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RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 6:34:21 PM   
Invictus754


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Joined: 12/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
And for those keeping score, I'm not discussing impeachment. I'm talking INDICTMENT.

You know, what United States Attorneys do.

Well, used to do, anyway.


With all the US Attorneys in his back pocket (a.k.a: loyal "Bushies") who is going to indict him?  He's screwed the system.

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 6:34:55 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
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Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11.

Saddam and Osama HATED.. as in: DESPISED each other... no collusion between them remotely credible.

Osama DENIED 9-11, with explanation: per his religious beliefs, killing innocents was unacceptable in the eyes of Mohammed... and those killed in 9-11 were innocents per Osama.

Iraq was The Only SECULAR state in the mideast... Read: The Most Stable of all the Arab nations.

Saddam was tried and executed in conveniently secretive kangaroo court style...

Google: Blowback.

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 6:42:24 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:


You said another stupid, stupid thing. There was no civil war prior to our invasion of Iraq. Nope...we should have allowed Sadaam to continue to thwart weapons inspectors, fire on our planes, etc. etc. etc. Tell me, is the chance that a country you are invading might lapse into civil war a legitimate reason for not invading them? Put the bong down.


I trimmed a lot of the babble until I got to this bit. First, do you feel better for venting? I hope so, because I didn't really bother reading any of your personal attacks.

What we have here is YOU are what we call a "Hamiltonian".

You subscribe to the "Liberal" interpretation of the Constitution promulgated by Alexander Hamiltion.

This "Liberal" interpretation permits what us "Jeffersonians" ( and/or "Jacksonians" ) consider Unconstitutional excesses, such as invading and occupying a Sovereign Nation without an Act of War, depriving Congress of their role in safeguarding us from entanglements such as the Iraqi Civil War and War of Kurdish Independence.

But, as they say. You broke it, You bought it. And since Congress is only going to go along MAX for another 6 months to a year, getting it fixed up should be the highest priority.

I would *like* to see Bush solve Iraq and beat whatever deadline Congress imposes by a couple of months.

fin'

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/18/2007 6:44:32 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 6:49:58 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Kiyari, I'm 43 and so I haven't enlisted.  But at 54, they wouldn't take you either even if you did support your country's efforts.


Aw... too danged bad on me... but then, I take a bit of issue with thy use of "your country"...

MY country is the USA bit of this North American continent...

The [unelected] government in state is none of my doing,
and IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO 'MY COUNTRY'
... just in case y'all was befuddled on that account, dahling.

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 6:50:29 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

BUT IN IRAQ, IT HAPPENS EVERY DAMN DAY.


Well, more people get killed in traffic every day in the US as well, I don't see any similar public outcry over that. Better example, IMO.

quote:

So, you might understand why the world doesn't give a shit about your grief.


This could have been put in a more civil tone, but I'll bite. It's not that we don't give a shit about their grief with regard to the VT shootings, because we do. It's that we don't have any sympathy with them as a nation, or with regard to the fallout in Iraq that they set themselves up for.

As a Lt. Cpt. from the USMC commented, Iraq, Gitmo, etc. have added up to a lot more people being negative about the US in every country of the world. Gitmo being the worse of the two in the countries that are allied with the US, Iraq being worse everywhere else.

Here in Norway, we're pretty pro-American, both politically and culturally, but I don't know many people who were for the war in Iraq, or who are sympathetic to the current problems the US is facing down there. A lot of people here are starting to worry about the US, and looking around for a sheepdog to face down the wolf.

I won't offer my own opinions. In this post, at least.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 6:57:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

We are fighting a war in Iraq that is in large part being funded and fueled by Iran.


Actually, if you paid attention to an interesting interview with a guy at Pentagon, which was quickly pulled from the air, Iran wanted the war in the first place. It's their stepping stone to a unified fundamentalist islamic state, as Iraq was one of the main barriers to them achieving this. The guy the US based a lot of their intel on even turned out to be an Iranian double-agent, and admitted to misleading them down this path.

But, yeah, Iran probably backs it. It ties up US resources with keeping the lid on the boiler, and sets things up for the eventual explosion and genocide.

quote:

Iraq is also in the midsts of a civil war.


Of course. Saddam was harsh, but there was a reason for it: the majority of the population belongs to a religious group that would like to wipe out a large minority of the population and return to fundamentalism. He didn't want any terrorism or out of control religious fanatics around.

The civil war is a logical consequence of the US going in there, and their actions since that point. Basically, everyone outside the US predicted this, along with the rise in global terrorism precipitated by events there.

quote:

Fargle's very tired and very boring song about "Bush Lied, Kids Died" and all that other horse sh*t fails to take into account that ALL LEADING DEMOCRATS believed that Saddam had or was attempting to have (which he was) weapons of mass destruction.


Quite possible. The rest of the world disagreed, though. And whether he tried to get any doesn't really matter ... they didn't have anything capable of carrying it over any significant distance, and nothing to gain from attacking anyone with a WMD.

The signal to the rest of the world was simple: if you don't have them yet, you'd better get them, or the US might just decide to invade. Many "rogue" nations have said as much.

quote:

Fargle, a card carrying liberal, likes to ignore what his liberal icons said and do his best Code Pink imitation: "Bush Lied, Kids Died".  blah blah blah


No need to insult him. His views aren't exactly uncommon nowadays.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:00:18 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

So don't give your "Bush's premeditated" bullsh*t.  Ok?

I'm not sure where you are pulling your information, but most of the links that I pulled basically said that the whole idea that Iraq had WMD was crap.  Here is a link to someone that WORKED for the Iraq program, and he calls it Iraqi WMD's "wishful thinking".
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/14630/

quote:


Iraq's Nuclear Weapon Program
Iraq began this effort at the Tuwaitha site in 1982 after Israel bombed Iraq's Osirak reactor.  According to Iraq's declarations to U.N. inspectors, it managed to produce 640 grams of enriched uranium with an average enrichment of 7.2% at Tuwaitha and some 685 grams at an average enrichment of 3% at Al Tarmiya.

All of your talk about Iraq's nuclear weapons program was from the 80s.  Also you quoted that they created 640 grams ( a whopping 22.8 ounces - yes OUNCES) of 7.2% enrichment.  So, how many bombs are you going to build with 23 ounces of material?  Twenty three ounces of enriched uranium scared the biggest nuclear power in the world?  Are you fucking kidding me?
 
quote:

Fargle, your America hating postings are really grating.  You'll look for anything you can to cast doubt on the current administration despite the fact everyone was sharing the same information.  You'll cry and weep over the people that are dying in Iraq but you ignore facts.  They are dying in large part to a civil war and are going to die regardless of whether we are there or not.  But that doesn't matter to you. 
You seem to gloss over the fact that this civil war was not happening BEFORE  the US stuck our big nose where it doesn't belong.   We should take the hit for fucking up.  The US is big enough, strong enough and should have the testicular fortitude to refrain from a "pre-emptive" strike.  However, we didn't.
quote:

All you want to do is talk about how terrible this administration is.  You ignore the fact that what is currently happening in Iraq will, in time, happen world wide as Islamo-Facism spreads. 
"Islamo-Facism" as you call it, wouldn't spread so fast if America wasn't the asshole of the world.  Imagine what our image would be if we spent 200 Billion dollars on infrastructure building, and not on killing people.
quote:

The United States is at the forefront of battling terrorism and if we fail, our darkest days are yet to come.  Perhaps you missed 9/11.  
More people die in highway accidents every year than died on 9/11.  Who is crying for them?  Why is 9/11 such a rally for us to stop terrorism?  The BEST way to stop terrorism is for America to stop trying to tell other countries what to do and talk to them to help them get to a better place, instead of holding aid as ransom so they will dance to our tune when we tell them to.
 
 


_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:01:22 PM   
lockedaway


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Smack Down!!

         "The War Against America, by Laurie Mylroie, is highly releveant now for several reasons.  Mylrorie has meticulously examined the evidence surrounding the 1993 conspiracy to bomb the World Trade Center--a conspiracy that failed in its key aim, to bring down the twin towers.  Her overriding concern, evident throughout these pages, was that the 1993 Trade Center bombing presaged futher attempts at terrorism on a massive scale on American soil.  She points clearly to the limitations of a strictly judicial inquiry into a case involving international terrorism.  Most dramatically, she shows that the question of the identity of the plot's mastermind, Ramzi Yousef--never to this date satisfactorily resolved--has very serious implications for our understanding of whether there was a government behind the first attack on the Trade Center.
         In our efforts to unravel the conspiracy behind the 2001 attack, we need to reexamine the evidence from the 1993 attack, which was never (as this book demonstrates) satisfactorily explained.  Mylroie argues compellingly that the lack of official attention to the international context of the 1993 attack, and particularly the failure to address the question of state sponsorship of the terrorists who carried it out, helped leave America open to further terrorism.
         The War Against America presents careful and lucid analysis of the 1993 attack.  The central argument of this brilliant and brave book is that the Iraqi government was key in the planning and implementation of the attack and, more specifically, that Ramzi Yousef was himself an Iraqi intelligence agent.  This was in fact the tentative conclusion reached by the veteran counterterrorism expert Jim Fox, then director of the New York Field Office of the FBI, who led the investigation until early 1994.
         Instead of directly addressing Fox's strong suspicions that Iraq was behind the 1993 bombing, however, the Clinton administration chose to treat this act of terrorism purely as a law enforcement issue.  Emphasis was placed on arresting individuals, trying them in court, and securing convictions.  The conventional wisdom (promoted by the administration) that soon emerged regarded this and indeed most any terrorist attack on the United States as the likely product of a "loose network" of folks who just somehow got together or, later, as the exclusive work of the elusive network-meister bin Laden.  The possibility of state sponsorship, especially by Iraq, was in effect not on the official agenda.

R. James Woolsey
Director CIA

There's more.  If you want, I'll give you my cell phone number so I can read the book to you since you will never read it on your own.  I must say, you keep great company with Fargle and dcnovice.  Too bad YOU'RE WRONG!  Try getting behind your country...it's the only one you've got.

(in reply to kiyari)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:01:34 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn

That doesn't lessen what those involved in the shooting are going through.  That logic doesn't work, in my opinion.


Of course not. I suspect he was pointing out that there's a lot more coverage of the VT incident than of tragedies of equal or greater proportions, and that people are crying out to do things about the VT incident, but not doing so with regards to traffic safety, Gitmo, etc.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LadyJulieAnn)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:04:15 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Locked ---

You seem very passionate about the war in Iraq. Have you thought of enlisting?


This must be the best post I've seen so far. "Put your money where your mouth is", as the saying goes. If the war (and it is still as much a war as it ever was) is justified, then one would assume those who really believe in it would do their bit, so those who don't believe in it avoid being drafted.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:07:06 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
Kiyari, I'm 43 and so I haven't enlisted.  But at 54, they wouldn't take you either even if you did support your country's efforts.


So, basically what you are saying is that you have never had the balls to serve your country, but you are willing to let the President throw away 4000 lives just because he is a prick.  Nice.  Yellow is your color, and you wear it very well.

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:08:54 PM   
LadyIce


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Status: offline
Fargle you are correct in the way that this is how Iraqis live everyday.
But, I think many people feel that the tragedy at VA Tech was disturbing.
At least I hope they do.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:12:44 PM   
lockedaway


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Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
"You seem to gloss over the fact that this civil war was not happening BEFORE  the US stuck our big nose where it doesn't belong.   We should take the hit for fucking up.  The US is big enough, strong enough and should have the testicular fortitude to refrain from a "pre-emptive" strike.  However, we didn't."
 
I didn't gloss over anything, Invictus (too bad McVeigh ruined that poem, eh?).  I said that Iraq was embroiled in a civil war was an irrelevant concern with respect as to whether we had sufficient reasons to invade Iraq.  By the way...try to get this...we had sufficient reason to invade Iraq and remove Sadaam simply based on Sadaam's violations of U.N. resolutions and firing on U.S. warplanes.  You don't like the war?  I get the impression that you would not support any war...period...nada...zip.  Should we have not stopped Sadaam's acid baths?  Should we have not retaliated for shooting at our planes?  Should we not have retaliated against his thwarting weapons inspections?  The answer is yes and I'm glad we did.
 
With respect to Sadaam's nuclear aspirations, enriched uranium was found in Iraq after we invaded.  Do I care whether he was ten days away from making a bomb or ten years?  No.  I don't.  I understand it would be important to you to thwart his future nuclear aspirations...but that would probably be after we got bombed.
 
America is the big asshole of the world?  Please tell me you live in Canada or at least with dcnovice.  I would like to think that you folks cluster together.  America is responsible for bringing more freedom to the world than any nation on earth....ever.  If it wasn't for the United States, hundreds of millions of people would still be yoked under failed communist systems all over the globe. 
 
I am going to assume that you are an American.  If so I find it enormously unfortunate that you feel your country is the asshole of the world.   Should you ever decide to renounce your citizenship and move to another, however, let me know.

(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:14:32 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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I'm sorry, this last post is just too stupid to respond to.  Hey...I  will help pay your relocation costs if you move out of the U.S. assuming your a citizen.  It would be nice to see you go.

(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:19:52 PM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline
It would be nice to see everyone lose the personal attacks too.  Please tone it down.

XI

_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:27:49 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

"The War Against America, by Laurie Mylroie, is highly releveant now for several reasons. [...] Her overriding concern, evident throughout these pages, was that the 1993 Trade Center bombing presaged futher attempts at terrorism on a massive scale on American soil.


First off, there was a warning issued by the intelligence service prior to the attack, and it had a lot more detail. It got ignored, probably because it wasn't labeled in any particular way, and because the people who were supposed to read it didn't bother for that exact reason.

Second, there have been no massive acts of terrorism on American soil. Sep 11 saw a few thousand people dead. More people die in traffic every year. This doesn't even rank if compared to some of the American acts of terrorism on foreign soil. No, I'm not talking about Iraq, that might be legitimate, depending on who you ask. I'm thinking about the stuff Powell commented on not being very proud of. You google it. You might want to start with the same date in a different year...

Third, the only thing that changed with the attacks of Sep 11, was that terrorism for once had its intended effect on a larger opponent, much in the style of David and Goliath. Noam Chomsky puts this more clearly than I can, so google him. As far as a lot of people are concerned, myself (a European) and most Americans I know included, the terrorists have won. They got what they came for. With just a little bit of effort, they set the ball rolling, and the US govt is completing their job for them, with the aid of the media.

quote:

Instead of directly addressing Fox's strong suspicions that Iraq was behind the 1993 bombing, however, the Clinton administration chose to treat this act of terrorism purely as a law enforcement issue.  Emphasis was placed on arresting individuals, trying them in court, and securing convictions.


This has worked well for every other civilized nation that has lived with terrorism, and there's no indication the "new" approach is faring any better.

quote:

There's more.  If you want, I'll give you my cell phone number so I can read the book to you since you will never read it on your own.  I must say, you keep great company with Fargle and dcnovice.  Too bad YOU'RE WRONG!


How about you read some Chomsky instead: "9/11", "Hegemony and Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance", "Imperial Ambitions - Conversations on the post-9/11 world", "Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy" and "Perilous Power: The Middle East and U.S. Foreign Policy. Dialogues on Terror, Democracy, War and Justice".

As I'm sure you know, it's always good to be exposed to an opposing view as well, and Chomsky is very concise and coherent, as he should be, given his contributions to the study of language. I may dislike his political alignment, but his argumentation with regard to politics and public matters is some of the best stuff out there. Not many people can "win" an argument by sticking to the facts the other side hasn't disputed, and he's made a habit of doing just that in many cases.

quote:

Try getting behind your country...it's the only one you've got.


No. Contrary to the beliefs of some, there is a world outside the USA. And while the US is reluctant to accept others moving there or even visiting, the rest of the world are generally more than happy to accept US citizens that want to move to a democratic nation.

No offense. Just sticking to the facts, although the details on my first paragraph are sketchy.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:30:49 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Try getting behind your country...it's the only one you've got.


Go re-read the Declaration of Independence.

"Countries" are transient entities, to be reformed whenever, and however The People wish.

Here's a quick chart.

1. Your G-d. ( Your Mileage May Vary )

2. Your Conscience

3. Your Children

4. Your Spouse

5. You.

6. Kin

7. Neighbors

8. STATE

9. The Damned Feds can worry about raising armies once Congress declares War.





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:32:21 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
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I HAVE read some of Chomsky's stuff.  I think he is reprehensible.  His stuff has been picked apart and it don't have to copy and paste it here.  If you are a Chomsky fan then you are of a certain political bent that will never ben changed irrespective of how much debate there is on a topic.  Right?  C'mon...say it...your mind is NOT going to be changed no matter what evidence may be introduced that contradicts your position.  Your position is set in stone.  You like Chomsky?  Good for you, we are diametrically opposed to each other politically.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:33:47 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Second, there have been no massive acts of terrorism on American soil. Sep 11 saw a few thousand people dead. More people die in traffic every year.


I have to disagree with you there. Even if more people die in traffic, killing three thousand or so people in a single blow is pretty dramatic. Also, the attacks completely obliterated two enormous buildings--an entire zip code, as the New Yorker pointed out--forever altering the NY skyline. I really do think 9/11 qualifies as massive.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: VA Tech shooting -- It's how Iraqis LIVE every day... - 4/18/2007 7:42:25 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
Chomsky's one of the Libertarian-Socialists, who, like all Libertarian stripes will alway be limited in their ability to engage the public effectively ( vis. "Political Success" whatever THAT is worth... )...

in the Libertarian-Socialists' specific case, it's the abolition of private property/workers control production thing.

N.B.: I'm ADAMANTLY against the abolition of Private property. It was one of Locke's big things... Life, Liberty, Property... Never got why Jefferson didn't think it was sufficient.... Anyway... I digress. -- Workers Control Production? Yeah, I'm ALL FOR "Flattened Hierarchies" ( or "Piles" ) myself... Think of it as each "Corporation" is an "Economic Democracy", where "One Share == One Vote" sorta thing, as JUST AS VALID as the "Asshole Rules Top Down" model we see today...



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/18/2007 7:47:01 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 60
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