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RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/15/2007 9:38:16 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Many times, as you say, I'd get madder about it, but it comes usually from such a pathetic place, IMO, that I don't wanna waste my energy tit-for-tatting w/them. It was just this one person (although there have occasionally been others)- and I agree totallly w/what you said, as far as dealing w/them, Sinergy.

- Susan

I learned a long time ago, SusanofO, that I was 100% responsible for my emotions. This is not synonymous with being in control of my emotions. This is simply that what emotions I feel, and what I do with those emotions, is 100% mine and mine alone.

For me, there was a truly liberating aspect to this. Gee, this is my emotion, why the hell am I letting this cretin affect me. Then I got to the "if this person knows I am pissed off, I have lost control" state of mind. After a while, I started to discover that people could not piss me off. Was that ever liberating.

I would suggest you not view it as a way of getting back at them. This would mean, to me, that this person was somehow relevant. I view it more as an "its my world" sort of thing. Since its my world, I can dub these cretins irrelevant.

And it becomes all good.

Hope this helps.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 21

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/15/2007 9:48:39 PM

ExSteelAgain

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From: Georgia
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Yep, to that Sinergy. A few years ago I had someone important in my career say something derogatory to me that I didn't quite hear due to others around talking and so on. Since, I didn't hear him, I wasn't affected and stayed really calm and even made a few witty comments even though I had a vague feeling he had said something uncalled for. I saw this superior change as I stayed cool. Later a coworker in my group complimented me on handling the asshole so well. From that day on, I decided that I would make like I didn't hear unwarranted unkind words and keep my emotions in check. It works.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 4/15/2007 9:49:49 PM >

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 22

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/15/2007 9:51:11 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Yep, to that Sinergy. A few years ago I had someone important in my career say something derogatory to me that I didn't quite hear due to others around talking and so on. Since, I didn't hear him, I wasn't affected and stayed really calm and even made a few witty comments even though I had a vague feeling he had said something uncalled for. I saw this superior change as I stayed cool. Later a coworker in my group complimented me on handling the asshole so well. From that day on, I decided that I would make like I didn't hear unwarranted unkind words and keep my emotions in check. It works.

Good call.

The only point I would make comes from a lifetime playing games. It is important to "hear" everything; it might be of use later.

It is letting what you hear alter your emotional state that causes problems...

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 23

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/15/2007 9:53:13 PM

SusanofO

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Well yeah. How small does somebody need to feel to begin, with to debate such a little thing as the outfit someone is wearing in a demeaning way, and to their face? no less (and this gal is not ugly, and has a nice wardrobe herself. It is baffling, IMO). I have better things to do than let it eat me up.
I've seen her do this to other people, too, not just me.

We have a mutual male acquaintance, and she never of course does this kind of thing to him (she preys on other females only, in that regard) - but he did tell her he thought it was kind of nasty of her to be doing.

She feigned shock, and claimed to him that she "didn't realize some people just didn't appreciate "helpful feed-back" Hahaha. He just said to her then: "KK, that is BS, and you know it. Grow up."

She dropped the topic (but she still does this stuff, though less often. I think it is congenital, or something. Anyway, good advice and I will try to follow it (I will).

Becoming suddenly "hard of hearing" is not a bad idea, as a response.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/15/2007 10:04:38 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 24

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/15/2007 10:05:03 PM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
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Okay, to get back on track...... would a dominant that uses "fear" or the threat of release to control their sub/slave or to avoid having to deal with relationship issues be acting in a passive aggressive manner?

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)

Post #: 25

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/15/2007 10:08:30 PM

SusanofO

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BRNaughtyAngel: Hell yes!, IMO. That is totally out of line, and meant to provoke nothing but fear, and shows, IMO, a lack of willingness to talk about some "issue", or any real communication skills.

I think the possibility of "release" is more or less a "given" as far as the known structure of the D/s relationship anyway (or any relationship, for that matter), it isn't as if he needs to announce this as a possibility, is it?

I would say you'd much, much rather have an opportunity to discuss what is bothering you, and see what happens.

I realize that in this case, it is too late for that, but that is what I'd try anyway, if it happens in the future.

If he refused to do that altogether then -
I'd tell him I hope to God he means exactly that, because you may just take him up on it, and it sure would be unfortunate, for him to lose you over something stupid, that didn't really matter, wouldn't it?

Maybe the subject in question is something that really really matters to him (or you), in which case, maybe a long discussion is in order, but threatening release strikes me as un-necesssarily threatening, as an instant-rebuttal kind of tactic, for dealing with a submissive.

I guess I am not that submissive, when it comes to dealing with what I basically view as "game-playing", when we are speaking of consequences of that magnitude.
Where are his communication skills? Why doesn't he want to discuss the subject?
Yeah, there are consequences, I guess. One of those, is just not having you in his life. Maybe he is the one, who also needs to decide if he can live with those consequences, not just you.

Maybe I am not a "twue submissive" (and I am actually a Switch. But, I think that is beside the point).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/15/2007 10:31:40 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)

Post #: 26

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/15/2007 10:39:45 PM

aldompdx

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BRNaughtyAngel, EXCELLENT post!

This is about people, not just dom or sub. And, it just goes to show how important self awareness is. It allows one to exercise self will and free choice over how they feel.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 27

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 4:54:12 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain, I decided that I would make like I didn't hear unwarranted unkind words and keep my emotions in check. It works.

awesome post ES, i learned something very valuable this year...."its none of my business what any one thinks of me"

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Post #: 28

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 5:01:19 AM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
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I was very passive aggressive and I am sure there are things I haven't yet rooted out. I was given the name of a therapist who was not only really good, he was also a perfect "fit" for me which is an element of therapy many people are afraid to push for. You don't like someone, find another, you ARE paying after all.

Nobody laugh, but I seriously used to have trouble asking for the REAL things I needed. I recognize being cared for/loved through being touched and if I don't get enough, I don't feel that someone cares for me. I used to keep a mental checklist of does she/doesn't she according to how much a woman and then later a submissive gave me physical affection. If something made me expose being vulnerable, that was another thing that was hard for me. Like I just needed to hear some kind words because I was feeling blue or that I just needed some quiet sensual time with her because I was feeling needy. Nope, couldn't do that in the past although with the help of therapy and a lot of work on my own I can do that quite easily now.

When it got to much I would pick a fight, hurl back 8,000 different old arguments, tear her down, make her insecure, and then start getting emotionally mean. Oh I was just a little bundle of fun. I am much MUCH better now. Frankly, living with my mother this past year has been another "growth opportunity" as this is the font of that behavior and learning to NOT do that with my mother has been hard but not only have I done that, I have stayed calm while she is doing that to me and helped HER move past some, although FAR from all of her behavior.

So yeah, I am a bit familiar with this sick fucked up mode of behavior.

Oh and to directly answer your question, using fear to keep someone in line is abusive and is passive aggressive.

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 29

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 5:05:49 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

quote:

Okay, to get back on track...... would a dominant that uses "fear" or the threat of release to control their sub/slave or to avoid having to deal with relationship issues be acting in a passive aggressive manner?

oh yes, passive aggressiveness is a personality disorder.....the passive aggressive person can not deal with things courageously and in an up front lay it on the table sort of way....

there are many doms that have the my way or the highway element to thier dominance....i dont think much of this level of rigidity.

but i do see how it can be effective in a d/s relationship that is based more on fear.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 30

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 5:06:15 AM

SusanofO

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Great post, SimplyMichael, and good to hear from the other POV and the why, as far as where it can truly sometimes come from. If I've been passive-aggressive (and I have, on occasion), it's usually because I've been afraid to be direct with the other person.

And sometimes, it wasn't that person, but someone else, who originally conditioned the behavior, as something I considered a legit response. I sometimes forget the other person has their reasons why they do it, because it just can sometimes make me mad (but I get it's better to ignore it, if possible, in that case). Or, try a reasonable discussion, instead.

I agree w/crouching tigress, that as a relational tactic to "enhance" a D/s relationship, it is going to have definite draw-backs, and probably inhibit commnication and increase frustration. I suppose it "works". Sort of like the Chinese water torture "works" to change someone's POV (maybe a bad analogy).

But, IMO, it's the denizen of those who just either 1) Don't want to bother or 2) Really believe the potential (maybe likely) effects of it don't or shouldn't matter ('cuz they are the Dom, right?).

If someone doesn't care if the sub leaves (or might), or is very unhappy, I guess that's fine, then.

Also, if the sub isn't aware what it is the Dom is doing, they could be teaching their sub to do it, too, and that it is okay (if they do it a lot), and not even realize that (or maybe they do and just don't care). I am not sure how responsible that would be for a Dom to do.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/16/2007 5:42:06 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 31

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 5:53:24 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Nobody laugh, but I seriously used to have trouble asking for the REAL things I needed. I recognize being cared for/loved through being touched and if I don't get enough, I don't feel that someone cares for me. I used to keep a mental checklist of does she/doesn't she according to how much a woman and then later a submissive gave me physical affection. If something made me expose being vulnerable, that was another thing that was hard for me. Like I just needed to hear some kind words because I was feeling blue or that I just needed some quiet sensual time with her because I was feeling needy. Nope, couldn't do that in the past although with the help of therapy and a lot of work on my own I can do that quite easily now.

Thank you for sharing something so deeply personal Michael. I am someone who needs to touch and to be touched to show I care for someone and to know they care for me. It was very difficult for me to ask for anything in the beginning, but I learned to do it. I had to use my journals to ask for things, because I didn't feel comfortable enough to vocalize it most of the time, but at least I did ask......... not that it did any good.

But this trait I listed in my opening post was what I was met with over the entire 5 months:

*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.

Talk about confusing and frustrating! Those two words were the best descriptors of that situation and it never changed.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 32

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 6:19:22 AM

KnightofMists

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being passive aggressive has never been an issue in my relationships. I would say it more an issue of being too demanding and direct in my thoughts that has been the issue. Sometimes calling a spade a spade is just not what a person wants to hear or is willing to hear.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)

Post #: 33

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 6:24:52 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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Good morning KNIGHT,I have always been one to call a spade a spade and let the chips fall where the may,however as I grow older and with a great woman sharing my life I have chilled a little but not much.One should call it as he/her sees it,its part of staying true to yourself and your beliefs...as always just the views of this ol" master

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

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Post #: 34

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 6:26:24 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

being passive aggressive has never been an issue in my relationships. I would say it more an issue of being too demanding and direct in my thoughts that has been the issue. Sometimes calling a spade a spade is just not what a person wants to hear or is willing to hear.

Oh yes, I have been around people like you KOM. I have been taken aback by their directness, I suppose because it's so totally opposite to my own nature.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 35

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 7:37:28 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
oh yes, passive aggressiveness is a personality disorder.....the passive aggressive person can not deal with things courageously and in an up front lay it on the table sort of way...

Not in and of itself. Most people who act passively aggressive are just trying to cope and control- they don't have a personality disorder.

As for the fear element- yes that CAN be a form of PA- but more often it's shame/guilt/coercion which gets used.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 36

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 7:44:47 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I have never been with a passive aggressive person. I have been with a couple of out right aggressive men, but never a passive aggressive one. I tend to be turned off by passive aggressiveness, and PA men might get frustrated with my usual ability to take things said at face value.

I have a PA sister that drives my mom and I nuts. I am very direct in what I have to say, perhaps too much so for the tastes of many people. I just do not have the energy to try to manipulate people this way. Since my Daddy has been around some world class PA people, I doubt he would tolerate this from me very well...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)

Post #: 37

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 7:55:12 AM

ownedgirlie

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Hi BRNAngel,

Wow, the P/A type. This was my ex-husband and the traits you listed made me shudder. I used to wonder why, being submissive, I had such a hard time dealing with his control over me. But it was always so confusing!! Sinergy hit the nail on the head, obviously (and unfortunately) being all too familiar with passive-aggressiveness. My ex would create chaos and confusion - ever the misunderstood person. I was the problem for misunderstanding the confusion he laid out. He was the victim. I was the bad guy, and quite criticized for it. To the point were, as Sinergy pointed out, you just feel small and incapable. 20 years of allowing that in your world and wow, it's a miracle you can function.

This played a huge role in that failed relationship, BRNAngel. My part is that I allowed it to happen. He was so convincing in his arguments, and so unbending in his "principles," I thought he was always right. Then of course he never admitted to being wrong. That list you posted described him - all of it. A relationship with this type of person, particularly one who has so perfected it, can be dangerous and destructive, for sure.

I try to recognize those traits in other people. I can not engage in relationships of any depth with those who are that way, not even friendships. They are unhealthy and the land of confusion where those relationships bring me brings up too much raw pain which I am still dealing with. My P/A husband was not only unwilling to work on changing such behavior, but after extensive marriage counseling, was unwilling to admit there was anything wrong with his behavior in the first place. I'd sit there week after week watching him argue with therapist after therapist, while they all told him the same thing - which was everything I had been trying to express to him for years. If nothing else, this validated my own feelings. I no longer felt wrong for breathing his air, and I left.

As for P/A vs. bluntness and directness, it has been my experience that a person can be both. My ex was this way, extremely blunt and cruel in his words while creating that doubt and confusion in the other person's mind, all to the tune of "Well you're not understanding and don't want to hear what I have to say. Which is too bad because if you saw it my way we could fix this issue." This is not to say the two automatically go hand in hand, but they can.

It was my experience with P/A'ness that the world revovles around the P/A'er, the P/A'er is always right, and nobody else understands him/her. As Phil Collins said, "Can't you see this is a land of confusion."

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)

Post #: 38

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 8:00:21 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
It was my experience with P/A'ness that the world revovles around the P/A'er, the P/A'er is always right, and nobody else understands him/her. As Phil Collins said, "Can't you see this is a land of confusion."

Someone's got Genesis on her mind ;)

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 39

RE: Passive Aggressive Dominants? - 4/16/2007 9:46:02 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
It was my experience with P/A'ness that the world revovles around the P/A'er, the P/A'er is always right, and nobody else understands him/her. As Phil Collins said, "Can't you see this is a land of confusion."

Thank you for sharing all of this owned. I feel like I have just discovered some hidden artifact of information! Silly, I know, but it's like a lightbulb

going off and finally seeing something for what it really is and not through hope-filled eyes.

As for the "land of confusion", wow are you ever right about that!! And I'm just happy that you were able to get rid of that piece of real estate in your land of confusion, and find happiness.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 40

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