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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 6:00:54 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The only way to change the constitution or the bill of rights is with a constitutional convention. "

Uh... There IS an accepted Amendment Process which doesn't require a Constitutional Convention.



farglebargle:
The ammendment process cannot overturn the constitution nor the bill of rights.  It can ammend the constitution.  It can ammend or overturn  ammendments subsequent to the bill of rights.  I am sure you will agree it is not an easy process.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/20/2007 6:04:47 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 6:01:16 PM   
sonny2000


Posts: 60
Joined: 3/16/2005
Status: offline 		Guns cause crime like flies cause garbage

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 6:08:28 PM   
GrizzlyBear


Posts: 278
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Missoula Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The only way to change the constitution or the bill of rights is with a constitutional convention. "

Uh... There IS an accepted Amendment Process which doesn't require a Constitutional Convention.



farglebargle:
The ammendment process cannot overturn the constitution nor the bill of rights.  It can modify or overturn those ammendments subsequent to the bill of rights.  I think you will agree that the ammendment process is not an easy one.  Certainly one that is not subject to the mind set of mob rule.
thompson


There is no limit to what an amendment can do.  Anything in the original Constitution or any of its amendments can be changed.   All you have to do is get a 2/3 majority vote by both House and Senat, and a vote for ratification by 3/4 of all state legislatures.  No, its not easy.  The Equal Rights Amendment failed ratification.  An amendment to repeal the 2nd amendment?  I don't think so.  Not impossible to do, but not very likely that it will happen.


_____________________________

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"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
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(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 6:16:03 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The only way to change the constitution or the bill of rights is with a constitutional convention. "

Uh... There IS an accepted Amendment Process which doesn't require a Constitutional Convention.




yeh isnt it like 75/25 or something like that?  that mey be beer analysis too at this point LOL


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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 6:16:40 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The only way to change the constitution or the bill of rights is with a constitutional convention. "

Uh... There IS an accepted Amendment Process which doesn't require a Constitutional Convention.



farglebargle:
The ammendment process cannot overturn the constitution nor the bill of rights. It can ammend the constitution. It can ammend or overturn ammendments subsequent to the bill of rights. I am sure you will agree it is not an easy process.
thompson


In case you missed the distinction, the "Bill of Rights" ARE Amendments, and therefore subject to that Amendment process.

And of course the Constitiution can be changed. The Constitution says Senators are elected by the State, while the 17th Amendment changes that to Direct Elections.

It's all academic, thought, isn't it?


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(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 6:24:19 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrizzlyBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The only way to change the constitution or the bill of rights is with a constitutional convention. "

Uh... There IS an accepted Amendment Process which doesn't require a Constitutional Convention.



farglebargle:
The ammendment process cannot overturn the constitution nor the bill of rights.  It can modify or overturn those ammendments subsequent to the bill of rights.  I think you will agree that the ammendment process is not an easy one.  Certainly one that is not subject to the mind set of mob rule.
thompson


There is no limit to what an amendment can do.  Anything in the original Constitution or any of its amendments can be changed.   All you have to do is get a 2/3 majority vote by both House and Senat, and a vote for ratification by 3/4 of all state legislatures.  No, its not easy.  The Equal Rights Amendment failed ratification.  An amendment to repeal the 2nd amendment?  I don't think so.  Not impossible to do, but not very likely that it will happen.



ok kool, thanks, back to my brewski and this game handing me my ass on a platter LOL


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to GrizzlyBear)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 6:53:21 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The only way to change the constitution or the bill of rights is with a constitutional convention. "

Uh... There IS an accepted Amendment Process which doesn't require a Constitutional Convention.



farglebargle:
The ammendment process cannot overturn the constitution nor the bill of rights. It can ammend the constitution. It can ammend or overturn ammendments subsequent to the bill of rights. I am sure you will agree it is not an easy process.
thompson


In case you missed the distinction, the "Bill of Rights" ARE Amendments, and therefore subject to that Amendment process.
There is more than a little disagreement about the first ten and the ammendment process to modify them.


And of course the Constitiution can be changed. The Constitution says Senators are elected by the State, while the 17th Amendment changes that to Direct Elections.
Isn't that what I said?  Ammended, modified but not overturned. It is not an easy process that would lend itself to the mind set of "mob rule".

It's all academic, thought, isn't it?


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 7:03:29 PM   
SkatDomina


Posts: 14
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to to defend guns with statistics when they are faced with ones like these:-

American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States.

 The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 7:19:55 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Research the Washington DC murder rate and its gun laws. It has the strictest gun-laws in the country and the highest murder rate.


I'm not sure the part about our murder rate is still true. According to Fox News, New Orleans is now the nation's murder capital.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Hime)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 7:46:49 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline 		New orleans and DC often flip flop for this superlative over the years. Nevertheless, the state of affairs in NOLA has more to do with the hurricane and the resulting aftermath this time around than anything else.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 9:14:20 PM   
lovewithoutfear


Posts: 153
Joined: 7/11/2005
Status: offline 		"the non-gun homicide rate in this country is three times higher than the non-gun homicide rate in England. For historical and cultural reasons, Americans are a more violent people than the English, even when they can't use a gun."

Well then, to me it seems that it's this that needs to change, not access to firearms.

(in reply to selfbnd411)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/20/2007 9:19:41 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Seeks, one word, immigration. Seems we don't have enough home grown "bad guys" so the lefties think we should import them from third world countries because they're "underprivilidged."


This assumes that most criminals are immigrants. Anyone know if that's actually the case?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 3:08:17 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		General reply to the subject -
 
From the BBC,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6562529.stm
 
"How does the US compare with other countries around the world?

Accurate figures on firearms are scarce, but there are an estimated 200 million guns in circulation in the US, a country with a population of about 300 million.

According to a Harris poll conducted in 2001, approximately 39% of all American households own at least one gun.

The risk of being killed by a firearm in the US is higher than in any other Western nation. Of countries outside war zones, the risk is greatest in South Africa, according to a United Nations report.

(Graphic image available on link, cannot post it here because of forum rules)

There are no recent statistics available but UN figures from 2000 showed for every 10,000 Americans, 0.3 were killed by firearms, compared with 0.01 in the UK where handgun ownership was banned in 1997.

In Switzerland where every man of military age is required to keep a gun at home as part of the country's civil defence policy, the number of deaths per 10,000 population was 0.05.

In South Africa it was 7.1 for every 10,000 people. "


(Format edit)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 4/21/2007 3:09:02 AM >

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(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 3:47:09 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrizzlyBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The only way to change the constitution or the bill of rights is with a constitutional convention. "

Uh... There IS an accepted Amendment Process which doesn't require a Constitutional Convention.



farglebargle:
The ammendment process cannot overturn the constitution nor the bill of rights.  It can modify or overturn those ammendments subsequent to the bill of rights.  I think you will agree that the ammendment process is not an easy one.  Certainly one that is not subject to the mind set of mob rule.
thompson


There is no limit to what an amendment can do.  Anything in the original Constitution or any of its amendments can be changed.   All you have to do is get a 2/3 majority vote by both House and Senat, and a vote for ratification by 3/4 of all state legislatures.  No, its not easy.  The Equal Rights Amendment failed ratification.  An amendment to repeal the 2nd amendment?  I don't think so.  Not impossible to do, but not very likely that it will happen.


GrizzlyBear:
There is some debate among constitutional scholars about this very point.  Most agree that the original ten ammendments to the constitution are sacrosanct and that any functional change to the constitution is also.  That being said it would appear that the patriot act has made this a moot point because at this point in our history we are being ruled and not governed by presidential decree.
thompson

(in reply to GrizzlyBear)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 4:32:14 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Again lets look at what goes into those deaths of children stats
According to the definition they used 18 and 19 year old gang members who kill each other are "Children"
Remove those deaths since they are not "children" and the figure drops considerably.

15 year olds death rates can also be attributed in large part to gang culture in US urban areas. Remove the gang problem and a large part of that statistic goes away.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 4:48:52 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Again lets look at what goes into those deaths of children stats
According to the definition they used 18 and 19 year old gang members who kill each other are "Children"
Remove those deaths since they are not "children" and the figure drops considerably.

15 year olds death rates can also be attributed in large part to gang culture in US urban areas. Remove the gang problem and a large part of that statistic goes away.


Archer:
This is a tactic that the "Brady Bunch" uses all the time to inflate their stats.  Now if we were to include some marksmanship training for the gangsters we could also expect to see a drop in the deaths due to colateral damage.  I wish I had the link to the vidio on u tube that speaks to this problem of marksmanship...it is done by a latino comedian named Macies* I believe.  If anyone has the link please post it.
thompson

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 5:04:03 AM   
james66


Posts: 28
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline 		Of course guns cause crime! Its logical. Take them away and people don't shoot people...simple as that really. Or you could take the bullets away..... This really isn't a discussion. If you can't speak you can't swear. If you break someones legs they can't walk. If you don't sell guns people don't shoot.

On the other hand...and this the logic to be found around here, if everyone was carrying guns om the virginia campus, then only two or three whould have died befor the killer was apprehended.....a suttle argument that one!


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 5:07:01 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		opportunity abounds.  locks dont cause criminals, they only keep the honest people out.

Ron


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 5:19:40 AM   
untamedshysub


Posts: 220
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		I grew up in Louisana, and my uncle and grandfather kept at least 20 riflies loaded at the front door and handguns througout the house, they were hunters its what they did for a living, I could shoot by the time I was seven , yet I knew not to touch the guns and that it was not to ever be pointed at a person or animal . I had a horrible temper and whenI was pregant with my twins over 22 yrs ago my husband did something very stupid one day and the guns in the closet told me to take it out and shoot him so instead I called a girlfirend to come and get me and I spent some time at her house until I cooled off , then I told him and the guns left the house. Its not  guns its people and emotions.  Gun control is a joke anyone can purchase a gun. What happen last week is our societies head in the sand approach to mental illness.  How we react to it, how  the person is treated who suffers from it, and how we pay for it.  I agree something needs to change but it needs to be more basic than gun control , how we view people with mental illiness , insurance coverage for it to be treated needs a major overhaul, and helping people who are mentally ill to accept themselves. I have a sucidial teen have been fighting to get her the help she needs for six years and have been successful because I can be a pit bull when necessary. (I know an oxymoron a pit bull sub laughs} A law was recently passed in New york state that mandates insurance companies treat mental health like any other illness and the co pay be the same as a dr visit.I think it should be a federal law and cover all states. But sometimes change comes one state at a time.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 5:37:13 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Population of the
U.S. 302 Million
U.K.  60.2 million
France 65 Million
Swiss 7.5 Million
Canada 32 Million

Gee, I wonder why our stats are higher than European countries.
Maybe because it's like comparing Watermelons to Raspberries.

(in reply to untamedshysub)
Profile   Post #: 60
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