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VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 4:49:23 AM   
farglebargle


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Since the United States invasion and subsequent failed occupation, Iraqis have been struggling to deal with the kind of violence we experienced just the other day.

BUT IN IRAQ, IT HAPPENS EVERY DAMN DAY.

So, you might understand why the world doesn't give a shit about your grief.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 9:16:54 AM   
daddysprop247


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pretty much. while i'm saddened by what happened at VA Tech, when i hear it referred to again and again as "the worst shooting incident in U.S. history", it just makes me think of the people in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan who live with violence on this scale and far far greater every single day of their lives. just going to the store to get some bread and rice they face a very real danger of being blown up, shot, etc. in Iraq you'd be hard pressed to find a single person who hasn't lost a mother, father, child, husband or wife due to Bush's "war on terror." so yeah, if i were in their place i wouldn't have much sympathy for us either.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 9:19:53 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
So, you might understand why the world doesn't give a shit about your grief.




You're not the whole world, farglebargle.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 9:26:37 AM   
farglebargle


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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AnZ17_j5B1jywKTVzfqqNYFvaA8F

4 bombs kill 164 people in Baghdad

By SINAN SALAHEDDIN, Associated Press Writer 4 minutes ago

BAGHDAD - Four large bombs exploded in mostly Shiite areas of Baghdad on Wednesday, killing at least 164 people and wounding scores — the deadliest day in the city since the start of the U.S.-Iraqi campaign to pacify the capital two months ago.

The U.S. Defense Department called it "a very bad day in Iraq."

In the deadliest of the attacks, a parked car bomb detonated in a crowd of workers at the Sadriyah market in central Baghdad, killing at least 116 people and wounding 145, said Raad Muhsin, an official at Al-Kindi Hospital where the victims were taken.

...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 9:42:48 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Since the United States invasion and subsequent failed occupation, Iraqis have been struggling to deal with the kind of violence we experienced just the other day.

BUT IN IRAQ, IT HAPPENS EVERY DAMN DAY.

So, you might understand why the world doesn't give a shit about your grief.




Wow, so there can only be one tragedy at a time I guess. Good Point.

Or is it a variance of an eye for an eye thing. You don't care about me so I don't care about you, type thing.

Or is it possible that it is sad that some good people get shot in Iraq and that's tragic, and some good people got shot in Viginia and that's tragic.

And who is exactly, is this "World" you've been talking to?

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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 10:38:14 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Yes but Fargle the VA tech tragedy was the result of the behaviour of one lone deranged nutter, in Iraq there's thousands of the bastards. NO ?

Incidently on Iraq its been reported on the BBC, so it must be true, that after the succesful invasion 300 thousand ex pat Iraqui's returned home, all whistling a happy tune and expecting their life prospects to improve a lot.
To be honest I added the bit about their state of mind.

Did Blair/Bush wreck their hopes or was it the nutters mentioned above ?

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 10:49:09 AM   
farglebargle


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"Yes but Fargle the VA tech tragedy was the result of the behaviour of one lone deranged nutter, in Iraq there's thousands of the bastards. NO ?"

No, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumseld, Powell, et. al. are the people responsible for the tragedy in Iraq.

If they didn't engage in a conspiracy to defraud Congress and The People, depriving them of their role in oversight, then we would not be in this mess.

13. A "false" or "fraudulent" representation is one that is:
(a) made with knowledge that it is untrue;
(b) a half-truth;
(c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or
(d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 11:07:21 AM   
cloudboy


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You make a valid point and I hadn't thought of it that way. Things like the VT shooting would have to happen 200-250 times a year to simulate what's going on in IRAQ.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 4/18/2007 11:08:42 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 11:16:43 AM   
lockedaway


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So what??  We are fighting a war in Iraq that is in large part being funded and fueled by Iran.  Iraq is also in the midsts of a civil war.  Yes, there is going to be harships in times of war especially in the country where the war is being fought.  Fargle's very tired and very boring song about "Bush Lied, Kids Died" and all that other horse sh*t fails to take into account that ALL LEADING DEMOCRATS believed that Saddam had or was attempting to have (which he was) weapons of mass destruction.  Fargle, a card carrying liberal, likes to ignore what his liberal icons said and do his best Code Pink imitation: "Bush Lied, Kids Died".  blah blah blah

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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 11:43:52 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Fargle, a card carrying liberal


When you say that, you show how little attention you've been paying to what I've had to say, but just illustrate your prejudices so clearly, all else you write can be instantly discounted.

If you HAD been paying attention, you would have observed that I'm so Traditionally Conservative, George Bush looks like a Commie. ( e.g. the Federalization of Education via No Child Left Behind and the continuing expansion of the Department of Education ).

Remember when Bush told us all he'd "Restore Honesty and Integrity to the White House"?

Well, what's YOUR problem with holding him accountable for his clear failure?

Aside from that, here's the study guide. Try and pay attention, and if you have any issues with the allegations, please respond to each OVERT ACT using the same indicators, i.e.: Overt Acts A - N )

quote:


10. As employees of the Executive Branch, BUSH, CHENEY, RICE, RUMSFELD, and POWELL were governed by Executive Orders 12674 and 12731. These Orders provide that Executive Branch employees hold their positions as a public trust and that the American people have a right to expect that they will fulfill that trust in accordance with certain ethical standards and principles. These include abiding by the Constitution and laws of the United States, as well as not using their offices to further private goals and interests.

11. Pursuant to the Constitution, their oaths of office, their status as Executive Branch employees, and their presence in the United States, BUSH, CHENEY, RICE, RUMSFELD, and POWELL, and their subordinates and employees, are required to obey Title 18, United States Code, Section 371, which prohibits conspiracies to defraud the United States.

12. As used in Section 371, the term "to defraud the United States" means "to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful government functions by deceit, craft, trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest." The term also means to "impair, obstruct, or defeat the lawful function of any department of government" by the use of "false or fraudulent pretenses or representations."

13. A "false" or "fraudulent" representation is one that is: (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud.

14. Congress is a "department of the United States" within the meaning of Section 371. In addition, hearings regarding funding for military action and authorization to use military force are "lawful functions" of Congress.

15. Accordingly, the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means, and fraudulent representations, including lies, half-truths, material omissions, and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity, while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions regarding authorization to use military force and funding for military action, constitutes interfering with, obstructing, impairing, and defeating a lawful government function of a department of the United States within the meaning of Section 371.

The Conspiracy to Defraud the United States

16. Beginning on or about a date unknown, but no later than August of 2002, and continuing to the present, in the District of Columbia and elsewhere, the defendants,

GEORGE W. BUSH,
RICHARD B. CHENEY,
CONDOLEEZZA RICE,
DONALD M. RUMSFELD, and
COLIN M. POWELL,

and others known and unknown, did knowingly and intentionally conspire to defraud the United States by using deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means, false and fraudulent representations, including ones made without a reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity, and omitting to state material facts necessary to make their representations truthful, fair and accurate, while knowing and intending that their false and fraudulent representations would influence the public and the deliberations of Congress with regard to authorization of a preventive war against Iraq, thereby defeating, obstructing, impairing, and interfering with Congress' lawful functions of overseeing foreign affairs and making appropriations.


skipping over more background, here's the important points.

quote:


63. In furtherance of the above-described conspiracy, the defendants and their coconspirators committed and caused to be committed the following overt acts:

Overt Acts

A. On December 9, 2001, CHENEY announced on NBC's Meet the Press that "it was pretty well confirmed" that lead 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta had met the head of Iraqi intelligence in Prague in April 2001, which statement was, as CHENEY well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, because it was based on a single witness's uncorroborated allegation that had not been fully investigated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

B. On July 15, 2002, POWELL stated on Ted Koppel's Nightline: "What we have consistently said is that the President has no plan on his desk to invade Iraq at the moment, nor has one been presented to him, nor have his advisors come together to put a plan to him," which statement was deliberately false and misleading in that it deceitfully implied the President was not planning an invasion of Iraq when, as POWELL well knew, the President was close to finalizing detailed military plans for such an invasion that he had ordered months previously.

C. On August 26, 2002, CHENEY made numerous false and fraudulent statements including: "Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us," when, as CHENEY well knew, this statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that the IC's then prevailing assessment was that Iraq had neither nuclear weapons nor a reconstituted nuclear weapons program.

D. On September 7, 2002, appearing publicly with Blair, BUSH claimed a recent IAEA report stated that Iraq was "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon" and "I don't know what more evidence we need," which statements were made without basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) the IAEA had not even been present in Iraq since 1998; and (2) the report the IAEA did write in 1998 had concluded there was no indication that Iraq had the physical capacity to produce weapons-usable nuclear material or that it had attempted to obtain such material.

E. On September 8, 2002, on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, RICE asserted that Saddam Hussein was acquiring aluminum tubes that were "only suited" for nuclear centrifuge use, which statement was deliberately false and fraudulent, and made with reckless indifference to the truth in that it omitted to state the following material facts: (1) the U.S. intelligence community was deeply divided about the likely use of the tubes; (2) there were at least fifteen intelligence reports written since April 2001 that cast doubt on the tubes' possible nuclear-related use; and (3) the U.S. Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts had concluded, after analyzing the tubes's specifications and the circumstances of the Iraqis' attempts to procure them, that the aluminum tubes were not well suited for nuclear centrifuge use and were more likely intended for artillery rocket production.

F. On September 8, 2002, RUMSFELD stated on Face the Nation: "Imagine a September 11th, with weapons of mass destruction. It's not three thousand, it's tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children," which statement was deliberately fraudulent and misleading in that it implied without reasonable basis and in direct contradiction to then prevailing intelligence that Saddam Hussein had no operational relationship with al Qaeda and was unlikely to provide weapons to terrorists.

G. On September 19, 2002, RUMSFELD told the Senate Armed Services Committee that "no terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people than the regime of Saddam Hussein," which statement was, as Rumsfeld well knew, made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that: (1) Hussein had not acted aggressively toward the United States since his alleged attempt to assassinate President George H. W. Bush in 1993; (2) Iraq's military forces and equipment were severely debilitated because of UN sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War; (3) the IC's opinion was that Iraq's sponsorship of terrorists was limited to ones whose hostility was directed toward Israel; and (4) Iran, not Iraq, was the most active state sponsor of terrorism.

H. On October 1, 2002, the defendants caused the IC's updated classified National Intelligence Estimate to be delivered to Congress just hours before the beginning of debate on the Authorization to Use Military Force. At the same time, the defendants caused an unclassified "White Paper" to be published which was false and misleading in many respects in that it failed to include qualifying language and dissents that substantially weakened their argument that Iraq posed a serious threat to the United States.

I. On October 7, 2002, in Cincinnati, Ohio, BUSH made numerous deliberately misleading statements to the nation, including stating that in comparison to Iran and North Korea, Iraq posed a uniquely serious threat, which statement BUSH well knew was false and fraudulent in that it omitted to state the material fact that a State Department representative had been informed just three days previously that North Korea had actually already produced nuclear weapons. The defendants continued to conceal this information until after Congress passed the Authorization to Use Military Force against Iraq.

J. Between September 1, 2002, and November 2, 2002, BUSH traveled the country making in excess of thirty congressional-campaign speeches in which he falsely and fraudulently asserted that Iraq was a "serious threat" which required immediate action, when as he well knew, this assertion was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth.

K. In his January 28, 2003 State of the Union address, BUSH announced that the "British have recently learned that Iraq was seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa" which statement was fraudulent and misleading and made with reckless disregard for the truth, in that it falsely implied that the information was true, when the CIA had advised the administration more than once that the allegation was unsupported by available intelligence.

L. In a February 5, 2003, speech to the UN, POWELL falsely implied, without reasonable basis and with reckless disregard for the truth, that, among other things: (1) those who maintained that Iraq was purchasing aluminum tubes for rockets were allied with Saddam Hussein, even though POWELL well knew that both Department of Energy nuclear weapons experts and State Department intelligence analysts had concluded that the tubes were not suited for nuclear centrifuge use; and (2) Iraq had an ongoing cooperative relationship with al Qaeda, when he well knew that no intelligence agency had reached that conclusion.

M. On March 18, 2003, BUSH sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate which asserted that further reliance on diplomatic and peaceful means alone would not either: (1) adequately protect United States national security against the "continuing threat posed by Iraq" or (2) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant UN Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, which statement was made without reasonable basis and with reckless indifference to the truth in that, as BUSH well knew, the U.S. intelligence community had never reported that Iraq posed an urgent threat to the United States and there was no evidence whatsoever to prove that Iraq had either the means or intent to attack the U.S. directly or indirectly. The statement was also false because, as BUSH well knew, the UN weapons inspectors had not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and wanted to continue the inspection process because it was working well.

N. In the same March 18, 2003 letter, BUSH also represented that taking action pursuant to the Resolution was "consistent with continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001," which statement was entirely false and without reasonable basis in that, as BUSH well knew, Iraq had no involvement with al Qaeda or the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 371.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/18/2007 11:50:29 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 11:50:04 AM   
Sanity


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Farglebargle's so far Right that he just LOOKS like he's on the Left, to the untrained eye

That's all

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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 11:51:15 AM   
farglebargle


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T.Y. for the compliment, Sanity

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 11:52:38 AM   
farglebargle


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In other news... I received this via another list, and figured it was illustrative of something important.

quote:


In response to your comment and John Derbyshire's comment about not rushing the gunman I would add that on one of the interviews from students I read, the student said that she and other class mates debated whether or not to barricade the door. If my memory serves she said this went on for quite some time, about 20 minutes. Finally one of the other students got up and shoved the professor's desk against the door. Five minutes later the gunman tried to enter the room, could not, and put two bullets through the door but injured no one.

Do you think this could be another tragic example of people not being having to be responsible for, well anything, anymore?

Ed C



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 12:49:33 PM   
lockedaway


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My God, talk about being irrelevant.  How does posting any of that blather...a load of allegations PROVE anything that you have said?  In my whole post you take one fragment of a sentence and you address it with a load of tripe.  Why?  To make yourself look professional?  Notice you did not address what I said about the icons of the democratic party relying on the same information Bush did regarding WMD and Sadaam.  Your failure to address THAT portion of my post makes you overtly liberal...not conservative.  For the record, I don't consider Bush to be a conservative...he is s wishy-washy moderate.  But let me tell you something, sport, you are going to be having wet dreams about having a wishy-washy moderate in office if a Hillary, Biden or Obama gets elected in '08.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 1:05:35 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
Notice you did not address what I said about the icons of the democratic party relying on the same information Bush did regarding WMD and Sadaam.


Since I do not see a label "A" through "N" indicating what point your are trying to establish as being subject to Reasonable Doubt, I figure you didn't actually read the posting.

I think calling for the TRIAL of Bush et. al. for that Fraud committed in LYING TO CONGRESS about the alleged WMD Threat is all the indication needed of my feelings about "the icons of the democratic party" being defrauded.

If they made bad decisions, it was due to Bush et. al.s PREMEDITATED CHOICE to lie about the information Bush supplied to them, supposedly supporting those decisions.

Nothing in the Constitution or any Amendment give ANYONE in Government service the privilege of lying.

Maybe you go and actually READ what I posted.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/18/2007 1:07:08 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 1:47:00 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Since the United States invasion and subsequent failed occupation, Iraqis have been struggling to deal with the kind of violence we experienced just the other day.

BUT IN IRAQ, IT HAPPENS EVERY DAMN DAY.

So, you might understand why the world doesn't give a shit about your grief.




Why the world would care anyway? The incident is a domestic issue.

As for Iraq, this happends everyday over there because:
1. The population cares more about religious violence than peace.
2. It is an active war zone.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 1:49:28 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
Notice you did not address what I said about the icons of the democratic party relying on the same information Bush did regarding WMD and Sadaam.


Since I do not see a label "A" through "N" indicating what point your are trying to establish as being subject to Reasonable Doubt, I figure you didn't actually read the posting.

I think calling for the TRIAL of Bush et. al. for that Fraud committed in LYING TO CONGRESS about the alleged WMD Threat is all the indication needed of my feelings about "the icons of the democratic party" being defrauded.

If they made bad decisions, it was due to Bush et. al.s PREMEDITATED CHOICE to lie about the information Bush supplied to them, supposedly supporting those decisions.

Nothing in the Constitution or any Amendment give ANYONE in Government service the privilege of lying.

Maybe you go and actually READ what I posted.


Fargle, if we impeach every politician that has ever lied, we will be without a government. THEY ALL LIE! Every single one of them. And this is why they don't go after Bush for lying. The only reason Clinton got in trouble was because he lied under oath. So they were able to nail him. But Bush never lied under oath. He may have lied to the people, he may have lied to the camera, but when you look at the rest of congress....practically every one of them have done the exact same thing. They lied to gain power. And they will lie in order to keep it.

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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 3:18:14 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

And did you ever really find
When you closed your eyes
Any place
That was still
And at peace
 



< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 4/18/2007 3:19:15 PM >


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 3:28:31 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


Fargle, if we impeach every politician that has ever lied, we will be without a government.


I'm ok with that. Don't you think the few honest ones will be able to do all the actual WORK, rather than have a lot of free time to engage in shenanegens?

And for those keeping score, I'm not discussing impeachment. I'm talking INDICTMENT.

You know, what United States Attorneys do.

Well, used to do, anyway.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/18/2007 3:29:35 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 3:41:28 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Fargle, if we impeach every politician that has ever lied, we will be without a government.


I'm ok with that. Don't you think the few honest ones will be able to do all the actual WORK, rather than have a lot of free time to engage in shenanegens?

And for those keeping score, I'm not discussing impeachment. I'm talking INDICTMENT.

You know, what United States Attorneys do.

Well, used to do, anyway.



This was debated back in 1998. And is the reason why Ken Starr submitted a report to congress instead of seeking indictment.

I'm not a lawyer or an expert, but for some reason there is a belief that you cannot indict a sitting president. Why? I do not know.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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