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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:12:54 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		The statistic that I obtained from the FBI is that one percent of gun crimes are committed by legal gun owners.  The VAST majority of crimes committed with guns involve stolen guns bought on the black market.  Both the Colombine shooting and Jonesboro, Ar. shooting were committed by kids who stole guns from their relatitives which has been pretty much endemic to school shootings.

(in reply to Aileen68)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:22:22 PM   
HutchGarahl


Posts: 562
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		Just because someone may have been armed doesn't mean they would have been able to get the shooter before he got loads of others. His reaction might not have been fast enough...though there is still the chance if one was, then they could have shot the kid before too many got hurt. Noone can tell for sure how it would have went.

Taking guns from people does not equal gun control. Gun control is learning how to use, when to use and how to react to different circumstances. I am licensed to carry concealed, and do so every day. I have several firearms in my home. Do I hide them when others come around or if my child/ren or grandchild is here? No. I teach them.

There are those who are continually trying to remove our gun rights because they feel it's safer and better on guncontrol. Instead of taking our guns...teach people. Stop and think about it...they take the guns...criminals will still get them no matter what. How will law abiding people protect themselves now against breakings?

The law can take my guns when and only when they can pry them from my cold dead hands.

(in reply to Aileen68)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:24:25 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I think if just 1 student who was a lisensed gunowner was in that building things would have turned out differently!

I doubt it.  Things might have, but it's far more likey that they wouldn't have. 

Stef, and what leads you to that conclusion?

Because I'm not so naive to think the mere presence of a single handgun would have made things turn out differently.  It's a big campus and the incidents took place in different areas of the campus a couple of hours apart.  Even if the hypothetical gunowner in question was in the right place at the right time, there's no guarantee they would have done anything to help the situation.  For someone who has only shot paper targets and has no stress fire training (which is probably about 99% of most CCW holders,) that's a huge mountain of fear to overcome.  In an environment full of students, with adrenaline surging through their system, the likelihood that they would even hit what they were aiming at isn't all that high.  Bystanders would likely be more at risk than the intended target.

quote:

Boy, they're taking an awful long time to release the shooter's name!
I wonder why that is?

The fact that his body had no ID on it might be slowing down their identification attempts.

~stef

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:27:41 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Does this prove that the USA just isn't ready for Democracy? Do we need a Saddam Hussein to keep us in line...


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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:29:03 PM   
Stranger1


Posts: 219
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		Evil seems to have few boundaries.............my thoughts and prayers go out to the bereaved familes and survivors.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:33:48 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		One licensed to carry student probably wouldn't have changed a thing.  But if they were all licensed to carry then that would have been a different story, wouldn't it?  If the students there were known to be gun carriers, the shooter would have chosen a different campus.  I believe that to be true because the shooter chose to shoot himself rather than be shot by the police if he confronted them.  The shooter would have chosen a different campus rather than be shot by someone else.

All of this conjecture about gun control is, of course, predictable.  The gun control types use every shooting to advance their cause.  Since 99% of legal gun owners do not commit crimes, gun control would be, of course, meaningless.  This may sound shocking but gun control would probably not be adhered to by criminals.  In the next few days, we'll find out who this shooter is, whether he was a legal gun owner or not, what his motivation was, what his mental health was, etc.  

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:35:12 PM   
theFirewithin


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Status: offline 		Hello All,

Other possible reasons for the slow release as to the identification of the gunman:

1.  It is reported there he carried no form of ID.
2.  It is also reported that he turned the gun on himself with *this has not been confirmed* a self-inflicted wound to the head thereby making quick identification that much harder.
3.  Another reason could be that Virginia Tech is an international school.  There have been reports that the gunman may have been Asian therefore I would imagine the official authorities are going out of their way to make sure that once identified, his family would be notified prior to global news making his identity known.

Just a few ideas as to why we don't have more information yet.
thefirewithin

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:37:22 PM   
SEVADom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom

And while I agree that one student carrying might well not have made a difference (that high a body count doesn't come from random shots; there was aiming going on), if there had been several students carrying (likely among 30+ victims), the likelihood of a lower body count would rise considerably.



You do realise this is bullshit? Every time there is one of these shootings people say if the victims were armed it would be different. There is enough psychological research to suggest people could be armed to the teeth but will not respond.

What really needs to be asked, what is the underlying problem in society that prompts these types of incidents. Why can someone so disconnected from reality get a weapon and enough ammo to do this.

Of course, these questions are asked every time an incident like this happens but nothing is ever done about it. It is just a matter of waiting for the next event and no matter how much the victims are armed, it won't change anything.


I gather you've drunk the HCI coolaid. Review incident reports out of Israel to see how it's done. Teachers and civilians carry submachine guns; some a**hole threatens their flock/dinner companions, and *he* gets mowed down, often before he gets to pull the trigger once. Real-world history trumps idiot studies. It works; the studies you refer to are rather biased ...

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:40:50 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
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Status: offline 		People all handle stressful situations differently.  There will always be the ones that completely freak out and there will always be some that keep their shit together.  All you would need is one person that keeps it together with a gun and he or she could take the idiot out.

(in reply to SEVADom)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:43:52 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom

I gather you've drunk the HCI coolaid. Review incident reports out of Israel to see how it's done. Teachers and civilians carry submachine guns; some a**hole threatens their flock/dinner companions, and *he* gets mowed down, often before he gets to pull the trigger once. Real-world history trumps idiot studies. It works; the studies you refer to are rather biased ...



Er.. I think Israel is in a permanent state of war, I never realised Virginia was too.

Real history states that the US has had 29 of such incidents and somehow people don't seem to learn to arm themsleves to the teeth and shoot the bastards that do this sort of thing. Real world history states that intelligence trumps dumb redneck theories. Insisting more guns are the solution is like repeatedly trying to solve the same problem with the solution or is that the definition of madness?

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:44:26 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I'm waiting to hear back the list.  Kinda glad I decided to go to VCU instead of VT!  But.. well, I have a lot of friends and acquatances that go to VT.  My little brother spends a fair amount of time there, and I've been unable to get him to answer his cell since I heard the news.  I'm having to accept the very real possibility that this news means (several) someone(s) may be among the dead and wounded.

I skipped Physics today.  Not feeling so great.  'pose I'm sick or something, probably just the stress of having to write that 12-page paper tonight.  Exams are approaching, and we're all too aware we're human right now, prone to mistakes and short comings.  This only adds mortality to our realizations.

Right now, the best that can really be done is to comfort the family and friends of the dead, help to ease the nerves of those who were more immediate in witnessing the event, and hope that the hospitals with the wounded are able to save as many as possible with as great a quality of life as can be afforded.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:47:21 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
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Status: offline 		The math and a little common sense tells me that ONE CCW permit would not likely have been a big difference and the idea of arming all of them is short sighted at best. (majority of students would be too young to qualify for a permit 18-20).
To have made any difference the permitted person would have had to have been on the same floor or at least in the same building, eliminating a large part of the student body. After that the training and luck and so many possible things come into play.
Might it have changed the outcome? Sure it MIGHT have or it might not have changed anything other than adding a returned fire shot at the guy that misses. Might have changed who got shot and who didn't leaving the end numbers exactly the same.

Untill we get a bit more information about why the moron chose the building he chose speculation is weak at best as to what could have prevented it.

I'm all for CCW permits with training and background checks, but I refuse to use this incident to make a case for them with no good information about what exactly happened. (chances are too good that information as it comes out will poke holes in the arguments.)



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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:49:43 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		Arming everyone is just as effective a solution as is disarming legal gun owners. Neither would work.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:56:08 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Does this prove that the USA just isn't ready for Democracy? Do we need a Saddam Hussein to keep us in line...




What are you talking about "ready for democracy?  You must be a commie then?

AN UNDERSTATEMENT:  THE FOUNDING FATHERS HATED DEMOCRACY

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

"And to the Republic for which it stands"

So forgotten that I have found Myself trying to remind people of that for a few years now.


you may want to give this thread a read: 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_957340/tm.htm

which addresses what you just said, and feel free to comment of course.






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 4:56:25 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The solution is not just putting in more guns it is putting guns in the right hands, at least 3 of those 29 cases in the US were stopped by an armed civilian. One a principal who ran to his car off campus to retrieve his pistol, One an off duty cop who also had to run to his car to get his pistol (guns were not permittted in the classrooms even for off duty cops on that campus), and one a CWP holder driving by right place right time, in those 3 cases the criminal dropped their weapon when challenged by an armed civilian.

Does that PROVE the case for arming everyone? No. But it does prove that armed civilians CAN in some cases stop these events from being worse.

(in reply to Aileen68)
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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 5:10:49 PM   
SEVADom


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEVADom

I gather you've drunk the HCI coolaid. Review incident reports out of Israel to see how it's done. Teachers and civilians carry submachine guns; some a**hole threatens their flock/dinner companions, and *he* gets mowed down, often before he gets to pull the trigger once. Real-world history trumps idiot studies. It works; the studies you refer to are rather biased ...



Er.. I think Israel is in a permanent state of war, I never realised Virginia was too.

Real history states that the US has had 29 of such incidents and somehow people don't seem to learn to arm themsleves to the teeth and shoot the bastards that do this sort of thing. Real world history states that intelligence trumps dumb redneck theories. Insisting more guns are the solution is like repeatedly trying to solve the same problem with the solution or is that the definition of madness?


I was referring to actual occurrences and demonstrably successful prevention of terrorist incidents, not a theory. No matter what the motivation, this type of incident is essentially a terrorist event, an armed attack on defenseless civilians. And by and large, people here -- especially those licensed to carry -- are law-abiding (they don't get licenses if they aren't!) and follow laws that deny them permission to arm themselves as I suggest -- to the teeth if necessary. Check the locations of those 29 incidents, and see how many of them are in ostensibly "gun-free" zones ... like schools. The answer is, the vast majority of them. The good guys leave their guns at home (if they have them at all). The bad guys have a field day, usually with guns acquired and certainly carried in violation of existing laws. New laws would be similarly violated. Safety through legislation is an illusion.

The only "theory" here is that it's practical to somehow determine and prevent some kind of root cause, thus preventing the incidents. Even if such were plausible (which I rather doubt), it's likely that the cause/solution is related to socialization, a decades-long process that has *already* molded the current U.S. population. To change it and have effect would take more decades ... even if we knew exactly what to change -- which we don't. Video games? Toilet training? Old war movies? Not enough naps in kindergarten? Let's be specific here -- what do you recommend? Take away the illegal guns? Make shooting innocents against the law? Oh wait, both are already illegal. Meanwhile, we'll have incidents.

And consider this. We (the entire country) *are* in a state of war. The fact that at present most of it is being fought in the Middle East puts it conveniently out of direct sight. However, if our enemies ever figure out that a tiny number of strategically placed killers can paralyse the country (as Malvo did the mid-Atlantic states a few years ago, no nukes or WMD's required), we will have more local incidents. And neither police nor the military will be able to stop them; good as they are, the good guys can't be everywhere. Sadly, they usually only get to clean up the mess.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 5:12:41 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Er.. I think Israel is in a permanent state of war, I never realised Virginia was too.

Real history states that the US has had 29 of such incidents and somehow people don't seem to learn to arm themsleves to the teeth and shoot the bastards that do this sort of thing. Real world history states that intelligence trumps dumb redneck theories. Insisting more guns are the solution is like repeatedly trying to solve the same problem with the solution or is that the definition of madness?


That is being totally unfair, because we never had this kind of thing in the early history of this country except from the mobsters blasting each other.   We have our own history to go by and that was when machine guns were legal here!

Machine were made illegal because the mobsters used them against cops when cops tried to arrest them.

These kinds of problems started once banning guns started!  It created a fearful country of cowards praying for the gov to p[rotect them and only a total idiot would fall for that, (sorry america), so now we have cowards cowering rather than those who would stand up and fight.

As long as we are a nation of cowards this will happen over and over.

Someone said he committed suicide, yep, didnt have to worry about suffering now did he?   Thats what its about do the crime and a quick instant death.

Now if he had to worry about someone with a gun from every nook and cranny on every flank at the same time and getting wounded bad enough that he could not take his own life with the thought of suffering and prison and the electric chair that would have made him think twice.

With a whole crowd of gun carriers surrounding him, one person could have easily got a shot off to waste his ass.

but you know no one had any guns because their no gun laws protect them.  right?

remember:  gun control, a 1/2 group at 300 yards

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 5:14:39 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
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Status: offline 		Latest reports state that the shooter was a Chinese national on a student visa.... and they just grabbed another "person of interest" related to the first shooting.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 5:27:25 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
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Status: offline 		Drudge says that the shooter was having a fight with his girlfriend because he believed she was cheating on him. An advisor was then called to the dorm room. The shooter than shot both the girlfriend and advisor. He then went on a shooting spree before shooting himself in the face.

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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/16/2007 5:34:24 PM   
SEVADom


Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2006
Status: offline 		I would like to clarify something. Virginia issues concealed carry permits. If you're at least 21 and not a felon (and probably a couple of other limitations), you can take a class and get a permit to carry a concealed handgun. I have one; it's straightforward. The rules preventing anyone carrying on the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg were solely those of the University -- not laws. Any concealed carry permit holder carrying there would have only been in violation of the school's rules. But as I mentioned, the penalty for violating them (if caught) was the most severe the University could impose -- expulsion or firing, depending on the individual.

And yes, in this case it's likely that a high percentage of the victims would not have been old enough to carry legally. But examine that statement; that means that some of them almost certainly could have -- and, presumably, most staff and teachers are 21 or over?

It's an academic discussion (no pun intended); I believe that the current culture within most US universities (I can't speak specifically for Virginia Tech) is such that even were people allowed to carry, few would.

< Message edited by SEVADom -- 4/16/2007 5:38:52 PM >

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