


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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:01:31 PM   
amiciaN


Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		As someone who is submissive by nature, I unconsciously tried 'submitting' to my ex with disasterous results.  When a submissive person behaves submissively towards a person who is not dominant, that person often reacts very negatively towards the submissive person.  Attempts to stop verbal abuse by submissive behavior only brought further abuse.  Attempts to please (or appease) by simply asking what he wanted for dinner led to arguments and statements such as "Can't you make a f*cking decision?"  Acting in a submissive manner towards family and friends led to being taken advantage of because I did not set healthy boundaries in those relationships.  "Submit to one, not everyone."  For me, it is not submission until it accepted and acknowleged as such and it is in submission that I am fulfilled, not by merely behaving in a submissive manner. 

Also bear in mind that behaving submissively towards someone who does not desire it or ask for it is fundementally nonconsensual.

I'm not sure I made myself clear, but it's the best I can explain it.  It is only my opinon anyway and ymmv.


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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:13:37 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

For me it is the balance, if I am submitting to someone that is not dominant then I am not really submitting at all. Hows that for short n simple?


Why though?  i think you are submitting but you're just not getting a need met in return and this is what i mean to understand further about submission.  Maybe you could further explain, perhaps i will underatnd better your position.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:20:07 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

In order for me to feel fulfilled, I need someone to enjoy my submission. And to be perfectly honest, I like some of the pomp and circumstance that the lifestyle brings out in people. If I were with a vanilla partner, and I can only speculate here, but I doubt I would be enjoying the company of others in the lifestyle. I enjoy the community, that I doubt I would be a part of if I was with a vanilla partner.
 
On a more personal note about my own submissive nature, I want my submission to be recognized for what it is. Maybe that's selfish, but it's me. And, from a certain standpoint I need the scenes in order to be fulfilled, as well. Sure, they are icing on the cake...but what's a good cake without icing?


So someone enjoying your submission and ritual are important to you.  You also like the social aspect of being part of a community of like minded people. Also getting recognized for what you do and scening (i am supposing you mean bdsm play here, if not let me know).  i can see how a vanilla could fulfill part of those requirements (getting recognized for the things you do, services you provide) but definately not others such as ritual and social support. Thanks for the imput.


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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:28:05 PM   
spanklette


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Joined: 2/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears


So someone enjoying your submission and ritual are important to you.  You also like the social aspect of being part of a community of like minded people. Also getting recognized for what you do and scening (i am supposing you mean bdsm play here, if not let me know).  i can see how a vanilla could fulfill part of those requirements (getting recognized for the things you do, services you provide) but definately not others such as ritual and social support. Thanks for the imput.



By recognition...I mean it in the sense that He recognizes what I offer and willingly takes control. So, no, not particularly in a scene, but in everything.
 
And, I suppose someone who is vanilla could recognize my submission, but I think it's imprtant that He realizes my motivation, as well. He's able to effectively deal with any roadblocks because He has all the necessary information about what makes me tick.
 
But, for the rest, you got my drift.

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~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:29:14 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

It's all about the P in TPE. Power. If he isn't Dominanting me then I am not submitting to him. I am not bending to his will. He is not in control of me. I need to surrender, totally, and I need to strive to do so. I'm not new to the lifestyle but I'm just now figuring a lot of this out with Master's guidance.

I need a man who knows what he's doing to me, does it even when I don't want it or understand it, and does it with positive goals in mind, and I'm going through this right now.

I'm out of control of my own emotions and am in AWE that Master knows exactly what he's doing and how to most effectively get me where I need to be. I respect it. I mean ... man ... I ~respect~ it. I'm scared, out of control of my own emotions, but also in an interesting state of peace and comfort total trust.

Can't get that in a vanilla cone.


Your submissive needs are centered around being actively controlled (dominated) by someone.  You also enjoy an certain amout of "force" for lack of a better word. You also need someone to help you to control your emotions and to mold you to fit their needs.  There are very controlling vanilla men out there but i can see where a lot wouldn't be comfortable taking on this much responsibility for someone elses life - generally controlling men (vanilla) do it for their own selfish needs and care not how their partners are doing emotionally either. A dom would take more responsibility for his charge.  Thank you for your input.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:30:39 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		by the way - i am summing up what you all are saying not to put words into your mouth, but rather to reiterate back whats being said as i interpret it. If i am off the mark please by all means further clarify. 

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:34:23 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
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Status: offline 		I could probably have a good relationship with someone who wanted a 1950s type relationship but other than that was vanilla. Probably. The problem is finding someone like that who is truly able to do that in this day and age. It is easy to find someone who wants that kind of control who is actually domineering rather than dominant. The problem with submitting to a domineering person is that they will keep pushing until they are abusive rather than dominant. BTDT won't do it again.

Finding someone whose energy complements mine will work better for me in the end. It's that energy exchange/power exchange that makes a good relationship click into place.

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RE: Submissive in many contexts - 4/14/2007 6:36:13 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
my question is this: If you identify as submissive, (bdsm needs aside, unless they are tied in with your submissive nature, which is something that someone may bring to light here) then why would it matter if your "guy" or "gal" were dom or not? 
 

Because I need someone who knows precisely what they want, isn’t afraid to use many means (outright dominance, seduction, or manipulation) to get it from me.  I don’t believe in submitting to a chair, I need to know that they are actively dominating me and responding to and flourishing in an environment where I am submitting to them.  

quote:


What i want to understand is why does submission have to necessarily have to rely on dominance to work? 
 

I believe that dominance feeds submission, and vice versa.  

quote:


What is it that a dominant does to make your submission work or feel more validating for you? 
 

My owner is himself – the benevolent dictator of me.  Its not a function of validation of submission, but rather of feeding it and also enjoying and feeding off of the submission.  

And quite frankly as much as at the moment it may suck, I need someone who isn’t afraid to get or take what they want, even if its something I don’t want.  I do not believe that a non-dominant is capable of doing that, rather they would lean towards negotiation or just not doing it in order to not rock the boat.  

quote:


If you met and fell madly in love with a vanilla, couldn't you just quietly go along being submissive to him without anything back as far as active dominance? 
 

I can’t see myself falling in love with a non-dominant, I’m just not attracted to that.  And I’m not one of those fall in love at first glance people, it really does take me time.  

quote:


Submission, to be fulfilling,  needs something more then just submitting your will to another. 


I’m entirely comfortable having needs and not forcing myself to be attracted to non-dominants.  

C~

Edited to adjust for wonky formatting.


< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 4/14/2007 6:38:10 PM >

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