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RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 5:45:59 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SkatDomina

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to to defend guns with statistics when they are faced with ones like these:-

American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States.

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

Where did those numbers come from?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to SkatDomina)

Post #: 61

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 5:49:38 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Population of the
U.S. 302 Million
U.K. 60.2 million
France 65 Million
Swiss 7.5 Million
Canada 32 Million

Gee, I wonder why our stats are higher than European countries.
Maybe because it's like comparing Watermelons to Raspberries.

In terms of gun related murders, it's nothing to do with population. In England and Wales, 50 people were killed in gun related murders in 2006. That's 50 of 50 million people, so in proportion you would expect the figure to be 300 in the US. I don't know the stats, but I would guess it is significantly higher.

You have more gun related murders due to a difference in culture and politics, nothing to do with population size.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 62

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 6:10:41 AM

His1kitten

Posts: 53
Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: His1kitten

i do believe that a total ban on semi-automatic and automatic weapons needs to be done.

Would you care to explain why you have those beliefs?

What need is there for them in the first place? There is only one thing i can see a use for weapons such as those, mass killings.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 63

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 6:37:24 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

Genocides and mass killings are always perpetrated on people that lack the weapons to defend themselves.

It is for this reason that anyone that advocates gun control and disarmament by definition is an accomplice in any genocide and mass killing and murder and crimes that will occur as a result of such measures, as well as an accomplice after the fact of any genocides and mass killings that have already occurred - and there have been lots of those.

(in reply to His1kitten)

Post #: 64

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 6:56:46 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Genocides and mass killings are always perpetrated on people that lack the weapons to defend themselves.

It is for this reason that anyone that advocates gun control and disarmament by definition is an accomplice in any genocide and mass killing and murder and crimes that will occur as a result of such measures, as well as an accomplice after the fact of any genocides and mass killings that have already occurred - and there have been lots of those.

You do realise that this is bullshit? Mass murder has never depended on one side being armed and the other not, it is a far more insidious process than that.

People are big on talk about what they would do if they were in danger and how they will make the other side pay in spilt blood but the truth is that most people go quietly to their deaths, it is something in human psychology. Preventing mass murder is more about people's minds than handing guns out to everyone.

By the way, everyone having guns in Iraq isn't stopping mass murder.

Actually what good would being armed have done the Jews in WWII, they were dispersed around the continent and any sign of resistance the Nazis would ahve just laid waste to where they lived with small arms being rather ineffective against tanks. The best way to make sure something like the holocaust doesn't happen again is through hearts and minds.

However, those people that keep talking about Eurabia make me realise that the holocaust taught some people nothing.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/21/2007 7:16:33 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 65

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 7:23:23 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

Actually what good would being armed have done the Jews in WWII

If the German PEOPLE hadn't been disarmed by the 1928 law, WWII wouldn't have happened. Hitler clamped down even more in 1938, but the fact that The People were impotent to remove their dysfunctional government is why Hitler was able to assume such control, etc.

The United States as a Constitutional Republic was BORN out of violent rebellion from a bunch of people, who when you think about it aren't all that much different... If taking up arms against the forces of George III was necessary, they knew that it would LIKELY be needed again, hence the enshrinement of the right to keep and bear arms.

The Framers didn't go running for a cop to deal with a ruffian, mugger, etc... They would have simply shot them dead.

Duals were between Gentleman. In the case of Hamilton, I use the word "Gentleman" liberally.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/21/2007 7:28:22 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 66

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 7:52:31 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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I had to post this...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/ap_on_re_us/brave_beauty_queen

God(dess) helps those who help themselves.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 67

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 8:36:34 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Actually what good would being armed have done the Jews in WWII

If the German PEOPLE hadn't been disarmed by the 1928 law, WWII wouldn't have happened. Hitler clamped down even more in 1938, but the fact that The People were impotent to remove their dysfunctional government is why Hitler was able to assume such control, etc.

Hitler was popular and the German population didn't take too much persuading that Jews had to go. The one thing that might have stopped WWII was a comprehensive peace process after WWI that all countries could live with. That never happened and the German officier class were discussing getting even with France as early as 1920. No one was that interested in removing Hitler, his government wasn't seen as that dysfunctional, he had given Germany back some national self respect. Onece Germany started to expand, there were more than enough willing accomplices in the holocaust.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
The United States as a Constitutional Republic was BORN out of violent rebellion from a bunch of people, who when you think about it aren't all that much different... If taking up arms against the forces of George III was necessary, they knew that it would LIKELY be needed again, hence the enshrinement of the right to keep and bear arms.

The rebellion was as much a civil war and it was only half heartedly fought by the British. Half of the British Parliament sympathised with the rebels and it was very difficult to get resources to fund the war because so many Brits didn't want to pay for the war. It was something akin to the US in Vietnam. Britain had no strategy, very little support at home and not a clue as to what to do with the place should they have won. If Britain could have resourced the war properly, had a national consensus that the war had to be fought and won, it might have got somewhere. Many colonists sat on the fence and waited to see which way the wind blew.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 68

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 10:26:20 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: His1kitten

What need is there for them in the first place? There is only one thing i can see a use for weapons such as those, mass killings.

It seems you lack a fundamental understanding of what a free society is.

Do we need expensive clothes? it seems they give those without a lower feeling of worth since they cannot have them

Do we need Alcohol? it seems it is only good for impairing judgment, which only leeds to all sorts of consequences, including fatal ones.

If we legislated by need you would be clad in burlap, and riding a Schwinn from your efficiency to the grocery store which now sells zero junk food or alcohol.

If you don't have a compelling reason to ban or regulate something then there is no reason to do so. When it is clear statistically that they are relatively benign as a public health hazard, all people have is I don't like them, they scare me, and I don't approve of what they were made for. None of these are acceptable reasons for regulation.

(in reply to His1kitten)

Post #: 69

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 10:54:37 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SkatDomina

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to to defend guns with statistics when they are faced with ones like these:-

American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States.

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

Oh yes... "BAN GUNS.... IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN".I think that bumpersticker is available in the Brady Center gift shop, and it is the most tired appeal to emotion in the book

You know what's a real hoot? http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html
There you can plug in the numbers and ferret out the BS once and for all.

According to the numbers that I have plugged in, ALL firearms deaths (intentional and accidental) for the age group <0-17 is 1,385 out of a children's population of 73,258,205 in the year 2004

It turns out the number of pedestrian deaths for children is a real epidmemic at 737. Where are our crossing guards, Mr. Bush? The asphalt is bathed in the blood of innocents, and it is on your hands!

BAN CROSSWALKS... IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!!!

OMG... Drowning was 976!!! Did you know that my child could walk into a Wal-mart and just walk out with kiddie pool and bottled water?! No background check...nothing. And all the irresponsible homeowners in America... they leave these ammo dumps called garden hoses attached to their homes UNLOCKED! Why is there no regulation on running water and these drowning devices! Why, these greedy companies even decorate these death traps with cartoon characters and artwork to ATTRACT children to their watery graves!!! Regulation and litigation. We must save the children!

Motor vehicles.... 4,600-4,900 depending on the statistics. I think I have made my point.

Enough sensationalizing this nonsense. Pretending the Constitution and the legal amendment process doesn't exist (which this society does anyway) if you have the beef with a freedom, then it's on you to show why it should be restricted. There is NO statistical support for your cause.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/21/2007 10:55:44 AM >

(in reply to SkatDomina)

Post #: 70

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 11:42:17 AM

His1kitten

Posts: 53
Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: His1kitten

What need is there for them in the first place? There is only one thing i can see a use for weapons such as those, mass killings.

It seems you lack a fundamental understanding of what a free society is.

Do we need expensive clothes? it seems they give those without a lower feeling of worth since they cannot have them

Do we need Alcohol? it seems it is only good for impairing judgment, which only leeds to all sorts of consequences, including fatal ones.

If we legislated by need you would be clad in burlap, and riding a Schwinn from your efficiency to the grocery store which now sells zero junk food or alcohol.

If you don't have a compelling reason to ban or regulate something then there is no reason to do so. When it is clear statistically that they are relatively benign as a public health hazard, all people have is I don't like them, they scare me, and I don't approve of what they were made for. None of these are acceptable reasons for regulation.

I would like to hear a compelling reason they should be sold. I have yet to hear one. They are for one of two things I can see, someone to just be able to say they have one, and the other would be for someone to commit mayhem. Neither of those are acceptable to me. These are my beliefs and I stand by them.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 71

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 11:49:27 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

yeh saving the children and global are the 2 latest buzz words for when all else fails.

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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 72

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 11:53:03 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: His1kitten

I would like to hear a compelling reason they should be sold. I have yet to hear one. They are for one of two things I can see, someone to just be able to say they have one, and the other would be for someone to commit mayhem. Neither of those are acceptable to me. These are my beliefs and I stand by them.

It seems to me they provide a sense of virility for people with a low self esteem and like fast cars, they are a sort of penis extension.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to His1kitten)

Post #: 73

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 12:07:32 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: His1kitten

I would like to hear a compelling reason they should be sold. I have yet to hear one. They are for one of two things I can see, someone to just be able to say they have one, and the other would be for someone to commit mayhem. Neither of those are acceptable to me. These are my beliefs and I stand by them.

It seems to me they provide a sense of virility for people with a low self esteem and like fast cars, they are a sort of penis extension.

Well, I certainly don't suffer from low self esteem, have no desire or use for a sense if virility. I drive a really slow and ugly vehicle because it fits my needs. Penis extensions???....well that would be about as useful to me as tits on a boar hog. But I do own an SKS which is basically the same thing as an AK. I use mine for hunting....and so do many, many others. As a matter of fact it is a very popular hunting choice here.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 74

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 1:18:45 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

opportunity abounds. locks dont cause criminals, they only keep the honest people out.

Ron

Ron:
Honest people do not steal. All locks do is keep out the amature thieves.
thompson

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 75

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 1:25:31 PM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: His1kitten
I would like to hear a compelling reason they should be sold. I have yet to hear one. They are for one of two things I can see, someone to just be able to say they have one, and the other would be for someone to commit mayhem. Neither of those are acceptable to me. These are my beliefs and I stand by them.

It will be my absolute pleasure to enlighten you as to why they should be sold to the law-abiding public.

1. We have something known as the Bill of Rights which specifies the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Thus, if the Constitution explicitly authorized the right to bear arms I can think of no better, nor more compelling reason than that.

2. As an American you live in a sheltered little bubble where you are relatively assured of order and personal safety. We have seen many times however, that when that social order is threatened, the impacted area of society is the embodiment of "mayhem". I was ignorant in my youth and even remember posing the question "who needs an assault rifle". There was no pulpsmack to set me straight so it took me some time to answer that question. The answer is simple: the reason for law abiding citizens to have access to assault rifles is to STOP MAYHEM

The LA riots of the 1990s showed that armed business owners perched atop their livelihoods with longarms dissuaded rioters and looters from attacking their stores. Police could not be relied upon to defend these businesses, given the situation. The system failed these individuals, but their own level of preparedness and their ability to defend themselves and their property did.

Then there was the LA Shootout where the bankrobbers armed with body armor and machineguns, held the police at bay with a barrage of bullets. Return fire was repelled by the body armor. It wasn't until the police entered a gun store that sold semi-automatic assault weapons to the public and procurred a few, did the tide turn.

Hurricane Katrina is the most current and shining example of justification for the ownership of "assault weapons". There the police force was completely ineffective and all hell broke loose for days. Businesses were looted and vandalized, people were being robbed, raped, and murdered. The police were not only impotent, they were drawing fire from criminals. Bear in mind that this affected my area and I did in fact turn to my assault rifles. I had no need to use them in my area in hindsight (but that was not assured the first 2 days of the chaos).

So, to answer your question, "What compelling reason is there for having access to assault rifles" I give you the Second Amendment and emergency preparedness AKA, STOPPING MAYHEM.

Then you can simply add on top of that there are a variety of assault weapon platforms that make for ideal hunting choices, they are a great addition to special interest history buffs for reenactments, and finally they are among some of the most fun and interesting choices for competitive and recreational shooting.

...And according to Meatcleaver, they boost self-esteem to those with penis issues.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/21/2007 1:37:56 PM >

(in reply to His1kitten)

Post #: 76

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 1:30:04 PM

Aileen68

Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It seems to me they provide a sense of virility for people with a low self esteem and like fast cars, they are a sort of penis extension.

If I have to pull a gun out and load it in my home, it means that something bad is happening. That does not thrill me or make me happy. I have no desire to kill someone. I don't ever wish for that. But if someone enters my home and knows that I am there and chooses to stay...I will shoot to kill them.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 77

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 1:39:57 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It seems to me they provide a sense of virility for people with a low self esteem and like fast cars, they are a sort of penis extension.

If I have to pull a gun out and load it in my home, it means that something bad is happening. That does not thrill me or make me happy. I have no desire to kill someone. I don't ever wish for that. But if someone enters my home and knows that I am there and chooses to stay...I will shoot to kill them.

Hmm American soldiers after they had shot up several families in cars approaching check points in Iraq, said they shot because they were in fear of their lives. They might have been in fear of their lives but innocent families were shot dead because they believed an event was happening that wasn't. So called trained people make terrible blunders when they are shitting themselves. You don't know who you might innocently kill.

If someone is going to kill you in a domestic setting, the chances are you know them and probably the thought of pulling out a gun won't enter your head.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/21/2007 2:02:32 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Aileen68)

Post #: 78

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 2:09:40 PM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If someone is going to kill you in a domestic setting, the chances are you know them and probably the thought of pulling out a gun won't enter your head.

I have no idea where you got that assertion from, but rolling with it for a moment...

If you are going to be involved in an auto accident, the chances are that it will be within 0-10 miles of your home.

So don't even bother wearing your seatbelt once you pass 10 miles?

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/21/2007 2:10:05 PM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 79

RE: Interesting stats on guns and crime - 4/21/2007 2:56:17 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

Pulpsmack,

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, as I've never really thought about owning guns. I do take the point though that a gun doesn't kill people, and a small percentage of crimes shouldn't be the basis for restricting civil liberties. If it were, then in Britian, there'd be no beer and no pubs open (as anti-social behaviour is heavily influenced by too much beer here), and as it's ingrained in our culture, as guns are in your culture, then we'd be more than pissed off about it - might even take to owning a few guns to protect our thousands of years of beer drinking tradition.

The only doubt in my mind is that a gun enables someone to go on a killing spree whereas it would be much more difficult with a knife, the chances of killing 30 people with a knife is non-existent. How does this fit with your defence of gun ownership?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 80

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